p.11 #2 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
swldstn wrote:
Fact. The new Nikon Z8 is $2500 less expensive than the Sony a1 and for many that savings is significant and allows them to buy a very nice lens or other key capability or buy their kids school lunch for a school year. Don’t judge. Thank you.
I don't think that anyone can credibly argue that the low Z8 price doesn't provide a huge competitive advantage in a straight price vs performance comparison with the Sony A1. It does, simple as that. The Z8 is an incredible bargain in a very high performance camera.
However, when comparing a whole system including lenses, and edge case capabilities it can be more complex. Things like if one needs 1/400 sync speed, or mechanical shutter, or 30 fps RAW, or native lens compatibility with dedicated video/TV cameras (this is actually a big one for many organizations), or some other of many things in their work, the Z9/8 is just out at any price. Each must decide what best fits their needs.
p.11 #3 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
I just hope that the A9III has a bit more resolution (30-35 MP) and a little better EVF (I'd be happy with the one from the A7RIVa) so I can replace my A7IV and get that sweet, sweet burst rate without needing to fork over $6.5k for an A1 or 3k for a used A9II with years old tech at this point.
p.11 #4 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
Any thoughts why this Z8 has to be so big and heavy compared to something like the A1?
What's in it that's not in the Sony? It doesn't have a mechanical shutter. I'm really liking this
Z8 but I'm also liking the Fuji GFX50sll same size and weight. I know 2 different uses.
Serious question, no flaming please.
p.11 #5 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
fotografur wrote:
Any thoughts why this Z8 has to be so big and heavy compared to something like the A1?
What's in it that's not in the Sony? It doesn't have a mechanical shutter. I'm really liking this
Z8 but I'm also liking the Fuji GFX50sll same size and weight. I know 2 different uses.
Serious question, no flaming please.
I'm not sure....Nikon designs the camera to be larger and fit in the hand better. Same way Canon designed R5 to be larger than A1 and fits in hand nicer. Maybe someone like Roger at Lensrentals has torn them apart to see where all the weight comes from??
What I find more intriguing is how Canon kept the weight of the R3 so much lower than the Z9. R3 still uses a 1DX type battery just as Z9 uses D5 type battery.
To date, I think R3 is the greatest body shape/weight/configurable body I've ever used. I hope Canon packages the R1 into the exact same body and doesn't feel they have to make R1 bigger and heavier to look "more pro".
p.11 #6 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
phidippusaudax wrote:
I just hope that the A9III has a bit more resolution (30-35 MP) and a little better EVF (I'd be happy with the one from the A7RIVa) so I can replace my A7IV and get that sweet, sweet burst rate without needing to fork over $6.5k for an A1 or 3k for a used A9II with years old tech at this point.
For sure....if A9III comes in somewhere in the 30s for MP and they give it a Pre-capture in RAW feature I'm buying one and may even sell the A1. If A9III comes in at 24MP again I'll probably just hold out till A1II.
May 12, 2023 at 02:15 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.11 #7 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
1bwana1 wrote:
I don't think that anyone can credibly argue that the low Z8 price doesn't provide a huge competitive advantage in a straight price vs performance comparison with the Sony A1. It does, simple as that. The Z8 is an incredible bargain in a very high performance camera.
However, when comparing a whole system including lenses, and edge case capabilities it can be more complex. Things like if one needs 1/400 sync speed, or mechanical shutter, or 30 fps RAW, or native lens compatibility with dedicated video/TV cameras (this is actually a big one for many organizations), or some other of many things in their work, the Z9 is just out at any price. Each must decide what best fits their needs. ...Show more →
good points in that post, but i'll diverge and say that a used sony a9 for $2k or less is still the best price vs. performance ratio on the stacked sensor market, in part because it's backed up with the e-mount lens lineup.
match it with the 200-600, and for $4k you can do things that can't be equaled on z-mount for that price... you get 20fps raw, like the z8/z9 have, since those aren't 30fps bodies, they aren't in the a1/r3 class of 30fps camera.
a9 has much better battery life than the inefficient nikon cameras, so you need fewer batteries:
a9: 650/480
z8: 340/330
it's also much smaller and lighter, the z8 is a porky brick, nikon lost it's small gear mojo when they abandoned the v1-series.
z-mount is a rudderless ship, with an unclear direction; z8 is a tacit admission by nikon that the z9 was far too big, it cost them a lot of lost sales because people don't want huge cameras these days.
nikon fanboy barney britton just wrote something to that effect on dpr, his mom was making fun of his giant z9, lol:
p.11 #8 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
osv2 wrote:
good points in that post, but i'll diverge and say that a used sony a9 for $2k or less is still the best price vs. performance ratio on the stacked sensor market, in part because it's backed up with the e-mount lens lineup.
match it with the 200-600, and for $4k you can do things that can't be equaled on z-mount for that price... you get 20fps raw, like the z8/z9 have, since those aren't 30fps bodies, they aren't in the a1/r3 class of 30fps camera.
a9 has much better battery life than the inefficient nikon cameras, so you need fewer batteries:
a9: 650/480
z8: 340/330
it's also much smaller and lighter, the z8 is a porky brick, nikon lost it's small gear mojo when they abandoned the v1-series.
z-mount is a rudderless ship, with an unclear direction; z8 is a tacit admission by nikon that the z9 was far too big, it cost them a lot of lost sales because people don't want huge cameras these days.
nikon fanboy barney britton just wrote something to that effect on dpr, his mom was making fun of his giant z9, lol:
p.11 #9 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
My dealer wan't happy when I told him I didn't want the Z8 he had on order for me. It sounds as though unlike previous Nikon product launches, supply will exceed demand for the Z8. There are already 22 pallets of Z8 bodies sitting in Mississauga... but no telephoto lenses in sight.
p.11 #11 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
hiepphotog wrote:
It's not about whether any of these camera brands invented VCMs, but the why and how they use these in their lenses. Are you familiar with the other motor technologies? If you are, you can explain to us why you think VCMs are going to be the dominant tech going forward. Sony leads the pack with the implementation of these motors in their mirrorless lenses, other brands are/were taking their time. Even within the use of VCMs, later Sony lenses use more of them in the later generations (need a different optical design to accomplish that) to achieve a much more responsive experience. I have seen people argued before that VCMs offer no advantage over stepper motors (just like groobie above).
The 'why and the how' is not something anyone except their own engineering team can comment on. Certainly marketing departments do make a lot of noise about "extreme dynamic" lens motors. I'm not defending the position that VCM's offer no advantage; sure they do! My point was there is nothing special at all about VCMs as a technology, as some are implying here. There are a lot of opinions and claims about performance, but no objectively verifiable data. Unless I've missed it, I have not seen performance data showing how Sony "leads the pack".
p.11 #12 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
Steve Spencer wrote:
Nope, EFCS needs high shutter speeds to affect bokeh. At 1/400 the bokeh is not going to be affected even at very wide apertures.
Let’s be clear for the mechanical shutter, with and without EFCS I am only concerned about frames per second and NOT shutter speed. For stacked sensors I am not concerned since they read so fast and generally rolling shutter is not a problem. So at $3999 I like that the Z8 is stacked sensor. I don’t like that the A7RV is at best 7 frames per second and not more like 12.
p.11 #13 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
NonDecaf wrote:
The 'why and the how' is not something anyone except their own engineering team can comment on. Certainly marketing departments do make a lot of noise about "extreme dynamic" lens motors. I'm not defending the position that VCM's offer no advantage; sure they do! My point was there is nothing special at all about VCMs as a technology, as some are implying here. There are a lot of opinions and claims about performance, but no objectively verifiable data. Unless I've missed it, I have not seen performance data showing how Sony "leads the pack".
so you agree that vcm is superior "sure they do!", but you can't understand how a company that puts vcm in all of their lenses "leads the pack"? that doesn't make sense.
the difference here is that nikon had vcm back in 2011 or earlier, but quit using it until just recently; now they are trumpeting it as being better than any other lens motor technology, but you can't have it unless you pay $10k+ for a lens!
May 12, 2023 at 03:29 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.11 #14 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
chez wrote:
Heck if you went the used market, you can pick up a A9 with 200-600 for less than $3,000.
that would be stellar bargain, that can't be duplicated with z-mount.
p.11 #15 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
1bwana1 wrote:
I don't think that anyone can credibly argue that the low Z8 price doesn't provide a huge competitive advantage in a straight price vs performance comparison with the Sony A1. It does, simple as that. The Z8 is an incredible bargain in a very high performance camera.
However, when comparing a whole system including lenses, and edge case capabilities it can be more complex. Things like if one needs 1/400 sync speed, or mechanical shutter, or 30 fps RAW, or native lens compatibility with dedicated video/TV cameras (this is actually a big one for many organizations), or some other of many things in their work, the Z9 is just out at any price. Each must decide what best fits their needs. ...Show more →
Agree when I compare gear I assume anyone’s history or legacy is not part of the discussion but the capability of the entire supporting products and their availability do mater. So don’t bring your legacy into the discussion except to say, I bought or use brand X because “reason 1, 2 or 3.”
May 12, 2023 at 03:34 PM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.11 #16 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
swldstn wrote:
Agree when I compare gear I assume anyone’s history or legacy is not part of the discussion but the capability of the entire supporting products and their availability do mater.
if availability mattered this entire thread would be invalid, because most of the lenses you listed are unavailable.
the 800pf/400tc/600f4 for instance are all backordered/OOS at b&h, with no delivery date listed, and last i heard it's been like that for a long time.
we are telling you what the real world is like with sony; for instance there is a much greater depth of both new and used milc gear that can't be matched by z-mount.
p.11 #17 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
molson wrote:
My dealer wan't happy when I told him I didn't want the Z8 he had on order for me. It sounds as though unlike previous Nikon product launches, supply will exceed demand for the Z8. There are already 22 pallets of Z8 bodies sitting in Mississauga... but no telephoto lenses in sight.
So is Joe discounting them already?....maybe I can pick one up for a steal
p.11 #18 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
arbitrage wrote:
I'm not sure....Nikon designs the camera to be larger and fit in the hand better. Same way Canon designed R5 to be larger than A1 and fits in hand nicer. Maybe someone like Roger at Lensrentals has torn them apart to see where all the weight comes from??
What I find more intriguing is how Canon kept the weight of the R3 so much lower than the Z9. R3 still uses a 1DX type battery just as Z9 uses D5 type battery.
To date, I think R3 is the greatest body shape/weight/configurable body I've ever used. I hope Canon packages the R1 into the exact same body and doesn't feel they have to make R1 bigger and heavier to look "more pro"....Show more →
Part of it might be that Nikon just doesn't have the same engineering ability to miniaturize and optimize electronics as much as Sony or Canon does. A couple of signs of this I see vs the A1:
1. CIPA rated Battery life is poorer on both the Z9 and Z8 compared to the Sony A1 with and without battery grip - a much smaller body. There shouldn't be any reason the Z8/Z9 draws significantly more power than the A1.
2. The single CF Express / SD Card slot on the Z8. If the camera is marketed towards pros, you wouldn't do this and find a way to squeeze two CF Express card slots in. Either they purposely did this to protect Z9 sales (not sure this is the case) or they ran out of space.
I do think there is a market for a more sizable camera but some of the design decisions point to lack of engineering prowess and/or some other priority - maybe weather sealing(?) that can't be easily explained by the size benefit argument alone.
p.11 #20 · The new Nikon Z8 vs the Sony A7RV and potential A9III
1-CIPA results with the Z9 didn't quite impress until i started using it. i purchased 2 additional batts for it when i got it back at the end of Dec 2021. the camera turned out to be a little more efficient then i or pretty much any body else expected. i have yet to use battery #3. i have filled a 150GB CFexp B using lossless compressed early on at a few bicycle races. that is 1.7K. now i use HE* which is a whole lot more (4K)
i have a feeling the Z8 may turn out to be a bit more efficient too.
i remember when the early generation A7's came out rather inefficient and they finally built a better battery.
the EN-EL 15C is got a little more capacity. we'll see what happens in the real world.
