fredmiranda.com

Moderated by: Fred Miranda

New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site

New Feature: SMS Notification alert

New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist

FM Forums | Nikon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1 2 3 … 13

15 … 22 23 end

Archive 2023 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

Lance B
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.14 #1 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

Jman13 wrote:
I'm not defending fanboyism, but you should know this thread was cross-posted to the Canon forum as well, so it's not like people from the Canon side sought out the thread by coming to the Nikon forum.

My initial comment was more of a generalisation, not specifically this thread which, as you say, was cross posted. We have some very knowledgeable, quite unbiased (or at least generally try to be), brand agnostic (it seems) and helpful cross contributors, like Geoff (arbitrage), Snapsy, Steve (1bwana1) and maybe a few others I have missed. Their comments are generally welcomed by most here. However, we do have those that my original post was aimed at.

May 21, 2023 at 05:51 PM

ruralmontanan
Offline
•
[X]

p.14 #2 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

arbitrage wrote:
Things I think you will miss about the R5 are the button customization and amount/position of the buttons.

I�m glad you bring this point up, specifically with the triple BBAF on the R5, which really has been a game changer for me. I find myself comparing all button layouts to that standard now and whether I can get the same setup or not. I have one set for spot, one for tracking specifically under my square for moving critters, and the third for general tracking of the whole screen for moving critters, which winds up being a great last second save for unexpected movement where the AF can find the critter faster than I can move to it. Works really well.

May 21, 2023 at 06:44 PM

ronno
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.14 #3 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

gdanmitchell wrote:
I think the brand we use matters barely or (more likely) not at all. I happen to use Brand A and Brand B, but my photography would be essentially exactly the same if I used Brands C, D, E, F, or whatever.

IQ is very similar indeed, BUT some cameras *focus* a lot better than others in different situations, and that is where the meaningful differences are these days IMO.
AUTOFOCUS MATTERS.

Cheers.

(as an aside I have read from at least 4 different accounts that the R5 focuses better than the Z8/Z9...)

May 21, 2023 at 08:47 PM

groob
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.14 #4 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

May 21, 2023 at 08:58 PM

1bwana1
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.14 #5 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

ronno wrote:
IQ is very similar indeed, BUT some cameras *focus* a lot better than others in different situations, and that is where the meaningful differences are these days IMO.
AUTOFOCUS MATTERS.

Cheers.

(as an aside I have read from at least 4 different accounts that the R5 focuses better than the Z8/Z9...)

Yes, Autofocus does matter. A great deal in fact. If one chooses to rely on a camera system's autofocus, he should select a system that he has confidence in, and has proven itself to him in his type of work. I have shot the Sony A1 extensively, and the Z9 (reasonable proxy for the Z8) enough to form an opinion on each systems AF amid other attributes. Looking at the work on your website (beautiful by the way) , I don't think there is an image on your site where the Z8/9, the A1, the R5 or a number of other systems, would be challenge to keep up AF wise. The areas where AF differences do exists are in more extreme AF use cases.

Because of this, I think the important difference are more about personal preference items about each camera system. That is where I would recommend you focus your attention in picking the system most suitable for you and your work. I am guessing you have found the best system for you in the Canon R5. You may be surprised the support you get in this forum, and this cross posted thread specifically regarding your preferences.

Edit: I think it is appropriate to be a bit narcistic in choosing your prefered system. After all, that choice is actually all about you in the end. The important thing is to keep the choice in the context of "you".

May 21, 2023 at 09:23 PM

Pixel Perfect
Online
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.14 #6 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

exdeejjjaaaa wrote:
"global shutters" stop exposure at once (or almost at once) , and then the readout goes line by line just like in a regular sensor ( faster is a GS sensor is stacked ) ... it is the ability to stop exposure at once what eliminates the rolling shutter (because GS sensors can either prevent further charge accumulation in situ or /more often/ move charge in a dedicated capacitor near each sensel - that is why they suffer either or both less DR / less MP ... because that charge storage near each sensel so far hinders the regular sensels)

Those issues have been solved it would appear. Sony, Canon and Pansonic have all patented methods that overcome the DR issue and pixel counts are rising. Still with the latest stacked sensors only suffering a minute DR penalty and now at 50MP, with scan speeds closing in rapidly on mechanical shutters their has been no urgent need for global shutter in consumer market. I would expect GS to be very expensive for many years to come if we get to see one. If Canon's R1 is GS as early rumors said, I would expect a price much less than $8K. I somehow doubt it though.

I'm wondering what the limit of scan speed is for stacked sensor. Clocking ADC's much higher causes issues itself for read noise and I guess we need faster pipe between sensor and the DRAM layer. Current state-of-the-art is 1/270s, will Sony be able to surpass 1/300s in the A1 II. GS would be awesome for flash though, x-sync at any shutter speed would be amazing.

May 22, 2023 at 06:57 AM

Pixel Perfect
Online
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.14 #7 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

cohenfive wrote:
And if canon releases an r5ii without a stacked sensor, imo it will fare very badly in the market. That tech is where things are heading.

Tell that to Sony. A7RV is doing well for them and it's sensor is glacial up to 4x slower than the R5's making it's ES utterly useless for any sort of action work.I'm frankly gobsmacked they didn't give a shit about improving scan speed on the A7IV let alone A7RV.

Maybe it's possible to push regular scan speed a bit faster, R5 is ~1/60s, if they could get to 1/100s and bring down EVF blackout significantly, that would be a decent compromise. But they'll still ask the same money as Nikon's Z8. They have backed themselves into a corner with the R3's pricing. An R5II with stacked sensor and 45MP+ and sub $4K price kills the R3 market for most people IMO.

May 22, 2023 at 07:22 AM

patotts
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.14 #8 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

I think the success of the Sony A7R5 proves that many people don't care about stacked sensor and sensor read speeds for their shooting envelope. Heck, the A7R5 full raw shooting speed in mechanical shutter is something like 6-7 fps, and that probably drops with a half-empty battery. But if you are shooting landscape, architecture, family and travel, you don't really need a stacked sensor and rather pay for better dynamic range, more MPs, focusing stack, etc.

The point is - there is a trade-off in everything, and there is no camera that will do it all. And I don't think it is in the interest of the camera manufacturers to make a "perfect camera". Today's mass market is much smaller as people think smart phones are good enough (point and shoot market is dead), so manufacturers increasingly focus on higher and higher end (as we can see from the ever increasing prices of bodies and lenses). I mean, if a Nikon Z8, or Canon R5 Mk II, or Sony A9 Mk III would have 45 mp stacked sensor, 9mdot EVF, 20-30 fps ES without blackout, double CFexpress B slots, new gen high capacity battery, effective head management, Sony A7R5 style flippy screen, nice ergonomics - all at a MSRP below $4,000 (with street/used price closer to $3,000) then brands wouldn't be able to get us to upgrade bodies every 12-24 months. Nor would pros and well-heeled amateurs pay $6-8K for a pro-level body. And packing all that tech into a single body would increase costs and erode their profit margins.

I think Nikon Z8 is as good as we can expect. Sure, they could have further improved the AF 18 months after the Z9 release, they could have used a better EVF, a fully articulated back-screen, a new higher capacity battery, etc but it would erode marigns and probably upset Z9 users as well. But then again, the Z8 is likely more camera than 95% of us here would ever need...

Rant off. Regardless, I'm looking forward to get to try the Z8 hands-on this evening at District Camera's Nikon event in Arlington, VA. It might be the one camera that makes me buy Nikon again...

Edit: just found this video - we all like to create our dream camera by taking the best-of-breed

&ab_channel=DuadePaton

Edited on May 22, 2023 at 08:24 AM · View previous versions

May 22, 2023 at 07:48 AM

duncang
Offline
• • •
[X]

p.14 #9 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

ArizonaImage wrote:
Dang, a generation behind? Yet, almost every review shows the Z9 edging out the competition in AF.. but lets get serious here. Clearly you're nothing but a troll, so grab your barbie polaroid and go play house.

Just pointing out the facts - my A1 isn't going to improve much beyond where it is currently without a hardware upgrade either.

Almost every review shows the Z9 edging out the competion in AF !!

May 22, 2023 at 08:21 AM

duncang
Offline
• • •
[X]

p.14 #10 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

Lance B wrote:
The ultimate proof of insecurity are those that need to go another brand's forum in order to try to preach to the heretics and to try to validate to themselves their choice in camera system. I have never felt the need to do so.

And there are those that are so arrogant they think the thread is exclusive to their brands forum.

There is no requirement to post only ravingly positive comments on these forums - people are quire entitled to comment on what they believe are the shortcomings - and others are quite entitled to disagree.

May 22, 2023 at 08:31 AM

snapsy
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.14 #11 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

Canon and Sony were able to achieve better AF performance than Nikon for non-stacked sensors. I think that's a function of Nikon's late entry into the market and thus less mature MILC AF tech and experience. Nikon's use of stacked sensors closed that gap with brute sensor readout performance. It'll be interesting to see how Canon and Sony responds and when they'll bring a stacked sensor into the prosumer space and at what prices.

May 22, 2023 at 09:01 AM

dcisive
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.14 #12 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

It is strange how each camera has some plus and some minus. I had a R5 Canon for quite a while and did enjoy it, but wanted to try out some others. I currently use a A7R5. I have to admit it's focus capabilities have been impressive. I can easily nail flying birds or anything that moves for that matter perfectly in focus each and every time. I don't even bother with multi frame shooting so frame speed hasn't meant much to me. The resolution is of course outstanding as expected. Love the plethora of programmed buttons as it saves me from ever bothering to enter the menus.

That said I was a Nikonian for over 12 years with multiple Nikon bodies, all of which I loved (especially the glass) so have been watching to see just how the Z8 ends up stacking up in all regard. While the Sony may have some small edges on it, such as dynamic range, resolution or color depth (if you trust DXO) I am enticed by the idea of a shutter that will never wear out per se. I'm going to remain on the fence watching people who get one in their hands and see what real world results they are getting, not just the Youtube influencers.

May 22, 2023 at 09:53 AM

gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.14 #13 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

ronno wrote:
IQ is very similar indeed, BUT some cameras *focus* a lot better than others in different situations, and that is where the meaningful differences are these days IMO.
AUTOFOCUS MATTERS.

Cheers.

(as an aside I have read from at least 4 different accounts that the R5 focuses better than the Z8/Z9...)

No one said anything like "AF doesn't matter."

My point is that the differences among things (like the excellent AF of all these brands) don't amount to that much. In addition, the "lead" switches back and forth every time a new model comes out... and the subjective biases based on brand team loyalty overstated differences and often ignore them.

The least important photographic question is typically, "Which brand is best?". And obsessing about these things is less about their photographic impact � which often ranges between insignificant and nonexistent � and folks reassuring themselves that they aren't wasting their money.

If each of these differences was actually that earth-shaking, those of us who have been watching photography gear evolve for some decades and reading the overheated marketing and reviews of each new development during that period would expect that photography would have improved by many orders of magnitude as all of those "revolutionary" advances added up.

That hasn't happened. Photography has improved incrementally, but has not fundamentally changed. Those individuals differences between thing 1 and thing 2 amount to far, far less than we imagine.

Or perhaps you don't agree, and you think hat photography is orders of magnitude better. 100x? 1000x? If so, then the incremental differences between contemporary product A and contemporary product B seem even more trivial.

It is fine and useful to understand technical stuff about photography and camera gear. It is a waste of time and a distraction to turn that into the point of it all.

Edited on May 22, 2023 at 02:26 PM · View previous versions

May 22, 2023 at 10:03 AM

cohenfive
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.14 #14 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

Pixel Perfect wrote:
Tell that to Sony. A7RV is doing well for them and it's sensor is glacial up to 4x slower than the R5's making it's ES utterly useless for any sort of action work.I'm frankly gobsmacked they didn't give a shit about improving scan speed on the A7IV let alone A7RV.

Maybe it's possible to push regular scan speed a bit faster, R5 is ~1/60s, if they could get to 1/100s and bring down EVF blackout significantly, that would be a decent compromise. But they'll still ask the same money as Nikon's Z8. They have backed themselves into a corner with...Show more →

My point is that what made the R5 so successful was that it was the 'best' all around prosumer camera in the market, save for the A1 which came at a very different price point. That mantle will now pass to to the Z8, at least for the moment. Sony has the A1 which is excellent at everything, just more expensive...but the same price as the R3 which is a problem for Canon. The market is speaking loudly that the R3 at list price is way overpriced. You can see that here, where mint R3/A1/Z9 are all pushing down towards the $4k price point where the Z8 already lives. The R5 is down below $3k....So Canon will have to lower the R3 price significantly or it will become less relevent. The Z8 specs are brilliant imo...just about perfect for a prosumer all around camera, and leaving just a bit of headroom for the Z9 with some better specs (build, grip, 30fps and battery life) for some to justify paying more.

If the R5ii does not have a stacked sensor, imo it will need to be priced well below the Z8 to succeed, but Canon will still need to put a faster sensor in it at some point.

May 22, 2023 at 10:28 AM

ronno
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.14 #15 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

This thread now reminding me of one of the lower quality ones on DPR back in the day...
Plenty of unnecessary insults etc.

Cheers.

May 22, 2023 at 11:55 AM

gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.14 #16 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

ronno wrote:
This thread now reminding me of one of the lower quality ones on DPR back in the day...
Plenty of unnecessary insults etc.

Cheers.

Despite reassuring ourselves that FM is never like those other guys, we have our share of bad-mannered participants, too, who can't resist an opportunity for ad hominem.

May 22, 2023 at 02:23 PM

snapsy
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.14 #17 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

ronno wrote:
This thread now reminding me of one of the lower quality ones on DPR back in the day...
Plenty of unnecessary insults etc.

Cheers.

Dpreview went through a rough patch some years ago. The moderation was very light and you had to be really onerous to receive a ban. Some still managed to get banned though, sometimes temporarily and rarely, permanently. They've since added multiple moderators per forum and they do a great job keeping a lid on the threads and stopping them from running off the rails.

May 22, 2023 at 03:12 PM

Lance B
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.14 #18 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

duncang wrote:
And there are those that are so arrogant they think the thread is exclusive to their brands forum.

There is no requirement to post only ravingly positive comments on these forums - people are quire entitled to comment on what they believe are the shortcomings - and others are quite entitled to disagree.

. Oh no, not the "ravingly positive comments" accustaion! Oh the humanity! But then, you must have a guilty conscience as I never mentioned any names.

May 22, 2023 at 05:49 PM

ronno
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.14 #19 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

1bwana1 wrote:
Yes, Autofocus does matter. A great deal in fact. If one chooses to rely on a camera system's autofocus, he should select a system that he has confidence in, and has proven itself to him in his type of work. I have shot the Sony A1 extensively, and the Z9 (reasonable proxy for the Z8) enough to form an opinion on each systems AF amid other attributes. Looking at the work on your website (beautiful by the way) , I don't think there is an image on your site where the Z8/9, the A1, the R5 or a number of...Show more →

Thanks for the compliment!

I have extensively used 5DIV, A7r4, R5, Z7II, Z6 etc etc...the only ones which significantly struggled with AF are the Nikons which had a tendency to latch onto the background (effectively not "seeing" a front and center subject.) This has been documented by many photographers other than myself. A good friend of mine struggles with low light AF on his Z9 (which he otherwise loves.)

That's my 2 cents as to seemingly simply situations (tabletop, fashion, food, travel...) leading some modern mirrorless cameras to misfocus.
So, in my experience, it is not an issue of, "they're all as good as each other at this point" as someone here implied.
Not in my experience.
I have no use for an image with great D.R., no rolling shutter etc etc which is also out of focus.

And obviously to each his own� I am not too concerned what any of y'all are shooting with ;-).

IMO what matters is the results. The image. I don't care how you get there.

P.S. 1bwana1 - a not insignificant number of images on my site are iPhone pictures.

Cheers.

May 22, 2023 at 07:21 PM

Pixel Perfect
Online
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.14 #20 · Z8 vs R5? I'm just curious...

cohenfive wrote:
My point is that what made the R5 so successful was that it was the 'best' all around prosumer camera in the market, save for the A1 which came at a very different price point. That mantle will now pass to to the Z8, at least for the moment. Sony has the A1 which is excellent at everything, just more expensive...but the same price as the R3 which is a problem for Canon. The market is speaking loudly that the R3 at list price is way overpriced. You can see that here, where mint R3/A1/Z9 are all pushing down towards...Show more →

And my point is Sony could have done the same thing with the A7RV, but decided to keep the sensor crippled. It seems by all accounts the A7RV with a decent sensor would have been even better than the A1 and Sony it seems is like Canon and could not possibly allow that. Nikon has shown even before the Z8 they can release cameras with near flagship performance at much cheaper prices with the D500 still being about the best damn valued camera ever IMO for 1/3rd the D5 pricer and 90% the performance.

As for your prices, come to Australia, there is none of that heavy discounting even in the second hand market. I can't find a second hand R5 under $4500, A1 are still $6.8K+, and haven't seen a single R3 or Z9 second hand.

The new prices for the R3 have eased from $8.9K down to the lower $7K area, Z9 is still $7999-8999, A1 is stuck in the $8.2-8.9K range, R5 is still $5.2-5.9K, yet A7RV is already easy to find far cheaper than R5. Sony pricing in Australia is massively better than Canon and Nikon in general especially lenses and they run better and deeper sales. But that doesn't apply to A1 or A9II. As for lenses Canon Australia has priced themselves out of the market with ludicrous prices on RF and the main reason I sold all my Canon gear. You need to be very rich to buy into the Canon system nowadays. Nikon is only a little better but have a much better array of superteles that are actually good value in Australia unlike their holy trinity for example. Again Sony lens prices are usually much cheaper on sale. Often Sony AU prices a re far better than Sony US prices taking into account currency and tax. This is why I have a foot in both Sony and Nikon camps. It would also cost far to much to convert to Nikon solely, so I pick and choose. Nikon excels for us birders and wildlife shooters, Sony is much better value under 300mm. As for Canon there is not one lens they make above 200mm I have any interest in even if prices weren't ridiculous.

May 22, 2023 at 08:53 PM

1 2 3 … 13 14 15 … 22 23 end
FM Forums \| Nikon Forum \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 3 … 13 14 15 … 22 23 end