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Archive 2024Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
p.5 #1Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
This is awesome. Would love to see someone add the Canon R3 and Sony a9II...
Mar 16, 2024 at 10:12 AM
p.5 #2Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
rscheffler wrote:
This is awesome. Would love to see someone add the Canon R3 and Sony a9II...
FM'ers have been incredibly generous with their time with their submissions.
I received a PM yesterday for the A9 II so hopefully that'll be done in the next week or so.
This is awesome. Would love to see someone add the Canon R3 and Sony a9II...
FM'ers have been incredibly generous with their time with their submissions.
I received a PM yesterday for the A9 II so hopefully that'll be done in the next week or so.
Mar 16, 2024 at 10:30 AM
p.5 #3Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
Had some downtime in between submissions so added logic to the results site to allow models to be highlighted by specifying a matching regex expression for the model in the URL, as well as support for specifying a column to sort and the order. Also added support for specifying the display format to milliseconds vs the default of secs (1/x) For example, here's a link that will highlight all Canon bodies and sort the results by ascending photo readout time and display as milliseconds:
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter?Model=Canon%2E%2A%26sort=Photo%26displayFormat=ms
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter?Model=Canon%2E%2A%26sort=Photo%26displayFormat=ms
Mar 17, 2024 at 01:40 PM
p.5 #4Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
Fuji X-H2S added, thanks yet again to @AZ Photo!
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model=Fuji%20X-H2S
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model=Fuji%20X-H2S
Mar 18, 2024 at 09:23 AM
p.5 #5Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
Fuji GFX 100S, courtesy of me 
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter?Model=Fuji%20GFX%20100S
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter?Model=Fuji%20GFX%20100S
Mar 18, 2024 at 01:50 PM
p.5 #6Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
This database is really excellent. Great work and congratulations to everyone building it. I would love to help but you've got my cameras on the board already!
Mar 18, 2024 at 03:38 PM
p.5 #7Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
Just added the Z8:
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model=Nikon%20Z8
Made a surprising discovery on its 60fps/120fps continuous shooting modes - the sensor readout rate drops significantly. Started a thread on Dpreview about it.
Here's a spoiler:
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-W4p5ddk/0/GRLGjw5GvGHX8RnnwhnJB66kTp9GsrtTmC2M2Xbg/O/i-W4p5ddk.png
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model=Nikon%20Z8
Made a surprising discovery on its 60fps/120fps continuous shooting modes - the sensor readout rate drops significantly. Started a thread on Dpreview about it.
Here's a spoiler:
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-W4p5ddk/0/GRLGjw5GvGHX8RnnwhnJB66kTp9GsrtTmC2M2Xbg/O/i-W4p5ddk.png
Mar 19, 2024 at 10:16 AM
p.5 #8Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
snapsy wrote:
Just added the Z8:
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model=Nikon%20Z8
Made a surprising discovery on its 60fps/120fps continuous shooting modes - the sensor readout rate drops significantly. Started a thread on Dpreview about it.
That's interesting. As a Canon R6II user, which can shoot at 40fps in e-shutter, there has been anecdotal discussion that its sensor readout rate also drops at this frame rate as a result.
Just added the Z8:
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model=Nikon%20Z8
Made a surprising discovery on its 60fps/120fps continuous shooting modes - the sensor readout rate drops significantly. Started a thread on Dpreview about it.
That's interesting. As a Canon R6II user, which can shoot at 40fps in e-shutter, there has been anecdotal discussion that its sensor readout rate also drops at this frame rate as a result.
Mar 19, 2024 at 01:39 PM
p.5 #9Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
rscheffler wrote:
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model=Nikon%20Z8
Made a surprising discovery on its 60fps/120fps continuous shooting modes - the sensor readout rate drops significantly. Started a thread on Dpreview about it.That's interesting. As a Canon R6II user, which can shoot at 40fps in e-shutter, there has been anecdotal discussion that its sensor readout rate also drops at this frame rate as a result.
I haven't had a volunteer for the R6 II but I'm guessing it drops to a 12-but readout, which should actually be faster than the normal 14-bit. The Z8/Z9 dropping for these C60/C120 modes is rather unusual and likely the result of using the video pipeline to achieve.
snapsy wrote
Just added the Z8:https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model=Nikon%20Z8
Made a surprising discovery on its 60fps/120fps continuous shooting modes - the sensor readout rate drops significantly. Started a thread on Dpreview about it.
I haven't had a volunteer for the R6 II but I'm guessing it drops to a 12-but readout, which should actually be faster than the normal 14-bit. The Z8/Z9 dropping for these C60/C120 modes is rather unusual and likely the result of using the video pipeline to achieve.
Mar 19, 2024 at 01:43 PM
p.5 #10Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
I'd offer up my A9III but it would kind of pointless, wouldn't it? 
Mar 19, 2024 at 02:25 PM
p.5 #11Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
My understanding is the Canon R5/6/6II and probably also the R7 and R8 drop to 12 bits in e-shutter. According to Photons to Photos there is a noticeable DR penalty when using e-shutter with the R5/6/6II.
The Z8's use of the video pipeline would make sense in part due to these modes only allowing Jpeg capture.
The Z8's use of the video pipeline would make sense in part due to these modes only allowing Jpeg capture.
Mar 19, 2024 at 02:28 PM
p.5 #12Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
jhapeman wrote:
I'd offer up my A9III but it would kind of pointless, wouldn't it?
It would provide a good reference point for the test method
Mar 19, 2024 at 02:35 PM
p.5 #13Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
snapsy wrote:
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model=Nikon%20Z8
Made a surprising discovery on its 60fps/120fps continuous shooting modes - the sensor readout rate drops significantly. Started a thread on Dpreview about it.That's interesting. As a Canon R6II user, which can shoot at 40fps in e-shutter, there has been anecdotal discussion that its sensor readout rate also drops at this frame rate as a result.I haven't had a volunteer for the R6 II but I'm guessing it drops to a 12-but readout, which should actually be faster than the normal 14-bit. The Z8/Z9 dropping for these C60/C120 modes is rather unusual and likely the result of using the video pipeline to achieve.
@rscheffler, I actually did test the R6 II
- I've tested so many I'm starting to forget which ones I didn't see any change in readout speed for the Continuous H+ mode (40fps). I know it's documented to drop to 12-bits for this mode. I checked the shadow noise difference vs single-shot but since the ISO for my test images is 12,800 the difference in shadow noise between 12-bit and 14-bit is not discernible.
rscheffler wrote
snapsy wrote
Just added the Z8:https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model=Nikon%20Z8
Made a surprising discovery on its 60fps/120fps continuous shooting modes - the sensor readout rate drops significantly. Started a thread on Dpreview about it.
@rscheffler, I actually did test the R6 II
- I've tested so many I'm starting to forget which ones I didn't see any change in readout speed for the Continuous H+ mode (40fps). I know it's documented to drop to 12-bits for this mode. I checked the shadow noise difference vs single-shot but since the ISO for my test images is 12,800 the difference in shadow noise between 12-bit and 14-bit is not discernible.Mar 19, 2024 at 03:24 PM
p.5 #14Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
Fuji GFX 100 II, courtesy of @JimKasson!
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model=Fuji%20GFX%20100%20II
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model=Fuji%20GFX%20100%20II
Mar 22, 2024 at 01:04 AM
p.5 #15Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
jhapeman wrote:
I'd offer up my A9III but it would kind of pointless, wouldn't it?
Maybe you can supply Bill Claff with the files he needs to update his web site with data for the A9III.
https://www.photonstophotos.net//Collaborations/Collaboration_Overview.htm
Edit: Too late. Photonstophotos was updated shortly after this post.
Edited on Mar 22, 2024 at 12:28 PM · View previous versions
I'd offer up my A9III but it would kind of pointless, wouldn't it?
Maybe you can supply Bill Claff with the files he needs to update his web site with data for the A9III.
https://www.photonstophotos.net//Collaborations/Collaboration_Overview.htm
Edit: Too late. Photonstophotos was updated shortly after this post.
Edited on Mar 22, 2024 at 12:28 PM · View previous versions
Mar 22, 2024 at 08:40 AM
p.5 #16Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
Hasselblad X2D, courtesy again of @JimKasson!
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model=Hasselblad%20X2D
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model=Hasselblad%20X2D
Mar 22, 2024 at 12:25 PM
p.5 #17Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
snapsy wrote:
To demonstrate this effect of shutter speed more clearly I've set up my Arduino with two LEDs, a red and a green, and alternate between the two every millisecond (1/1000).
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-TRxJGCh/0/CgfHKTD2S8XzVJmjTbBsWpm8MkFR2nLX5vv3xc6mm/O/i-TRxJGCh.jpg
To expand this even further, I've created a timing chart showing the intersection of light cycles with sensor row readouts at different shutter speeds, to depict why faster shutter speeds produce distinct bands with equal-sized light/dark areas and slower shutter speeds produce softer bands with smaller dark areas.
1/2000:
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-wSS53gj/0/hzh6gbwQ8WXJTm7NPm7rBL6n89rR57tkjTz4Dr4G/O/i-wSS53gj.png
1/1000:
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-2Q8rNXQ/0/CHHtDpcxnJNs4qBdkmZL4xCJr88v5ZQqcmPJPsj5b/O/i-2Q8rNXQ.png
snapsy wrote
There are two factors at play here. First, by using a slower shutter speed relative to the light cycling frequency, each sensor row is capturing multiple cycles of light. This means the brightness difference of the bands between rows receiving +1 or -1 cycles vs other rows is less noticeable. For example, on a light source cycling 1,000 times/sec, a 1/8000 shutter will capture on average 1 cycle of light, meaning some rows will have 100% and others 0% - a very noticeable 100% difference. Drop the shutter down to 1/250 and some rows get 4 cycles while others get 3 - much less noticeable 33% difference. This is why bands become less noticeable at slower shutter speeds. They start to blend together and fill in the black gaps since the brightness difference of missing a light cycle becomes less and less.https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-TRxJGCh/0/CgfHKTD2S8XzVJmjTbBsWpm8MkFR2nLX5vv3xc6mm/O/i-TRxJGCh.jpg
To expand this even further, I've created a timing chart showing the intersection of light cycles with sensor row readouts at different shutter speeds, to depict why faster shutter speeds produce distinct bands with equal-sized light/dark areas and slower shutter speeds produce softer bands with smaller dark areas.
1/2000:
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-wSS53gj/0/hzh6gbwQ8WXJTm7NPm7rBL6n89rR57tkjTz4Dr4G/O/i-wSS53gj.png
1/1000:
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-2Q8rNXQ/0/CHHtDpcxnJNs4qBdkmZL4xCJr88v5ZQqcmPJPsj5b/O/i-2Q8rNXQ.png
Mar 25, 2024 at 07:38 AM
p.5 #18Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
Mad Excel skills, props 
.
.Mar 25, 2024 at 10:30 AM
p.5 #19Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
Added Nikon Z6 II and Z7 II
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model=Nikon%20Z.%20II
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model=Nikon%20Z.%20II
Mar 27, 2024 at 01:41 PM
p.5 #20Call for help - building sensor readout speed database
Added Sony A7S III
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model=Sony%20A7S%20III
I did extensive video measurements on this camera (including ProRes RAW), since it's such a popular model for video and has the fastest, full-quality 4K sensor read time of all hybrids currently on the market. You can see the detailed tests by clicking on the model name in the live table, which will get you to here:
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/#Sony%20A7S%20III
It's interesting to do the math of how the Sony A7S III's stills readout of 1/48 (20.91ms) increases to 1/113 (8.83ms) for full-quality 4K (no binning/line-skipping):
* Video uses a 12-bit readout vs 14-bit for stills. Based on my A7 III 14 vs 12 bit measurements, this reduces readout time by 56.7%
* 4K is 16:9, so that aspect ratio crop to achieve that from the 3:2 sensor reduces the # rows from 2832 (stills) to 2160 (4K UHD)
20.91ms (stills readout) * 0.567 (12-bit readout) * [2160/2832 rows] (16:9 crop) = 9.04ms, close to my 8.83ms 4K measurement.
What's interesting is my 4.2k ProRes RAW measurements match the 4K UHD, even though 4.2k raw has 2408 rows vs 2160 for 4K UHD.
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model=Sony%20A7S%20III
I did extensive video measurements on this camera (including ProRes RAW), since it's such a popular model for video and has the fastest, full-quality 4K sensor read time of all hybrids currently on the market. You can see the detailed tests by clicking on the model name in the live table, which will get you to here:
https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/#Sony%20A7S%20III
It's interesting to do the math of how the Sony A7S III's stills readout of 1/48 (20.91ms) increases to 1/113 (8.83ms) for full-quality 4K (no binning/line-skipping):
* Video uses a 12-bit readout vs 14-bit for stills. Based on my A7 III 14 vs 12 bit measurements, this reduces readout time by 56.7%
* 4K is 16:9, so that aspect ratio crop to achieve that from the 3:2 sensor reduces the # rows from 2832 (stills) to 2160 (4K UHD)
20.91ms (stills readout) * 0.567 (12-bit readout) * [2160/2832 rows] (16:9 crop) = 9.04ms, close to my 8.83ms 4K measurement.
What's interesting is my 4.2k ProRes RAW measurements match the 4K UHD, even though 4.2k raw has 2408 rows vs 2160 for 4K UHD.
Mar 28, 2024 at 07:28 AM