p.3 #1 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
sungphoto wrote:
I think most of the time these issues on the Z8 and Z9 are due to camera setup or user technique. The Z6 and Z7 for sure have issues, but to be honest what you're describing doesn't make sense to me. I think we all want quick answers ie but I think in the long run, usually the answer is keep practicing..
The same users with the same techniques and the same camera settings have great results when the lighting isn't such that you might need a flash. Some of us are quite accomplished, in fact. How do you explain this?
I agree I can't explain what is going on and why there are such disparate experiences, but blaming this on user technique really makes no sense when the same users have no problems in other situations or when they can achieve great results using other cameras in the same situations.
Is there some obscure setting making the difference? Maybe? If so, what? I've tested just about every setting that could even by a big stretch be considered to relate to focus in low light.
But to help narrow it down, please do answer if you would, do you use back button focus? Do you shoot in AF-C? Do you shoot half-body or head shots, or moreso full body? Do you have lots of the display features turned on when shooting? Do you use VR?
Knowing how people with no problems are operating as far as these things go may help narrow down the cause.
p.3 #2 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
Per thom's book, the AF is tied to how bright the viewfinder appears. If you're shooting flash and (for example) are seeing the dark ambient exposure, your AF will suffer. If you throw on ease of viewing, it'll AF better.
Also, it's almost entirely dependent on how fast your lens is. The 50 1.2 will focus far more reliably than slower lenses. (Less noise in a brighter image = better AF)
I shoot in extreme low light (think proms lit by maybe one dj light) so you're not gonna get lower than that ususally.
p.3 #3 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
SCoombs wrote:
Yes, this applies to all subjects - or all living ones, anyways. I also see it with the animal and bird modes when shooting those creatures, but not as often. Others above have also talked about seeing it with engagement shoots, etc.
I haven't noticed the issue as much with bird/animal mode and in fact, I've been generally extremely pleased with those scenarios (with one or two exceptions). But as you've observed, for portraits of people in lower light, it has been hit or miss in AF-C.
p.3 #4 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
nataphoto wrote:
Per thom's book, the AF is tied to how bright the viewfinder appears. If you're shooting flash and (for example) are seeing the dark ambient exposure, your AF will suffer. If you throw on ease of viewing, it'll AF better.
Yeah, that's how it works with my Sony mirrorless too. When using a flash in low light or when ambient light is really dim, I have to turn off "exposure preview" so the camera brightens up the VF/LCD preview to a constant level or else the AF can't focus in the dark. Turning it off disables WYSIWYG.
p.3 #5 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
nataphoto wrote:
Per thom's book, the AF is tied to how bright the viewfinder appears. If you're shooting flash and (for example) are seeing the dark ambient exposure, your AF will suffer. If you throw on ease of viewing, it'll AF better.
Also, it's almost entirely dependent on how fast your lens is. The 50 1.2 will focus far more reliably than slower lenses. (Less noise in a brighter image = better AF)
I shoot in extreme low light (think proms lit by maybe one dj light) so you're not gonna get lower than that ususally.
As noted, I am aware of how the AF works and have applied every setting possible to help with this. "Ease of viewing" and Starlight mode, which I have set to it's own button, do help, but the 1/3 rate I'm getting are WITH those on. With them off, it is indeed worse.
p.3 #6 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
Doing some digging, I have managed to find a somewhat extensive amount of discussion about this phenomenon with the Z9, including people doing controlled tests, etc., testing with new firmware releases, etc. From what I can tell, the general consensus that was arrived at after a lot of threads about it was to turn off subject detection in lighting below -2 or -3 ev.
p.3 #7 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
sungphoto wrote:
I think most of the time these issues on the Z8 and Z9 are due to camera setup or user technique. The Z6 and Z7 for sure have issues, but to be honest what you're describing doesn't make sense to me
Does it have to make sense to you for it to be a real issue for him though? I shoot over 100K images a year on jobs with the Z8 and Z9 and without any scientific hoop jumping I feel like my hit ratio on subjects eyes using subject detection in all manners has maybe a 30-40% keeper rate no matter what lens I use, 50 1.2, 135 1.8 or 70-200 2.8 in any light really. To be clear, this is since the last major FW update.
My plan is to backup my user settings on my laptop and then do a deep reset to one of them to see if that improves things.
We should not always be dismissive of people’s experience and chalk it up to settings or user error, these are complex tools and things can get buggy for reasons that are not easy to pin down.
p.3 #8 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
Have you tried turning off starlight but doing ease of viewing? Starlight isn't great for moving subjects as it purposefully lowers the (viewfinder) shutter speed below that of the exposure to get a brighter image. So it's great for.. stars.. not so great for moving things.
p.3 #9 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
nataphoto wrote:
Have you tried turning off starlight but doing ease of viewing? Starlight isn't great for moving subjects as it purposefully lowers the (viewfinder) shutter speed below that of the exposure to get a brighter image. So it's great for.. stars.. not so great for moving things.
I believe I tested every combination but will try it again to be sure I have specifically had it the way you suggest.
However, I am doubly confident I have tried this because most of the issues I am talking about are when trying to use flash (since that's when it's dark enough to have the problem) and I have always had it set to adjust for ease of viewing when using flash.
p.3 #10 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
Ai_Print wrote:
Does it have to make sense to you for it to be a real issue for him though? I shoot over 100K images a year on jobs with the Z8 and Z9 and without any scientific hoop jumping I feel like my hit ratio on subjects eyes using subject detection in all manners has maybe a 30-40% keeper rate no matter what lens I use, 50 1.2, 135 1.8 or 70-200 2.8 in any light really. To be clear, this is since the last major FW update.
My plan is to backup my user settings on my laptop and then do a deep reset to one of them to see if that improves things.
We should not always be dismissive of people’s experience and chalk it up to settings or user error, these are complex tools and things can get buggy for reasons that are not easy to pin down. ...Show more →
Just so we're clear, your keeper rate with subject detection is 30-40%?
p.3 #11 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
SCoombs wrote:
I actually tried a reset yesterday! I noticed a slight improvement actually, but nothing major.
Do you use AF-C? And do you use back button focus? See my recent post on back button focus.
I am at a loss as to why our experiences are so different. I use both AF-C and AF-S. I don't use back button focus much though and just half press shutter and personally just feel that I am right there to capture the moment with half press shutter.
I felt like I am just a tad behind sometimes with back button focus (personal preference more likely).
p.3 #13 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
I'm leaving an event now and I'll post an update likely tomorrow but impressions are that it was really, really bad. It wasn't even just subject detection - it was everything. Even dynamic area or single point AF, which when messing around at home seemed to work with some consistency, were just almost useless. I'm honestly not sure how much I got that is worthy of having a dedicated photographer and what I did get came from taking every shot 3 times and hoping one worked.
Over the course of the night I tried about every setting or mode suggestion found here or I. Any of the other threads on this I read through today. Often even single point just hunted back and forth.
p.3 #14 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
I just went through the same thing with video auto focus with the Z8, some people saying that they are having the same issues, while others say that the camera is perfect, and I am to blame.
p.3 #16 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
RoamingScott wrote:
Just so we're clear, your keeper rate with subject detection is 30-40%?
In using AF-C in eye detection in medium to medium-low light on people who are talking, heads moving, yes that is the keeper rate in terms of eyes in focus.
p.3 #17 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
Let me see if I understand this correctly: the camera has informed you which AF mode you need in low light to achieve consistent 75-100% accuracy, but you’re complaining that another mode is inappropriate for these same circumstances? I’d personally file that under “learning my gear.”
p.3 #18 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
I can’t negate the fact that if this were true for all Z8’s the internet forums would be on fire with photographers wanting to burn the Z8 at the stake. That’s not happening. That indicates more likely causes such as settings, user habits/misunderstanding of the AF or your specific camera is malfunctioning.
You are doing a reset. I would leave the camera at basic settings except for your auto focus settings. Try that and see if there’s a difference.
If you’re using back button focus, go to Custom Settings -> A2 and see if you have “Release” or “Focus” set. With BBF you need to have it set to “Release” otherwise you’ll try to focus a second time as you push the shutter button and the camera won’t have enough time to establish focus a second time.
Finally, if the other two methods don’t provide relief, consider sending your camera into Nikon to have them check it out.
Hope you get it sorted out. The Z8 is a very capable camera and personally, I’ve not encountered a low light focus issues you’re encountering. I occasionally miss shots, but my keeper rate is much higher.
p.3 #19 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
SCoombs wrote:
I believe I tested every combination but will try it again to be sure I have specifically had it the way you suggest.
However, I am doubly confident I have tried this because most of the issues I am talking about are when trying to use flash (since that's when it's dark enough to have the problem) and I have always had it set to adjust for ease of viewing when using flash.
So, it's only with flash? Is the camera focusing accurately without flash and do you have focus assist on/off?
p.3 #20 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
I have just come across this thread and am amazed by what I read.
My Z8 and Z9 have been super reliable with subject detection (mostly people) in various levels of light. I shot a session in my studio 2 days ago, I would call it fairly dark. I have 90+% of keepers using 50mm f1.2 S, 85mm f1.2 S and 135mm f1.8 S at f2.8 (results a bit better with the more recent 85mm f1.2 and 135mm f1.8). Selecting the images for the client is a major pain because they are all technically perfect. All with flash, profoto Pro-10 x 2 and 3x Pro-Head+ through XL umbrella, Bron Para 88 and Profoto soft box 4x1, using Profoto trigger. But I get similar results with natural light or more portable Profoto flashes.
I only use AF-C, typically C1/C2 mode with orientation, subject detection on, I use 2 boxes about 2/3 of the width and 1/3 of the height, erratic setting, lowest possible reaction time, often 20 fps raw lossless. My subjects do move... no difference still super sharp on the pupil of the eye. I always get more actual resolution with my Z8/Z9 than with my 150mp Phaseone back on XF because of how accurate the AF is with the Nikons. I have basically stopped using the phaseone for people as a result. Similar experiences with my GFX-100II although the latest firmware and the 45-100mm f4 delivers pretty convincing results and a high keeper rate as long as subject movement is slow.
I do also shoot ballet rehearsals in very low venue light (still and video) and got great results too. I can share these. This one is ISO4000 at f1.2 and 1/800s.
Compared to my a9III I typically get more consistent focusing with the Nikons when shooting wide open.
I have no clue why the OP is having so different results, but I would personality have the camera checked. Something isn't right at all. Perhaps a full reset first may help as well.
