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Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

Recently I've been doing a lot of photography with owls, which are quite elusive.

I came across a video on youtube of people using thermal imaging monoculars to better see, identify, and find them.

Wanted to see if anyone on these forums has any experience with it. Looks like you can get "cheap" ones for $1K USD, and "top of the line" for around $4K USD.

Any info would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Nick

Edited on Jan 28, 2024 at 10:40 PM · View previous versions

Nov 17, 2023 at 09:21 AM

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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

Opening this up to night vision as well... since I see that is a much cheaper entry point

and now I'm learning they have some that incorporate night vision and thermals combined..

Nov 17, 2023 at 01:53 PM

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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

All right, a question with some overlap to another life.

I don't have much experience with civilian thermals other than the FLIR Scout TK unit, which I can say sucks. It wouldn't pick up the thermal signature of a raccoon in a tree that was 20m away, that I could clearly see in my night vision. The limitation of thermals, be it head mounted or handheld, is that you can't use them that well to move around, navigate, make sure you're not tripping on logs in the dark, etc. Detection-wise, a good thermal unit will definitely identify things faster than with night vision. But moving around in the dark, unless you want to go white light, you'll be a lot more limited. (If your plan is to stay in one location and wait for owls, this may not be an issue, but if you're out wandering the woods, it would be.)

Night vision. These will be more broadly useful at night, as it's a lot more doable to move around and navigate with. This does take practice, and tempering your expectations. You're not going to move around as though it were daylight, but you'll be leaps and bounds over trying to navigate by moonlight alone. A headlamp would be easier of course, but then I'm guessing that may spook the owls. The amount you can see in night vision will depend a lot on the conditions and the quality of your unit; I wouldn't go any lower than a gen3 unit. A moonless cloudy night is gonna suck regardless of tube quality, but even partial moonlight will let you see pretty well.

I've never seen owls at night, but given that they're nocturnal and have eyes tuned for the night, my guess is that they're like raccoons or cats. If you look at them with night vision, and they're looking at you, their eyes light up, especially if you're using IR illumination of some kind on them. That's even something as small as a PVS-14's built-in illuminator, that's been more than enough to spot raccoons up in the trees above the chicken coop.

I dunno about a cheaper entry point, but I guess compared to the more expensive thermals, sure. A new PVS-14 is $3-5k depending on The cheapest I'd recommend is a used PVS-14 for $2-2.5k. You would also need some means to wear it, such as a ballistic helmet, bump (non-ballistic) helmet, skull crusher (not recommended, guess where it got the name) or something like a Crye nightcap. You'll also need a J-arm and a rhino mount to attach the monocular to the head wear. The cheapest option for that stuff would be a used/surplus Army MICH/ACH helmet, NV helmet bracket, rhino mount and J-arm. Total would be $2.5k-3k roughly there, going with a used PVS-14 and all surplus USGI gear.

If you want to spend more money, the sky's the limit. My experience is mostly with PVS-14s, but there are much fancier and more expensive binocular units that cost upwards of $15k. There are even the quads that cost up to $45-60k. I'd say this is an insane level of cost that's outside the realm of most hobbies, but hey, I'm on a photography forum.

Nov 17, 2023 at 05:06 PM

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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

The Rat wrote:
All right, a question with some overlap to another life.

I don't have much experience with civilian thermals other than the FLIR Scout TK unit, which I can say sucks. It wouldn't pick up the thermal signature of a raccoon in a tree that was 20m away, that I could clearly see in my night vision. The limitation of thermals, be it head mounted or handheld, is that you can't use them that well to move around, navigate, make sure you're not tripping on logs in the dark, etc. Detection-wise, a good thermal unit will definitely identify things faster than with night vision. But moving around in the dark, unless you want to go white light, you'll be a lot more limited. (If your plan is to stay in one location and wait for owls, this may not be an issue, but if you're out wandering the woods, it would be.)

Night vision. These will be more broadly useful at night, as it's a lot more doable to move around and navigate with. This does take practice, and tempering your expectations. You're not going to move around as though it were daylight, but you'll be leaps and bounds over trying to navigate by moonlight alone. A headlamp would be easier of course, but then I'm guessing that may spook the owls. The amount you can see in night vision will depend a lot on the conditions and the quality of your unit; I wouldn't go any lower than a gen3 unit. A moonless cloudy night is gonna suck regardless of tube quality, but even partial moonlight will let you see pretty well.

I've never seen owls at night, but given that they're nocturnal and have eyes tuned for the night, my guess is that they're like raccoons or cats. If you look at them with night vision, and they're looking at you, their eyes light up, especially if you're using IR illumination of some kind on them. That's even something as small as a PVS-14's built-in illuminator, that's been more than enough to spot raccoons up in the trees above the chicken coop.

I dunno about a cheaper entry point, but I guess compared to the more expensive thermals, sure. A new PVS-14 is $3-5k depending on The cheapest I'd recommend is a used PVS-14 for $2-2.5k. You would also need some means to wear it, such as a ballistic helmet, bump (non-ballistic) helmet, skull crusher (not recommended, guess where it got the name) or something like a Crye nightcap. You'll also need a J-arm and a rhino mount to attach the monocular to the head wear. The cheapest option for that stuff would be a used/surplus Army MICH/ACH helmet, NV helmet bracket, rhino mount and J-arm. Total would be $2.5k-3k roughly there, going with a used PVS-14 and all surplus USGI gear.

If you want to spend more money, the sky's the limit. My experience is mostly with PVS-14s, but there are much fancier and more expensive binocular units that cost upwards of $15k. There are even the quads that cost up to $45-60k. I'd say this is an insane level of cost that's outside the realm of most hobbies, but hey, I'm on a photography forum.

My one caveat is don't buy a PVS-7. They suck. They're splitting the image from one lens over both of your eyes, meaning you don't get any depth perception. Every single time I've walked around in the dark with a PVS-7, I've busted my ass on something trivial. With at least a single PVS-14, you have some depth perception and awareness from your non-NV eye. Binocular night vision similarly gives you depth perception, and can be a better on very dark nights. Most professional orgs (MIL/LE) have been moving to binoculars in the last many years, so I presume there's a lot of value with them. I just can't afford them, especially since I don't use my NV much anymore. My only binocular experience is with two PVS-14s in a bridge mount, which worked well, but was heavy.

Side tangential note, looking at the stars with night vision is always awe inspiring.

Hopefully this is some food for thought! You can find a lot about night vision on various websites and forums out there....Show more →

This is excellent stuff thank you!

I'm envisioning my use case would mainly be walking through the woods, stop, whip out a thermal or NV, look around 360 degrees and then keep moving for a bit, and repeat. I don't imagine I'd be trying to walk with either gear up "in use".

I have some millitary buddies with NV gear so I'll be getting to test some of theirs out soon, as well as some family members down in Texas who hunt with NV that I didn't know about until I started chatting with them about it recently.

I'm thinking of going with the new Pular Telos XP LRF for around ~$4K USD if I can find one in stock, as a thermal.

My understanding is that thermal is better for detection, and NV is better for identification. I'm mainly interesting in scanning areas and seeing if I can find nested owls, bedded owls, etc. so that I know where to setup during dawn/dusk to hopefully see them in the future.

I'm planning on also picking up a cheap $200 Dsoon N2 NV binos to mess around with in the backyard, or for times when I've been out owling until dark, and want to keep watching them for a bit

Nov 18, 2023 at 12:56 PM

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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

updating this thread in case anyone else finds it one day

I ended up purchasing this "cheap" dsoon night vision binocular on amazon:

https://a.co/d/4OHhnuh

it works surprisingly well for the price ($100 on sale for Cyber Monday).

however, as expected - night vision is pretty useless to me. it is great if you have the bird or nest already located, but it does not help very much, if at all, in locating it.

I did end up buying the $4K USD Pulsar Telos XP50 LRF, so I have that coming this week and then will be out and about with it

Nov 27, 2023 at 04:09 PM

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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

That looks like a pretty low end unit (no surprise at that price, no criticism either, it is what it is at that price point), which from my understanding don't gather light as well. What could help you with those is some kind of IR flashlight/illuminator unit. Here's an example, there are many on the market: https://tnvc.com/shop/tnvc-torch-pro-infrared-illuminator/

It would be worth looking at your mil buddies' NV before you write it off entirely, there's a big difference between the cheaper units and a proper gen3 unit.

Curious to hear your impressions/results on the Pulsar!

Nov 27, 2023 at 04:28 PM

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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

After hemming and hawing for a few years, I finally threw caution to the wind on BF last week and bought a pair of PVS14s and an MH25 thermal device. Wildlife spotting was definitely one use case I had in mind, so I’ll be sure to post my experience in that regard once I have the gear.

Nov 27, 2023 at 06:09 PM

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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

+1 using nvg for comets spotting & stargazing!

quality 3rd gen bino nvg can get outrageously expensive. befriend a doomsday prepper for access to a pair of nvg.. ))

The Rat wrote:
All right, a question with some overlap to another life.

I don't have much experience with civilian thermals other than the FLIR Scout TK unit, which I can say sucks. It wouldn't pick up the thermal signature of a raccoon in a tree that was 20m away, that I could clearly see in my night vision. The limitation of thermals, be it head mounted or handheld, is that you can't use them that well to move around, navigate, make sure you're not tripping on logs in the dark, etc. Detection-wise, a good thermal unit will definitely identify things faster than with night vision. But moving around in the dark, unless you want to go white light, you'll be a lot more limited. (If your plan is to stay in one location and wait for owls, this may not be an issue, but if you're out wandering the woods, it would be.)

Night vision. These will be more broadly useful at night, as it's a lot more doable to move around and navigate with. This does take practice, and tempering your expectations. You're not going to move around as though it were daylight, but you'll be leaps and bounds over trying to navigate by moonlight alone. A headlamp would be easier of course, but then I'm guessing that may spook the owls. The amount you can see in night vision will depend a lot on the conditions and the quality of your unit; I wouldn't go any lower than a gen3 unit. A moonless cloudy night is gonna suck regardless of tube quality, but even partial moonlight will let you see pretty well.

I've never seen owls at night, but given that they're nocturnal and have eyes tuned for the night, my guess is that they're like raccoons or cats. If you look at them with night vision, and they're looking at you, their eyes light up, especially if you're using IR illumination of some kind on them. That's even something as small as a PVS-14's built-in illuminator, that's been more than enough to spot raccoons up in the trees above the chicken coop.

I dunno about a cheaper entry point, but I guess compared to the more expensive thermals, sure. A new PVS-14 is $3-5k depending on The cheapest I'd recommend is a used PVS-14 for $2-2.5k. You would also need some means to wear it, such as a ballistic helmet, bump (non-ballistic) helmet, skull crusher (not recommended, guess where it got the name) or something like a Crye nightcap. You'll also need a J-arm and a rhino mount to attach the monocular to the head wear. The cheapest option for that stuff would be a used/surplus Army MICH/ACH helmet, NV helmet bracket, rhino mount and J-arm. Total would be $2.5k-3k roughly there, going with a used PVS-14 and all surplus USGI gear.

If you want to spend more money, the sky's the limit. My experience is mostly with PVS-14s, but there are much fancier and more expensive binocular units that cost upwards of $15k. There are even the quads that cost up to $45-60k. I'd say this is an insane level of cost that's outside the realm of most hobbies, but hey, I'm on a photography forum.

Nov 28, 2023 at 09:58 AM

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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

mitesh wrote:
After hemming and hawing for a few years, I finally threw caution to the wind on BF last week and bought a pair of PVS14s and an MH25 thermal device. Wildlife spotting was definitely one use case I had in mind, so I’ll be sure to post my experience in that regard once I have the gear.

Nice! Getting a dual bridge mount for the PVS14s? I had one to go with a pair of 14s, the thought being that I could use both as binos for very dark nights, but still be able to split one off for a friend. Ended up selling one 14 and the bridge mount to help fund a new floor, but it was nice while it lasted.

tntcorp1 wrote:
+1 using nvg for comets spotting & stargazing!

quality 3rd gen bino nvg can get outrageously expensive. befriend a doomsday prepper for access to a pair of nvg.. ))

I'm just sticking to a single 14 at this point, I'm not using them for chicken coop defense duty anymore, so without that frequent use, I can't really justify upgrading them at this point. Besides, I've done a lot with a single 14 in the past, I don't feel a big need for a more expensive set of binos.

Nov 28, 2023 at 10:19 AM

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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

The Rat wrote:
Nice! Getting a dual bridge mount for the PVS14s? I had one to go with a pair of 14s, the thought being that I could use both as binos for very dark nights, but still be able to split one off for a friend. Ended up selling one 14 and the bridge mount to help fund a new floor, but it was nice while it lasted.

Yes sir, went with the Mod Armory bridge. Really hoping that the 14 + MH25 combo can work well enough with my brain to allow a “fusion” type set up.

Nov 28, 2023 at 12:19 PM

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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

The Rat wrote:
That looks like a pretty low end unit (no surprise at that price, no criticism either, it is what it is at that price point), which from my understanding don't gather light as well. What could help you with those is some kind of IR flashlight/illuminator unit. Here's an example, there are many on the market: https://tnvc.com/shop/tnvc-torch-pro-infrared-illuminator/

It would be worth looking at your mil buddies' NV before you write it off entirely, there's a big difference between the cheaper units and a proper gen3 unit.

Curious to hear your impressions/results on the Pulsar!

This one, albeit cheap does have an IR flashlight/illuminator. It works great as far as I can tell. Seems to match basically the top end units for all intents and purposes.

Again, NV overall just doesn't seem very useful for me

here's a video on it and I find the results to be pretty good! next summer when all the big bucks are in velvet laying in fields, I'm sure I'll get some use instead of spotlighting them

https://youtu.be/RQnOOmNCMTE

mitesh wrote:
After hemming and hawing for a few years, I finally threw caution to the wind on BF last week and bought a pair of PVS14s and an MH25 thermal device. Wildlife spotting was definitely one use case I had in mind, so I’ll be sure to post my experience in that regard once I have the gear.

beautiful! looking forward to it. I've seen a lot of praise for PVS14s

Nov 28, 2023 at 12:28 PM

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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

mitesh wrote:
Yes sir, went with the Mod Armory bridge. Really hoping that the 14 + MH25 combo can work well enough with my brain to allow a “fusion” type set up.

Nice, that's the bridge mount I used to have. It was a solid unit, no issues. I don't have experience with the fusion setup like you describe, though I've heard mixed reports. I will say that with dual 14s, having a counterweight on the back of your helmet will help a lot.

I did recently get a Crye Nightcap and an ACH chinstrap to replace the stock one. I'm going to try and use it some next spring/summer for sunrise hikes, on trails that I've already done in daylight. Figure it'd be a fun way of putting my 14 to use, but also packable enough that I can stuff it into my backpack after sunrise and not be walking around a national park with a helmet on my head.

Nov 28, 2023 at 01:40 PM

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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

here's some updated info cross posted from my recent trip to the sax zim bog - https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1840724

Thermal Monocular - Pulsar Telos LRF XP50

I will probably make an additional post somewhere with this info, but this turned out to be the most important part of my birding kit, and will probably continue to be impactful moving forward
I had seen someone else use a thermal on a blog on youtube: Video
after doing research I pulled the trigger in early December and mainly used it for Great Horned Owls and Short Eared Owls locally
the general idea is that it allows you to track heat
my dad would drive the vehicle 30-55MPH (whatever was appropriate) and I would lean out the window and scan with the thermal
several times we would see hares, grouse, or owls that we could've never seen with the naked eye - especially at speed
the only downside I have found so far is that is has a rather narrow field of view (FOV). it would excel someplace open like Yellowstone, but was a bit too tight for the quarters we were in. I will be looking to purchase an additional thermal with a wider FOV in the future

Pictures

#1 - group of photographers watching an owl
#2 - Great Gray Owl perched
#3 - Great Gray Owl obscured by branches
#4 - Great Gray Owl perched
#5 - Ruffed Grouse
#6 - Snowshoe hare
#7 - Bald Eagle
#8 - 10 Ravens, Bald Eagles, and Magpies in the woods near a wolf + deer carcass

Jan 10, 2024 at 08:54 PM

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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

Very nice! Looks like all of the smaller critters still show up pretty well. Should be excellent for your purposes, though like you say, one with a wider FOV could be useful as well.

Definitely better than the FLIR Scout TK that I had that wouldn't even pick up a raccoon's heat signature in a tree.

Jan 11, 2024 at 11:07 AM

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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

The Rat wrote:
Very nice! Looks like all of the smaller critters still show up pretty well. Should be excellent for your purposes, though like you say, one with a wider FOV could be useful as well.

Definitely better than the FLIR Scout TK that I had that wouldn't even pick up a raccoon's heat signature in a tree.

FOV is definitely the biggest limiting factor so far. This one would excel in Yellowstone. We could pick up deer at 500 yards with ease. Bald Eagles/Ravens at 200 yards.

There's a similar priced Pulsar Lexion XP28 with significantly wider FOV, but from what I can tell it's for millitary/police only. Still trying to figure out how I can get my hands on that.

I've also been toying with the idea of getting a thermal drone. Figuring that would be very helpful for mammals, less so for birds.

Jan 11, 2024 at 12:57 PM

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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

https://www.google.com/search?q=night+vision+site%3Aar15.com&oq=night+vision+site%3Aar15.com&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDY2ODJqMGoxqAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

This is the only place I've seen discussion.

Jan 11, 2024 at 08:00 PM

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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

skid00skid00 wrote:
https://www.google.com/search?q=night+vision+site%3Aar15.com&oq=night+vision+site%3Aar15.com&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDY2ODJqMGoxqAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

This is the only place I've seen discussion.

thanks!

it seems like right now the manufacturers are only catering to hunters, usually boar or coyote

for anyone still reading at home, I absolutely love my Telos XP50, but I desire something with a bit wider FOV.

it was an aspect I didn't understand or appreciate until I got mine.

so I just purchased a Helion XP28 that will hopefully improve my game.

Telos XP50 - 12.4 x 9.3 FOV
Helion XP28 - 22 x 16.6 FOV

if for some reason it's not wide enough, I'm considering a Pulsar HD19A, but that's an ancient piece of equipment and seems near impossible to find...

Jan 24, 2024 at 08:50 PM

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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

My buddy and I went out owling this morning. I had the XP28, gave my buddy the XP50.

We ended up finding 2 barred owls and 2 screech owls. All 4 were seen by me first (wide POV), but he could get more detail (higher mag).

I could walk around and scan just left-to-right, while he had to scan left-to-right in addition to up-and-down due to the small FOV.

For me, there is no contest. Wide FOV seems to be the most important aspect of a thermal for birding. We switched thermals halfway through the morning and I was frustrated with how tight the POV was on the doubly as expensive XP50.

Strongly considering selling the XP50 for an iRay ZH38, but not sure I want to run 1 Pulsar and 1 iRay. Definitely never gonna sell the XP28.

The XP50 would be useful somewhere wide open like Yellowstone, but I don't think it's of much value locally in tight Michigan woods.

additionally, I've got a lot of friends interested in trying out thermals - but are understandably scared by the price. my new goal is to find something sub $2K that would work well... and is available new. seems Pulsar no longer offers wide FOV options new, so the only hope there is to buy used and discontinued.. which has its own risks. here is a list I've compiled from different forums. since I think FOV is the most important, I have filtered that way with best ones at top, and worst at bottom.

as a frame of reference, here are two pictures taken on the river (30 seconds apart despite the time difference - I need to update the XP28)

2.5 mag vs 1.4 mag - Telos XP 50 vs Helion XP28

Jan 27, 2024 at 01:55 PM

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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

nmerc_photos wrote:
My buddy and I went out owling this morning. I had the XP28, gave my buddy the XP50.

We ended up finding 2 barred owls and 2 screech owls. All 4 were seen by me first (wide POV), but he could get more detail (higher mag).

I could walk around and scan just left-to-right, while he had to scan left-to-right in addition to up-and-down due to the small FOV.

For me, there is no contest. Wide FOV seems to be the most important aspect of a thermal for birding. We switched thermals halfway through the morning and I was frustrated with how tight...Show more →

Thanks for the ongoing reports, Nick. I ordered an iRay MH-25 on Black Friday and it has been backordered since. It's 17.5(H)x13.1(V) FOV. Based on your experience so far, how do you think that would work for similar use as yours?

Jan 28, 2024 at 01:40 PM

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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Thermal Imaging / Night Vision for Birdwatching?

mitesh wrote:
Thanks for the ongoing reports, Nick. I ordered an iRay MH-25 on Black Friday and it has been backordered since. It's 17.5(H)x13.1(V) FOV. Based on your experience so far, how do you think that would work for similar use as yours?

Hello Mitesh,

Based on my running spreadsheet, the iRay MH-25 looks to be a top contender. One of the best optics that isn't discontinued. (attached)

I would still probably want something a bit wider (even with my XP28 I find myself scanning in portrait mode to get the most vertical FOV)! but it will certainly be good

Jan 28, 2024 at 03:00 PM

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