p.4 #3 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
Flash645 wrote:
If I had it to do all over again, I NEVER would have switched from the 850 to the Z line.
I would personally never go back to DSLRs.. one difference is perhaps that I use Capture One. I find the colors I get with ProStandard profiles absolutely gorgeous. That is the case for Z7II, Z8 and Z9.
I also shoot Fuji GFX and vastly prefer the colors from the Z bodies compared to the GFX-100II.
Those concerned about the tiny impact of stacked sensors on IQ will be super disappointed by global shutter sensors because that impact on IQ is very real.
p.4 #4 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
Kasper6188 wrote:
There is a reason the top 5 camera sensors tested on dxo are all "old" (except the leica M11). Lack of on sensor PDAF and being non-stacked. Both of those features do add a plethora of capabilities that would be hard for most people to trade-off for marginal IQ improvements though. Glad we have choices!
The D850 and Z7II have nearly identical scores on DxOMark, within the margin of error.
p.4 #6 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
kurisuhoyin wrote:
Mirrorless cameras use on sensor pixels for focusing. Those pixels are not used to output images. Therefore, these AF pixels become “dead” pixels. The camera then “clone” the light that the effective pixels capture and replicate and fill the “dead” pixels. Hence, we do see slight image quality differences. Because modern sensors contain so many pixels, we are talking about millions, so the ones that used for af (probably in the 10s thousands) are insignificant enough for most people to notice any difference. A DSLR has a dedicated AF sensor so the image sensor is fully effective and dedicated for outputting images.
Edit: this is just one of the many reasons affecting IQ. As someone else has mentioned, a fast readout sensor also affects IQ to some degrees as well. ...Show more →
The biggest IQ difference is that MILCs rarely produce OOF AF-S images whereas even the best DSLRs have imperfect shot-to-shot AF precision.
p.4 #9 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
bernardl wrote:
I would personally never go back to DSLRs.. one difference is perhaps that I use Capture One. I find the colors I get with ProStandard profiles absolutely gorgeous. That is the case for Z7II, Z8 and Z9.
I also shoot Fuji GFX and vastly prefer the colors from the Z bodies compared to the GFX-100II.
Those concerned about the tiny impact of stacked sensors on IQ will be super disappointed by global shutter sensors because that impact on IQ is very real.
Cheers,
Bernard
For my work, all the features that the Z8 gives me and the D850 did not...... I know I will never go back either Bernard.
Still, glad I kept my D850. But I've not decided for what.
p.4 #10 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
Really depends. True that in term of absolute IQ, D850 is still up there with the very best FF has to offer.
However, with Z8/Z9, I achieved many more shots that I would not be able to get with D850.
I also just happen to think that Z mount lenses are excellent and in general better than F mount.
Some of my F mount lenses that I still have such as 58/1.4G also works better with mirrrorless body than DSLR in my experience. So for me, I only have Df and D2x (no idea what to do with this one) left in my cabinet. The rest are all mirrorless.
p.4 #11 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
I'm (temporarily) back from self-imposed Nikon forum exile to provide some background on this fascinating yet little-discussed topic. Here are some links that might add to the shared awareness of the issue:
"The Fuji X-T3 seems to have let the cat out of the bag by saying that 2 million pixels are dedicated to autofocus. That is over 7% of the sensor area! It isn't the end of the world, but that is quite substantial. And quite a lot of pixels for the camera to be guessing at."
From Bill Claff:
"For the Nikon Z 7 I have determined that (with the exception of some at the top and bottom) every 12th row is PDAF capable. (see this post)
My guess is that each AF point is 25 rows of 240 pixels or 6,000 pixels.
There are 29x17=493 AF points so the total AF pixels might be about 2,958,000
Remember, these are just (informed) guesses."
As a personal wish, I've always wanted a fully intact sensor for manual focus only use, with no autofocus pollution. More artifice prevailed, however, and once the resolution/DR wars were over and the bird/action crazes arose, AF became King. You shouldn't have to buy a Leica M, obviously.
p.4 #12 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
philip_pj wrote:
I'm (temporarily) back from self-imposed Nikon forum exile to provide some background on this fascinating yet little-discussed topic. Here are some links that might add to the shared awareness of the issue:
"The Fuji X-T3 seems to have let the cat out of the bag by saying that 2 million pixels are dedicated to autofocus. That is over 7% of the sensor area! It isn't the end of the world, but that is quite substantial. And quite a lot of pixels for the camera to be guessing at."
From Bill Claff:
"For the Nikon Z 7 I have determined that (with the exception of some at the top and bottom) every 12th row is PDAF capable. (see this post)
My guess is that each AF point is 25 rows of 240 pixels or 6,000 pixels.
There are 29x17=493 AF points so the total AF pixels might be about 2,958,000
Remember, these are just (informed) guesses."
As a personal wish, I've always wanted a fully intact sensor for manual focus only use, with no autofocus pollution. More artifice prevailed, however, and once the resolution/DR wars were over and the bird/action crazes arose, AF became King. You shouldn't have to buy a Leica M, obviously....Show more →
Nice to see you back in the Nikon forums Phillip. Your thoughtful and knowledgeable posts have always added value.
This has been my experience as well. AF and stacked sensor architecture each have an IQ cost associated with them. The M11 sensor has the best IQ in DR and detail of any 35mm FF format sensor I have ever experienced. The leica colors and files are also top, but of course this part is very subjective and personal. The quality of current generation Leica lenses especially the APO line take full advantage of this. However being MF only, the use cases are less broad than the best AF systems. As always there are compromises to be made.
My guess is that the Z7III will use a sensor very similar to the M11, and it will be the new IQ leader in the Nikon line of cameras.
p.4 #13 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
philip_pj wrote:
As a personal wish, I've always wanted a fully intact sensor for manual focus only use, with no autofocus pollution. More artifice prevailed, however, and once the resolution/DR wars were over and the bird/action crazes arose, AF became King. You shouldn't have to buy a Leica M, obviously.
There are other options, for example all the Panasonic S FF models prior to the S5 II. Of course those sensors underperform the "polluted" Z sensors Also the Fuji GFX 50R/50S.
p.4 #14 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
bernardl wrote:
I would personally never go back to DSLRs.. one difference is perhaps that I use Capture One. I find the colors I get with ProStandard profiles absolutely gorgeous. That is the case for Z7II, Z8 and Z9.
I also shoot Fuji GFX and vastly prefer the colors from the Z bodies compared to the GFX-100II.
Those concerned about the tiny impact of stacked sensors on IQ will be super disappointed by global shutter sensors because that impact on IQ is very real.
Cheers,
Bernard
that is of course the result of too early out of the box execution.
p.4 #15 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
what makes that sort of decision/opinion difficult is the originator tends to be a narrow band type of shooter. so many things in this world are so varied in the views of people. i had the D850 fine camera that it was/is but for me i had little problem moving it to someone who felt it was their personal better option. i am a somewhat wider band shooter. for me the Z9 serves me better overall.
p.4 #16 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
philip_pj wrote:
I'm (temporarily) back from self-imposed Nikon forum exile to provide some background on this fascinating yet little-discussed topic. Here are some links that might add to the shared awareness of the issue:
"The Fuji X-T3 seems to have let the cat out of the bag by saying that 2 million pixels are dedicated to autofocus. That is over 7% of the sensor area! It isn't the end of the world, but that is quite substantial. And quite a lot of pixels for the camera to be guessing at."
From Bill Claff:
"For the Nikon Z 7 I have determined that (with the exception of some at the top and bottom) every 12th row is PDAF capable. (see this post)
My guess is that each AF point is 25 rows of 240 pixels or 6,000 pixels.
There are 29x17=493 AF points so the total AF pixels might be about 2,958,000
Remember, these are just (informed) guesses."
As a personal wish, I've always wanted a fully intact sensor for manual focus only use, with no autofocus pollution. More artifice prevailed, however, and once the resolution/DR wars were over and the bird/action crazes arose, AF became King. You shouldn't have to buy a Leica M, obviously....Show more →
p.4 #17 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
I have shot extensively with both cameras for years. I just looked through my Flickr for both the Z9 and D850 and I'm like, "how's the Z9 a downgrade here?" Both render an excellent image when paired with good glass and lighting.
p.4 #19 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
JadedWriter wrote:
I have shot extensively with both cameras for years. I just looked through my Flickr for both the Z9 and D850 and I'm like, "how's the Z9 a downgrade here?" Both render an excellent image when paired with good glass and lighting.
That's because you aren't pixel peeping things no one would ever notice in the real world.
p.4 #20 · D850 still takes a better picture than z8/9, change my mind.
Also makes sense. I think after I take, edit and post a pic I don't even look at them more than like once a year RoamingScott wrote:
That's because you aren't pixel peeping things no one would ever notice in the real world.
