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Archive 2023 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?

  
 
1bwana1
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p.2 #1 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?




CanadaMark wrote:
Sorry maybe I am misunderstanding something then, but you made the comment that the Sony AF was unmatched in the non-stacked realm but you haven't actually seen any testing against the Zf? What am I missing there?

I watched Sony's promo video but I didn't see anything in there that the Z8/Z9 don't already do AF-wise. I don't have a Zf to comment on that though. With Expeed 7 the basic AF performance (subject recognition, etc.) should be very similar to the higher end bodies, albeit with a much slower refresh rate.


It takes a pretty biased eye to miss all the predictive and motion AI demonstrated in that video. The Z8/9 doesn't have that.

But OK. This is the same tactic you guys used when the World was moving from DSLRs to mirrorless. Then when defending the really poor Z6/Z7 release. Followed by denying the advantages of the stacked sensor untill Nikon was allowed to release one. It didn't fly then and doesn't now either.

This isn't a brand thing so much as a state of the art thing. Nikon will follow suite in a couple of years as always. But you know that.



Oct 23, 2023 at 04:22 PM
RoamingScott
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p.2 #2 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


1bwana1 wrote:
It takes a pretty biased eye to miss all the predictive and motion AI demonstrated in that video. The Z8/9 doesn't have that.

But OK. This is the same tactic you guys used when the World was moving from DSLRs to mirrorless. Then when defending the really poor Z6/Z7 release. Followed by denying the advantages of the stacked sensor untill Nikon was allowed to release one. It didn't fly then and doesn't now either.

This isn't a brand thing so much as a state of the art thing. Nikon will follow suite in a couple of years as always. But you know
...Show more

The Z9 4.10 update CLEARLY added predictive elements to the AF algorithm, which is leading to far better stickiness when the subject goes behind foreground objects without the AF losing the subject, and they somehow managed to do that without a dedicated "ai chip". Weird.

Of course there is no documentation about this comparing brands, so let's not pretend there is. Thanks to firmware updates, this is an evolving conversation. Your weird shoulder chip about Nikon bleeds through, and then you blame other people for your own weird biases. Stop.



Oct 23, 2023 at 04:34 PM
1bwana1
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p.2 #3 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


RoamingScott wrote:
The Z9 4.10 update CLEARLY added predictive elements to the AF algorithm, which is leading to far better stickiness when the subject goes behind foreground objects without the AF losing the subject, and they somehow managed to do that without a dedicated "ai chip". Weird.



To play the game you guys do, I will ask that you show me Nikon documentation that the latest Z9 update includes AI driven predictive AF. You can't because so far it doesn't exist.

Although, I do agree that especially in the wide area autofocus is getting closer to Sony in both capability and workflow.

Funny that the "old way" Nikon did it was better, until they did it the new way. That is not about the camera, the brand, or the technology. It is about how some approach the discussions. It is like they complete forget their prior posts. Now that is "weird".





Edited on Oct 23, 2023 at 05:04 PM · View previous versions



Oct 23, 2023 at 05:03 PM
CanadaMark
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p.2 #4 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


1bwana1 wrote:
It takes a pretty biased eye to miss all the predictive and motion AI demonstrated in that video. The Z8/9 doesn't have that.

But OK. This is the same tactic you guys used when the World was moving from DSLRs to mirrorless. Then when defending the really poor Z6/Z7 release. Followed by denying the advantages of the stacked sensor untill Nikon was allowed to release one. It didn't fly then and doesn't now either.

This isn't a brand thing so much as a state of the art thing. Nikon will follow suite in a couple of years as always. But you know
...Show more

I'm just confirming that you were making a statement about the Zf without actually seeing any kind of comparison, because I genuinely wanted to see it if you had found one. Without anything like that from reputable sources (not Sony's PR team), I don't see how you can come to definitive conclusion about it's AF performance. It's Nikon's first non-stacked camera with Expeed7 and the Z8/Z9 algorithms so I'm very curious to see some comparisons as well, to the extent that we can even compare AF objectively.

Other than a few broken records here, this general idea that Sony AF is the be-all end-all of AF is nowhere to be found. Just as one example, professional reviewers have been disagreeing with that notion ever since the Z9 was released, but I guess it's easier to ignore any evidence that doesn't fit the narrative, or discredit anyone who had a different experience.

Other cameras can detect sunglasses, cars, trains, etc. and are smart enough to stay on the head when the subject turns around, that isn't anything new. I watched the video a second time and I fail to see what it's doing that other cameras can't. The comparisons all seem to be made against the A7R4 rather than any of Sony's newer competition, so the bar is a lot lower. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just saying as someone who actually uses a Z9 almost every day, I have seen it do all the same things I see in that video and be just as sticky. As far as I know the Zf is using the same algorithms, but obviously won't have the sample rate of a stacked sensor for the most demanding scenes.

Who are you referring to when you say "you guys"? I was one of the longer holdouts to mirrorless Until the A1/R3/Z9 I didn't feel like Mirrorless had surpassed the best DSLRs so I stuck with what I had. I specifically did not invest into mirrorless until there was a stacked sensor body available that met my needs.

Edited on Oct 23, 2023 at 05:05 PM · View previous versions



Oct 23, 2023 at 05:03 PM
Buckeye2604
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p.2 #5 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?




1bwana1 wrote:
It takes a pretty biased eye to miss all the predictive and motion AI demonstrated in that video. The Z8/9 doesn't have that.

But OK. This is the same tactic you guys used when the World was moving from DSLRs to mirrorless. Then when defending the really poor Z6/Z7 release. Followed by denying the advantages of the stacked sensor untill Nikon was allowed to release one. It didn't fly then and doesn't now either.

This isn't a brand thing so much as a state of the art thing. Nikon will follow suite in a couple of years as always. But you know
...Show more
To be honest I could not find a thing in that video that the Z8/9/Zf would struggle with.



Oct 23, 2023 at 05:04 PM
JustShootMe
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p.2 #6 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


Why does it always come down to “Sony does X” ? Canon is just as good without an “Insert marketing here” chip. Let’s just move along to the topic at hand and stop the fanboyisms .


Oct 23, 2023 at 05:13 PM
RoamingScott
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p.2 #7 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


1bwana1 wrote:
To play the game you guys do, I will ask that you show me Nikon documentation that the latest Z9 update includes AI driven predictive AF. You can't because so far it doesn't exist.

Although, I do agree that especially in the wide area autofocus is getting closer to Sony in both capability and workflow.

Funny that the "old way" Nikon did it was better, until they did it the new way. That is not about the camera, the brand, or the technology. It is about how some approach the discussions. It is like they complete forget their prior posts.
...Show more

No one plays the game like you Steve

Weird how you're in EVERY Nikon thread with zero first hand experience with the current crop of cameras. Reminds me of a certain Daniel character that likes to talk about things he doesn't understand

Edited on Oct 23, 2023 at 05:21 PM · View previous versions



Oct 23, 2023 at 05:20 PM
patotts
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p.2 #8 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


We all know that camera AF system is only half the equation, it also depends on what you subjects you are shooting and the experience and skills of the operator. An experienced, talented and skilled photographer always win, regardless of gear.

Also, a lot of the incremental improvements in today's technology are lost on many. If you are happy with the results you are getting from a Nikon Z7 or Sony A7Riii/whatever - be happy and content. Comparison is the thief of joy, as Teddy Roosevelt famously said.

Having said all of this, as a happy, albeit pretty experienced by now, amateur photographer I have owned and used the Sony A1, A7RV, A7IV and A7Riii extensively, and for my use cases of people, portrait, travel, and some sport photography I can confidently state that the AI-driven AF in Sony's latest generation cameras does make a meaningful and noticeable improvement in terms of tracking people. Distance, stickiness, predicting face and eyes location, etc. Again, if you don't want or need that improvement then it doesn't matter at all and is not worth paying for.

Here is an old comp between the Sony A7RV and the Canon R5 - take a look 5:45 in

&ab_channel=TheSlantedLens

Last point, I promise. Even if I take this into consideration, I do think the Nikon Z8 is probably a better camera/system for me at this point. I'm renting one to dig in deeper.



Oct 23, 2023 at 05:20 PM
1bwana1
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p.2 #9 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


CanadaMark wrote:
Sorry maybe I am misunderstanding something then, but you made the comment that the Sony AF was unmatched in the non-stacked realm but you haven't actually seen any testing against the Zf? What am I missing there?

I'm just confirming that you were making a statement about the Zf without actually seeing any kind of comparison, because I genuinely wanted to see it if you had found one. Without anything like that from reputable sources (not Sony's PR team), I don't see how you can come to definitive conclusion about it's AF performance. It's Nikon's first non-stacked camera with Expeed7 and
...Show more

I have said many times here in this forum that I think there is functional parity in AF between the results the A1 and Z9 can achieve in AF and images produced. I have said that to me it seems the preference will be based on other attributes such as size weight, and form factor.

At the same time, I have seen many reviews on the Zf and it's autofocus. I have also read reports of difficulties with some parts of the AF in the Zf even here in this forum. These are being called bugs at this point and some say they have referred these to Nikon for fixing. The Sony latest generation AF implementation performs better at a minimum in those areas.

From my shooting and brief experience with the Zf over two sessions so far, I do not find it as solid as the new Sony implementations. This is an admittedly insufficient amount of experience. But to me it showed up in acquisition, reacquisition, temporary loss from obstacles, and capabilities at distance when the subject is small in the screen. As I said, I think these things will be born out when side by side testing is done as it surely will be shortly.

So, do I think the Zf AF is an improvement over previous implementations in non stacked sensor Nikon cameras? Yes absolutely, and by a good margin. It is equal or better than Sony's implementation in the the previous generation cameras that were named by the OP. I said so explicitly in my posts. But so far in my opinion it is not up to Sony's latest generation cameras. If when the side by side testing is done, and if I am shown to be mistaken, I will happily say so.

Interestingly I find the manual focus implementation in the Zf better than any in the Sony system. When shooting in live view mode even better that the Leica.



Edited on Oct 23, 2023 at 05:28 PM · View previous versions



Oct 23, 2023 at 05:22 PM
1bwana1
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p.2 #10 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


patotts wrote:
Having said all of this, as a happy, albeit pretty experienced by now, amateur photographer I have owned and used the Sony A1, A7RV, A7IV and A7Riii extensively, and for my use cases of people, portrait, travel, and some sport photography I can confidently state that the AI-driven AF in Sony's latest generation cameras does make a meaningful and noticeable improvement in terms of tracking people. Distance, stickiness, predicting face and eyes location, etc. Again, if you don't want or need that improvement then it doesn't matter at all and is not worth paying for.

Here is an old comp between
...Show more

Exactly what I have experienced and posted in this discussion.


patotts wrote:
Last point, I promise. Even if I take this into consideration, I do think the Nikon Z8 is probably a better camera/system for me at this point. I'm renting one to dig in deeper.


Also in total agreement with what I have been saying in this thread. The Af is so competent in all of them that the choice should be made taking into consideration of many other attributes.




Oct 23, 2023 at 05:26 PM
CanadaMark
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p.2 #11 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


1bwana1 wrote:
So, do I think the Zf AF is an improvement over previous implementations in non stacked sensor Nikon cameras? Yes absolutely, and by a good margin. It is equal or better than Sony's implementation in the the previous generation cameras that were named by the OP. I said so explicitly in my posts. But so far in my opinion it is not up to Sony's latest generation cameras. If when the side by side testing is done, and if I am shown to be mistaken, I will happily say so.



If it was just your personal opinion then why not qualify it as such, rather than categorically state Sony is unmatched without any real evidence?

Nikon's AF is AI based as well, and at least based on Sony's promo video attempting to showcase the AI performance, there is nothing in that video that other cameras can't already do. It looks like it's aimed at A7R4 users trying to get them to upgrade to the 5. Exactly how the AI is used, implemented and processed is not public knowledge, and without knowing that, how can one say if it would be better or worse than a camera with dedicated AI processor? For all we know, the Expeed 7 has enough grunt to do both - I am not saying it does, only that nobody knows. Nikon actually claims it is "powerful enough to omit a dedicated autofocus engine". Back in the DSLR days there were cameras without dedicated AF processors that outperformed cameras with dedicated AF processors, and there were cameras with single processors that outperformed cameras with dual processors - there are many other factors in that equation and unfortunately very little of it is published.



Oct 23, 2023 at 05:34 PM
1bwana1
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p.2 #12 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


CanadaMark wrote:
If it was just your personal opinion then why not qualify it as such, rather than categorically state Sony is unmatched without any real evidence?



I get your point on this. I guess I was just channeling our friend BernardL.

Seriously, we were asked our opinion, and I stated mine, which I still stand by until shown otherwise.



Oct 23, 2023 at 05:48 PM
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p.2 #13 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


It’s the Indian, not the arrow. Any of the top 3 names are capable of making better images than 98% of us are, even those that believe they’re in the top 2%!

Get wichever fits your hand well and has controls and menu access that are convenient for the way you shoot. Then select the model that has the features you want. Then build your glass. It’s a relative PITA to sell top end gear and swap into a totally different system, but doable — still best to make a good initial decision and stay with it.



Oct 23, 2023 at 06:06 PM
1bwana1
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p.2 #14 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


gear-nut wrote:
It’s the Indian, not the arrow. Any of the top 3 names are capable of making better images than 98% of us are, even those that believe they’re in the top 2%!

Get wichever fits your hand well and has controls and menu access that are convenient for the way you shoot. Then select the model that has the features you want. Then build your glass. It’s a relative PITA to sell top end gear and swap into a totally different system, but doable — still best to make a good initial decision and stay with it.


Agree



Oct 23, 2023 at 06:14 PM
bernardl
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p.2 #15 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?



1bwana1 wrote:
It takes a pretty biased eye to miss all the predictive and motion AI demonstrated in that video. The Z8/9 doesn't have that.

But OK. This is the same tactic you guys used when the World was moving from DSLRs to mirrorless. Then when defending the really poor Z6/Z7 release. Followed by denying the advantages of the stacked sensor untill Nikon was allowed to release one. It didn't fly then and doesn't now either.

This isn't a brand thing so much as a state of the art thing. Nikon will follow suite in a couple of years as always. But you know
...Show more

There is no game.

There is you making an unsubstantiated claim based on the a priori belief that Sony is superior. You portray an opinion as a fact.

There really isn’t anything else to this discussion.

Cheers,
Bernard



Oct 23, 2023 at 07:24 PM
photo558
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p.2 #16 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


I bought the A7c for its size, weight, supposed good AF performance when it came out and used it excessively since then with Sony's 85mm, 55mm, 35mm, Tamron 70-180mm & several old, manual lenses, in various scenarios.
I can only speak from my own experience, but I would never buy this camera again and here is why.

- The tiny EVF is almost useless, especially in sunny conditions, or situations with contrast and shadow near the frame. What's even worse and totally unacceptable is the fact that with sun at a particular angle behind, the EVF goes completely black and the sun reflects straight into the eye, blinding you!

- The 1/4000s shutter makes it impossible to use lenses wide open at ~F2 (with -0.7 EC) in bright conditions.

- Autofocus - it's unreliable from my personal experience. During events AF wide focuses often on anything but faces. I'm forced to use single point with tracking, which is unreliable as well, as it often focuses on backgrounds (behind objects, even in static situations), while giving initial impression/confirmation on screen, that everything is fine.

- Screen... It's bad.

- ISO grain looks ugly and artificial, especially on faces.

- IBIS for video is completely useless.

- Lack of buttons. Some functions have dependencies. You can't use this, or that, if this or that is chosen. You have to dive into menus to toggle things. Some of the Video/Photo settings are connected, which makes things unnecessary complicated on top.

To me the A7c feels like an awkward computer toy, rather than a camera (I'm talking about the overall photographic experience not the ergonomics of the "Sony NEX" shape, something I have no issues with).

I waited for the a7c II because I was convinced, Sony would address and improve some of the main problems, but I was shocked to see the 1/4000s shutter back, still a tiny EVF and bad LCD screen. This is a slap in the face for all Sony customers.

I ended up buying a Nikon D700 to have at least some joy while photographing. Despite the increased size, weight and limitations my a7c stays now at home almost all the time.

I'm looking for a replacement as well. One thing is for sure, it won't be another Sony camera, as I'm not willing to support this product strategy, or wait another 3 years for a real EVF.

The zf looks like a much better solution. I will still wait a bit to see what real users (who paid for the camera) have to say. One also has to consider that Nikon releases firmware updates, which could make this camera more "future proof".



Oct 24, 2023 at 04:07 AM
1bwana1
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p.2 #17 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?




bernardl wrote:
There is no game.

There is you making an unsubstantiated claim based on the a priori belief that Sony is superior. You portray an opinion as a fact.

There really isn’t anything else to this discussion.

Cheers,
Bernard



Actually there are many reports by Zf owners here on FM confirming that that the AF doesn't perform to Z8 standards. While there is also broad consensus that the new generation Sony AI processor cameras do perform at or even above A1 in many circumstances. Since many here are claiming parity between A1 and Z8/Z9 it seems my opinion is being confirmed.

I am happy to see your new viewpoint on how statements of superiority should be framed. This is not something you have adhered to in the past. I look forward to seeing you do so in the future.



Oct 24, 2023 at 05:15 AM
SiMuMe
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p.2 #18 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


phinix wrote:
What would be better choice now for family/travel photography - Nikon Zf or Sony body, like A7III, A7C etc
I don't know anything about Nikon system. How's Nikon's autofocus?
Is it better than Sony in anything?


You already have A7C. Stick with it or get the bigger Sonys. Also, Nikon's lenses are still "terribly big, and ugly".



Oct 24, 2023 at 05:18 AM
bernardl
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p.2 #19 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


1bwana1 wrote:
Actually there are many reports by Zf owners here on FM confirming that that the AF doesn't perform to Z8 standards. While there is also broad consensus that the new generation Sony AI processor cameras do perform at or even above A1 in many circumstances. Since many here are claiming parity between A1 and Z8/Z9 it seems my opinion is being confirmed.

I am happy to see your new viewpoint on how statements of superiority should be framed. This is not something you have adhered to in the past. I look forward to seeing you do so in the future.


Again, this is an opinion not based on first hand experience nor any objective test results.

Besides most of the reports here focus on one very specific and niche use case which is BIF. I have not seen any convincing comparison of the Z8/Z9 with latest firmware vs the a1 or a7rV on a broad scope of use cases. So your view that the a7rV is better than the Z8/Z9 because it is better than the a1 which is believed to be equal to the Z8/Z9 doesn't convince me, sorry. And the addition of the Zf to this series of vague comparisons has no additional value.

But regardless, I continue to think that your views are interesting.

Cheers,
Bernard




Oct 24, 2023 at 05:35 AM
saaketham
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p.2 #20 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


I've owned and shot with these cameras in the past 2 years - z6ii, z7ii, zfc, z8, z9, a6600, a9, a7R4, a1, a7R5.
My current kit is a1, a7R5, z6ii and Sony lenses with ETZ adapter to use on the z6ii.

Autofocus
- Sony wins by far, it just works without any fuss
- a1 is top notch at BIF - it's an incredible, compact and super-performer body that keeps working without fuss
- a7R5 is incredible at subject identification and sticking on the subject's eyes
- Even the entry level APS-C a6600 and a9 (version 1) are awesome
- Sony's about to drop the a9iii

Ergonomics, Look/Feel
- I found z8 beautiful, but a bit bulky and heavy, z9 was ridiculously heavy/bulky (personal pref of course)
- z6ii, z7ii are perfect, in my opinion - looks-wise and ease of holding due to the nice deep grip
- a1 feels plasticky and toy-like, but I have gotten used to it now (and you can apply a skin to cover up ugliness)
- a7R5 with a baseplate fits perfectly in my hands

Image Quality
- Sony for action
- Nikon for landscapes
- Both are good for portraits (except Sony's colors are a bit odd sometimes)

Lens Selection
- Sony has Sony, Sigma, Tamron, Zeiss, Voigtlander, Sigma and other brands offering tons of options
- Nikon has Nikon and access to all the above with an adapter, although you won't get native performance
- Nikon lenses are typically heavier and bigger (70-200 S vs 70-200 GM ii, for example or 50 f/1.2)

Specific lenses I like
- Z 24-70 S - is awesome and I feel it gives 3D pop
- 70-200mm f/2.8 GM ii - incredible, small and lightweight lens for its class and top-notch IQ
- 35mm f/1.4 GM - my favorite for almost all occasions, especially low-light indoor events
- 600mm f/4 GM - $9500 used, it's an incredible wildlife lens
- 50mm f/1.2 S and GM - GM being smaller and lighter

Super-telephoto Lenses
- Nikon's top end lenses are much more $$$ than Sony's
- Nikon has unique lenses that you cannot find on e-Mount - 500 PF, 400 f/4.5, 600 PF (coming soon), 800 PF

High ISO
- I find Nikon's files to be cleanest at higher ISO
- Although, with Adobe Camera Raw and Topaz, etc - you can clean up almost ANY high ISO file

In the end, I opted to shoot mostly Sony for the zero-fuss AF as I love the performance of the a1.
But bought a z6ii recently because I missed the clean high ISO and ISO 64 landscapes from the z bodies.

Original Question - zf vs Sony cameras
Folks who buy zf do so mostly because it looks so beautiful (so does the zfc) and the retro look and feel.
No Sony camera matches the kind of elegance and beauty that a zfc or zf (I have not personally used one, but looks beautiful in images and videos) offers.
So, if you're buying the zf primarily due to its looks, there's it's an easy decision.



Oct 24, 2023 at 06:51 AM
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