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Archive 2024 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM

  
 
johnvanr
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p.2 #1 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM


ruthenium wrote:
I have used Sony A1 for the last three years, and added OM-1 II & 12-40 F2.8 II very recently, in early March.
My most used leases with the A1 are Tamron 35-150mm F2.0-2.8 (MFT equivalent: 17-75 mm F1.0-1.4) and, more recently, Tamron 50-400 F4.5-6.3 (MFT equivalent: 25-200 F2.2-3.2), as well as Sony 35mm F1.4 GM. I also own, but use rarely, other Sony lenses: 24-105 G, 200-600 G, 70-200 GM II. Ultimately, I am very happy with my A1 and the lens kit.
The two Tamron lenses are similar in length&weight at 158 - 183mm and 1,165g -1,155g. These are considered
...Show more

I have no issues with your findings, but just want to say that the Olympus 40-150/2.8 is a stellar lens. One of the best in the line up. That said, it’s also pretty large because of its long range. So while I love that lens, I often take the much smaller Panasonic 35-100/2.8 with me instead.



Apr 03, 2024 at 11:47 AM
The Rat
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p.2 #2 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM


MEDISN wrote:
It is hard to beat the DR of the 60MP Sony sensor. However, I will put a plug here for High-Res feature on Olympus bodies.

https://www.mitropoulos.photography/High-Res

The kinds of things I wanted high DR for are perfectly suited for High-Res feature. Once I figured this out, I stopped carrying my A7R2 and eventually sold off the remainder of my Sony gear.

I still have 3 cameras with that 60MP Sony sensor, but none of them are Sony brand


Seconding this recommendation. I've been using the older EM1 Mk2's hi-res mode almost exclusively for many years now. The only time I don't is when I can't, mainly very dark nights with no moonlight. I use DxO Photolab for processing and I really enjoy the results.



Apr 03, 2024 at 12:52 PM
offtraildog
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p.2 #3 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM


The Rat wrote:
Seconding this recommendation. I've been using the older EM1 Mk2's hi-res mode almost exclusively for many years now. The only time I don't is when I can't, mainly very dark nights with no moonlight. I use DxO Photolab for processing and I really enjoy the results.


HI

so you don't need to process the HHHR raw in OMW first if using DXO?



Apr 03, 2024 at 01:05 PM
The Rat
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p.2 #4 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM


offtraildog wrote:
HI

so you don't need to process the HHHR raw in OMW first if using DXO?


I haven't used the handheld hi-res mode, since the old EM1 Mk2 doesn't have it. I've been using the tripod-based hi-res to get 80mp shots. But yeah, as far as I know, using the Olympus software isn't required to process any of the hi-res mode shots. I've processed them directly in Lightroom and DxO before.



Apr 03, 2024 at 01:36 PM
formula4speed
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p.2 #5 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM


offtraildog wrote:
I live in NW MT and do a lot of day hikes with significant vertical and mileage. I hike with people 10-20 yrs younger so I like to reduce my carry-weight so I can keep up

I switched out my Gitzo 3lbs tripod to a Leofoto MT-03 & MBC-20 & case = 9.7oz but I seldom use it.

the 12-40/2.8 vs 12-45/4 is a 6oz difference (the 12-45/4 is smaller and lighter then T 20-40) and I don't need 2.8 on the trail and the 12-45 is IP53 so that might a good way to reduce some weight and also leave
...Show more

Yea, finding the right IQ to weight ratio is super personal. I live at sea level and don't recall ever being above 10,000 ft (not counting being on an airplane). Clearly the only solution is to own a compact like the Ricoh GR series, a m4/3 kit and a FF kit and decide what to carry for each trip*

*Spending other people's money is fun.



Apr 03, 2024 at 02:22 PM
palmor
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p.2 #6 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM


offtraildog wrote:
I live in NW MT and do a lot of day hikes with significant vertical and mileage. I hike with people 10-20 yrs younger so I like to reduce my carry-weight so I can keep up

I switched out my Gitzo 3lbs tripod to a Leofoto MT-03 & MBC-20 & case = 9.7oz but I seldom use it.

the 12-40/2.8 vs 12-45/4 is a 6oz difference (the 12-45/4 is smaller and lighter then T 20-40) and I don't need 2.8 on the trail and the 12-45 is IP53 so that might a good way to reduce some weight and also leave
...Show more

I have both the 12-40 and 12-45 (got each as a kit lens the OM-1 and OM-5) and the 12-45 is great optically. What I don't like about it is that it does not have the same Flourine coating as the 12-40, making it a pain to clean off.. especially around waterfalls or in rain. The 12-45 streaks like crazy.



Apr 03, 2024 at 04:33 PM
palmor
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p.2 #7 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM


offtraildog wrote:
HI

so you don't need to process the HHHR raw in OMW first if using DXO?


Correct, the high rez modes produce a RAW file with the combined image (unlike other cameras where you have to combine it post in their software).



Apr 03, 2024 at 04:34 PM
offtraildog
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p.2 #8 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM


palmor wrote:
I have both the 12-40 and 12-45 (got each as a kit lens the OM-1 and OM-5) and the 12-45 is great optically. What I don't like about it is that it does not have the same Flourine coating as the 12-40, making it a pain to clean off.. especially around waterfalls or in rain. The 12-45 streaks like crazy.


Bummer about the flourine ... i wondered about that. I had the 12-40 in OR for 2 weeks last month and never had to clean it from raindrops, sea spray, etc. just a simple wipe cleared the water.

Perhaps the Olympus "protection" filters are flourine? i could not find anything on their website



Apr 03, 2024 at 04:51 PM
offtraildog
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p.2 #9 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM


palmor wrote:
Correct, the high rez modes produce a RAW file with the combined image (unlike other cameras where you have to combine it post in their software).


I know there is no stacking or merging. When I import a HHHR raw into Capture One, the file takes ALOT of sharpening. I have noticed if I import the HHHR raw into OMW first, the import process recognizes it as a HHHR and auto-sharpens it. Then I can export a TIFF into C1 but i would prefer to skip the OMW step so that's why I was curious about DXO



Apr 03, 2024 at 04:53 PM
palmor
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p.2 #10 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM


offtraildog wrote:
Bummer about the flourine ... i wondered about that. I had the 12-40 in OR for 2 weeks last month and never had to clean it from raindrops, sea spray, etc. just a simple wipe cleared the water.

Perhaps the Olympus "protection" filters are flourine? i could not find anything on their website


Never looked into them but maybe there is a 3rd party that does. The non Flourine on the "pro" lenses bugs me.. same thing with the Panasonic 8-18.. I love that lens but it's the same problem. I've been thinking about trading it out for the OM 8-25 just because of that.



Apr 03, 2024 at 04:57 PM
palmor
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p.2 #11 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM


offtraildog wrote:
I know there is no stacking or merging. When I import a HHHR raw into Capture One, the file takes ALOT of sharpening. I have noticed if I import the HHHR raw into OMW first, the import process recognizes it as a HHHR and auto-sharpens it. Then I can export a TIFF into C1 but i would prefer to skip the OMW step so that's why I was curious about DXO


Interesting, I basically ignore OMW and never thought to look at my high rez shots there. I'll have to give it a try.



Apr 03, 2024 at 04:58 PM
offtraildog
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p.2 #12 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM


palmor wrote:
Never looked into them but maybe there is a 3rd party that does. The non Flourine on the "pro" lenses bugs me.. same thing with the Panasonic 8-18.. I love that lens but it's the same problem. I've been thinking about trading it out for the OM 8-25 just because of that.


I recently bought the 8-25 because I thought the focal length would suit my needs well. It was noticable heavier and larger then the 12-40/2.8 and since my testing indicated very soft corners wide open that improved slightly thru the midrange, I sent it back yesterday.

hope you have a better experience



Apr 03, 2024 at 05:17 PM
offtraildog
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p.2 #13 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM


palmor wrote:
Interesting, I basically ignore OMW and never thought to look at my high rez shots there. I'll have to give it a try.


On my 2017 iMac , it runs fairly slow and I have been really happy with C1. I did a trial of DXO awhile ago and there was some issue with the viewer not being full res at certain magnifictions that bugged me. I may have to try it again since it seems very popular



Apr 03, 2024 at 05:19 PM
ruthenium
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p.2 #14 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM


johnvanr wrote:
I have no issues with your findings, but just want to say that the Olympus 40-150/2.8 is a stellar lens. One of the best in the line up. That said, it’s also pretty large because of its long range. So while I love that lens, I often take the much smaller Panasonic 35-100/2.8 with me instead.


Thank you for sharing your experience - this is encouraging and I should test this lens (maybe I can do this in our local Henry's camera store).



Apr 03, 2024 at 09:24 PM
ruthenium
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p.2 #15 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM


Frogfish wrote:
I first bought the OM1 and a few Oly lenses because I wanted the computational features (esp. ND filters, Composite RAWs, Starry Night), a lower weight kit for hiking and for the insanely good IBIS (which massively lowers shutters speeds and ISO and therefore retains DR, to the extent that there are fewer scenes whereby the A7r5 has an obvious DR advantage (usually with movement which requires higher shutter speeds). The Pro-Capture is also an important feature for me but not for you.

I'll add that super fast lenses (0.95 / f1.2, f1.4) are all far more affordable, far smaller, far
...Show more

In response to "F2.0-2.8 (MFT equivalent: F1.0-1.4) " isn't strictly accurate. As far as light transmission is concerned then f2.0-2.8 in FF is F2.0-2.8 in MFT. It is only the apparent DoF that has doubled."
It is not clear what you mean by the "light transmission".
The F number (aperture) determines the amount light that hits a unit surface of the sensor; the F number directly correlates with the ISO.
Thus, we expect the same ISO when the F number is the same in FF and MFT cameras.
A FF sensor is four times larger than an MFT sensor. Thus, it collects four times more light at any given F number or the related ISO number.
This means, theoretically(!), that an MFT and a FF camera should have equivalent exposure when the F number is doubled on the FF camera.

For example, the exposure is expected to be the same for
MFT at 25 mm F2.8 and FF at 50 mm F5.6; in this example, the ISO of the FF camera should be 4 times greater than the ISO on the MFT camera. The SS will be the same on both cameras.

In real life, the difference may not be exactly 2 stops (two-fold).

I compared two cameras in my hands: OM-1 II and Sony A7 III, using four lenses: 12-40 F2.8 II and 17 F1.2 on OM-1 II and Tamron 35-150 and Sony 35 F1.4 GM on A7III.
These are the observed F-number/SS/ISO settings decided by the two cameras when using the same subject:
OM-1 II & 12-40 at 25 mm
F SS ISO "light advantage"

2.8 1/40 200
2.8 1/80 400
2.8 1/125 640

A7 III & Tamron 35-150 at 50 mm
2.8 1/50 200 1/3 stops
2.8 1/125 400 2/3 stops
2.8 1/40 125 2/3 stops
2.8 1/80 250 2/3 stops

OM-1 II & 17 mm F1.2
2.8 1/30 200
2.8 1/60 400

A7 III & 35mm F1.4 GM
2.8 1/30 125 2/3 stops
2.8 1/60 250 2/3 stops
2.8 1/50 200 2/3 stops
2.8 1/100 400 2/3 stops
5.6 1/60 1000 1 and 1/3 stops
5.6 1/30 500 1 and 1/3 stops

Sorry, this table is a bit messy and might be confusing. Nevertheless, the bottom line is that the FF A7 III does not have a "two-stop advantage" over the OM-1 II. The actual difference, in practice, seems to be more like 2/3 to 1 stop.

Thus, for example, OM-1 II with a F2.8 lens has the light gathering ability of a Sony A7 III with a lens closed to about F4 (not the theoretical 5.6).



Apr 03, 2024 at 09:54 PM
Frogfish
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p.2 #16 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM


offtraildog wrote:
When hiking or travel, I prefer to not change lenses often. one A7CR lens that would work well for my hiking and travel needs would be the 16-35PZ, essentially a 16-70/4. @868g it is about the same weight as the OM-1 w/ 12-45 (853g). I lose a little on the long end but i rarely shoot long when hiking and I gain UWA.



Just a minor correction. Yes the 16-35/4 PZ is a superb lens (I have it and love it) but's it's like a 16-53mm (APSC and 26mp) rather than 70mm so you're losing quite a bit more vs the 12-45 (effective 24-90) on the long end but gaining on the wide end as you said. Pick your poison



Apr 03, 2024 at 11:39 PM
Tom Reynolds
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p.2 #17 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM


According to OM System engineers the OM-1 mk 1 was about a stop worse than a Canon R-5. However, the curves suggest that it varied from 1 to 1.5 with the average maybe 1.24 stops.

Given the OM Systems superior IS, for stationary shots, the OM-1 could probably slow down the shutter speed enough to equalize.

Tom



Apr 04, 2024 at 12:00 AM
Frogfish
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p.2 #18 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM


ruthenium wrote:
In response to "F2.0-2.8 (MFT equivalent: F1.0-1.4) " isn't strictly accurate. As far as light transmission is concerned then f2.0-2.8 in FF is F2.0-2.8 in MFT. It is only the apparent DoF that has doubled."

It is not clear what you mean by the "light transmission".

The F number (aperture) determines the amount light that hits a unit surface of the sensor; the F number directly correlates with the ISO.
Thus, we expect the same ISO when the F number is the same in FF and MFT cameras.
A FF sensor is four times larger than an MFT sensor. Thus, it collects four
...Show more

Firstly note I didn't reference ISO in the statement you quoted, or indeed in the whole of my post.

To clarify some basics, because it can be really confusing for some, and why f1.2 is f1.2 on all formats (light transmission - regardless of sensor size's effect on ISO and the other influences aside from aperture, e.g. degradation of signal from sensor to chip and in camera processing).

You obviously know this but, for other readers that may not :

To simplify (I hope!) on the light gathering ability of any lens comparing FF to M43: if you have a small swimming pool (5m x 5m) filled to 1.2m deep and a much larger (10m x 10m, the sides have doubled) swimming pool also filled to 1.2m, both are still 1.2m deep even though the larger pool has a much larger surface area and in this example has x4 more water in total (5x5m = 25m2 for M43 and 10x10m = 100m2 for FF). I hope this simile works and doesn't confuse anyone !

The F-stop is calculated by the max. aperture diaphragm size to FL as a ratio (e.g. a 50mm lens having a measured aperture size (diagonal) of 25mm means it's an f2 lens: 50mm / 25mm = 2). Although the light transmission (T-stop) can vary from this, for effective purposes nearly everyone uses the F-stop over the T-stop in general conversation.

Note also that smaller sensors are more light efficient than larger sensors (that have more light loss) and that not all sensor technologies are the same and vary between generations (more recent sensors being more efficient). As an exemplar I'll use this quote from Admiring Light :

The OM-D E-M5 is only about a half a stop behind the Canon 5D and just over one stop behind the 5D Mark II…



So using this and taking the base ISOs of say the Sony FF cameras (100 ISO) and OM1 (200 ISO) we are getting roughly the same exposure with a f1.2 lens and don't need to increase the OM1 to 400 ISO to gain equivalence (inverted commas).

A few more comments whilst we are at it (but maybe still relevant to the discussion)!

a) If you are shooting at an equivalent DoF and the same shutter speed, larger sensors will require higher ISOs, meaning the advantages in DR and Noise have to a greater extent, or completely, dissipated. If we add in the far superior IBIS (stabilising, by area, a x4 smaller sensor) then we can shoot at far lower shutter speeds (where desired or applicable), requiring lower ISOs compared to FF cameras.

b) Unless you are buying very expensive (e.g Otus / GM level lenses) then wide open at f/1.2 / 1.4 / f/1.8, most M43 lenses are sharp whilst many full frame lenses need stopping down to reach that level, meaning higher ISOs - assuming the same shutter speed. This despite the improvement in modern lenses.

c) DR - is not so much of an issue today. Even with a difference to FF sensors the improvement in sensor DR across all sensor sizes means you are unlikely to notice the difference in general practice and in extreme contrast situations all sensors will need bracketing. For example (quoting Admiring Light) the Olympus OM-D E-M5 has better dynamic range than ANY Canon DSLR ever made

d) Noise is obviously, but not solely, related to ISO. However although there is a clear difference to FF it's usually not even noticeable or if it is, then easily removed (even at high ISOs) using today's excellent NR software.

e) the HHHR mode of Olympus cameras also greatly reduces Noise.





Apr 04, 2024 at 02:21 AM
gmccroskery
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p.2 #19 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM


palmor wrote:
I shoot both Sony and M43 and use both extensively depending on use case. For travel/hiking I almost always take the M43 kit now and I don't worry about the difference in DR all that much. I find for those use cases I can bracket and/or utilize the superior IS of the OM kit to make up for a lot of the differences.

For me it really shines for hiking, I used to lug my FF kit with tripod every time I went hiking and now I leave it all behind. The OM-1 with a couple of lenses is all
...Show more

Thanks for the link to your previous posts, I had not seen them before. Wow -- nice work!
Your images in both posts exemplify some of the reasons why I personally shoot only m4/3's, after a career that included both 35mm and Medium Format. I personally find that when I rarely do get results I'm not happy with -- it's my fault and not the system's fault.



Apr 04, 2024 at 07:43 AM
SpecFoto
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p.2 #20 · Sony FF owners who also own a Oly/OM


I have been shooting with Olympus M4/3 since 2012 and have a full kit of mostly primes with a few zoom lenses (except for the 300 f4 and 150-400 f4.5). Added a FF Sony in 2018 and now have a full range of primes and 3 zooms. Really, way more lenses than I need for either system, but hey so what….it’s what I enjoy!

Olympus has always had better built cameras with great weather sealing, the best in class IBIS, so many unique computational features and overall a solid design (EM1’s and now OM-1’s). Sony’s weather sealing was pretty bad in comparison and until recently with the A7RV the Sony IBIS was not as good, a least 3 stops worse. I like to shoot at base ISO (or even ISO 100) with M4/3 to keep the largest DR for as long as possible. So I mostly use fast f1.2 or f1.4 primes or the 12-40 and 40-150 f2.8 Pro zooms.

Since 2012 I have used my Olympus gear for overseas travel but last summer I took a 2 month trip overseas with the A7RIV, a couple of GM’s and 2 Batis lenses. Coming off that trip I was very happy with the Sony gear, except I knew I needed a smaller and lighter weight kit for travel. I purchased a Sony A6700 and so far I am extremely happy with the smaller compact body. Got the APS-C Sony 15mm f1.4, Sigma 18-50 f2.8 and 56 f1.4 lenses to make a diminutive kit with 2 fast primes. Much smaller kit with higher DR and faster lenses that I can put together with OMD. The new Subject Detection is a real game changer, the Eye detect AF has always been better with Sony, but now it is at the next level, and is substantially better than my OM-1, let alone the OM-5, which does not have Subject Detection.

All of the above is leading up to this; Looking forward, I now feel that Sony is the best option for a smaller compact kit, either APS-C or FF. Liking the A6700 as much as I do, I ordered this week a A7CR and plan to use it with my G/GM/Batis lenses, and for a lighter weight prime option, the Sigma I series of f2 and f2.8 primes. The C-AF and Subject Detection is much better than my OM-1, the IBIS is now up to 7 stops and there are a whole range of excellent smaller and fast primes/zooms by Sony, Sigma and others.

OMD on the other hand still has only 1 weather sealed f1.4 prime and all their f1.8 (7 year old+) primes are not WS. Their WS telephoto zooms are quite a bit bigger than what Panasonic has, and the mid range Pro f2.8 zooms don’t have OIS. Even the super small Panasonic 12-35 and 35-100 f2.8 WS zooms have OIS, but of course they and Olympus/OMD have never gotten together to allow their IBIS/OIS to work interchangeably so buying OIS on a Pany lens, with a OMD body, is a waste of money. And the OM5 is frankly 7 year old tech, it’s sensor is from 2017 (same as Pen F sensor), it doesn't have the updated processor and they did not even upgrade the menus…..really sad to see the company/brand stagnate like this.


Edited on Apr 04, 2024 at 09:41 AM · View previous versions



Apr 04, 2024 at 07:56 AM
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