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Leica M11 reliability

1bwana1
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Leica M11 reliability

One of the software companies I owned was hired to build a QA system for a large flat screen TV manufacturer. One of the things it did was implement a QA algorithm they used to maximize quality at the most efficient cost.

The way it worked was to start off by doing a QA inspection on every unit. When a certain number of units passed they would inspect less units, and run the line at a faster rate. This went on until they were inspecting only one of several hundred units. The assembly line would flow at this maximum rate until one of the inspected units failed QA. Then the whole line would be put back to the starting inspection and speed rates, and the cycle would continue.

Obviously by design, this system would allow a certain number of bad units through. But in a premium product like a Leica where they theoretically inspect every unit all of the time, and an employee signs a card attesting that he inspected the product and it was perfect, there should be no bad products shipped. That is what we are paying the price premium for. In the case of Leica we are not buying performance, we are paying for a better built product, which is made with higher quality materials, and more precision. That should result in fewer problems both at delivery, and throughout an extended life span of the product. Just as important, we should be getting extraordinary service when a very rare problem does occur.

I'm am not sure we are currently receiving those premium items we are being charged for. Leica needs to pay attention to this.

May 15, 2023 at 12:22 PM

rscheffler
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Leica M11 reliability

1bwana1 wrote:
Just as important, we should be getting extraordinary service when a very rare problem does occur.

I agree that Leica's repair service is somewhat of a disappointment. From my experience, they have mostly fixed things the first time around, but not always. Most recently I have had a couple lenses that have had problems reoccur 6 months to 1-2 years later. But my biggest complaint is repair turnaround time. Also, given they have not had a Canadian presence for a very long time and it's necessary to ship repairs to the US, they could make the shipping process a much smoother experience. For example, by offering prepaid, flat-rate, red-tape-free (i.e. customs clearance) shipping to NJ that could then be added to out of warranty repairs at said flat rate.

johnvanr wrote:
And then there’s the Zeiss employee who told me that he and Ming Thein visited Zeiss HQ and asked all these technical questions that were extremely detailed, but in reality have little impact on whether an image is strong or not.

That's fine if you're promoting your product as one that creates strong (artistic) images. But Zeiss and Leica to some degree promote their technical expertise and the resulting high technical performance of their respective products. It's IMO not valid to then turnaround and say it's of little relevance because some of your customers will specifically be very interested in said technical performance. Lloyd has also always been extremely focused on technical performance, so it really shouldn't come as a surprise that his questions would be on the very technical side. Not sure if he and Zeiss still have a partnership of sorts, but whoever was at Zeiss at that time would certainly have known this.

May 15, 2023 at 01:37 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Leica M11 reliability

rscheffler wrote:
...But my biggest complaint is repair turnaround time....

Service time is also my primary concern when dealing with Leica, but I have consistently received flawless bodies and M/SL lenses upon their return.

May 15, 2023 at 10:30 PM

carlosmcse
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Leica M11 reliability

I have an M10R BP. Never touched the M11 for various reasons but I’ve been reading on it a lot.

I have a suspicion it may have something to do with faulty sensors in the mount. The sensor that detects the lenses. I’ve seen a few M11 that were basically corroded inside the mount just for a bit of moisture.

iMO it’s a hardware problem with some M11s. A lot of them apparently.

May 18, 2023 at 11:54 AM

flash
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Leica M11 reliability

Likely not a lot of them. Just a loud minority. Most happy M11 users don’t frequent forums. Most unhappy ones will. It’s our nature to jump on the web when we see a problem.

I have zero doubt that there are some faulty M11’s out there. But I do doubt it’s a lot.

Gordon

May 18, 2023 at 06:28 PM

highdesertmesa
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Leica M11 reliability

May 18, 2023 at 08:03 PM

RustyRus
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Leica M11 reliability

May 18, 2023 at 08:12 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Leica M11 reliability

highdesertmesa wrote:
I had four defective M11s out of four. One with a misaligned rangefinder, three that would occasionally freeze on startup (occasionally enough to be frustrating and give concern it would lead to being bricked).

So for me the faulty rate was pretty high.

After experiencing issues with three Leica M11 cameras, I opted to stick with the M10-R for now. I don't have the time or desire to serve as a beta tester for Leica. If they address the problems with the M11-P in the future, I might reconsider it. I was hoping the issue could be resolved through software alone.

Although Leica hasn't officially acknowledged the problem, it seems they are actively engaged in finding a solution. However, it appears to be a complex undertaking. I hope Leica takes their time before releasing another version of the M11.

May 18, 2023 at 08:54 PM

highdesertmesa
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · Leica M11 reliability

RustyRus wrote:
You also just bought another lens and sent it back to Leica immediately after praising it. So not saying you didn't have that, but your failure rate for all things seems rather high.

Again not trying to sound rude with this comment.

I will admit I am demanding for products in this price range.

Regarding the Steel Rim reissue, it is indeed a wonderful lens. And if mine hadn't have had stiff focusing, I would have kept it most likely. Same with the M11. Why else would I have tried so many times to get a good one? The first one with the rangefinder alignment issue was a simple exchange. The other three, I sold it each time to MPB. Each time I lost between $2.5K and $3.5K on the sale versus what I paid new. I don't blame Leica for that – I could have done the whole wait 6 months thing each time while that money could have been invested for 6 months in something else. I really wanted to have gotten a usable M11.

May 18, 2023 at 09:26 PM

ArchnemeSwiss
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · Leica M11 reliability

flash wrote:
Likely not a lot of them. Just a loud minority. Most happy M11 users don’t frequent forums. Most unhappy ones will. It’s our nature to jump on the web when we see a problem.

I have zero doubt that there are some faulty M11’s out there. But I do doubt it’s a lot.

Gordon

When Leica charges what they do, they should be better about quality control. It’s not just the M11. The new 35 Lux had issues that stopped them from production for months. Other Leica forums have multiple examples of users with troubling issues that Leica has seemed baffled and unable to fix, not just at New Jersey (which is known to be garbage for repairs). One user from Namibia reported a truly horrible experience with Leica (in Wetzlar) unable to get his M11 working properly despite multiple long repair times. It was both a sensor issue and a rangefinder issue for him.

Whether their engineering validation is insufficient or their QC teams have fallen off badly, something is clearly wrong with multiple recent products from Leica. It’s enough that buyers should be cautious, IMO.

May 18, 2023 at 09:49 PM

Desmolicious
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · Leica M11 reliability

flash wrote:
Likely not a lot of them. Just a loud minority. Most happy M11 users don’t frequent forums. Most unhappy ones will. It’s our nature to jump on the web when we see a problem.

I have zero doubt that there are some faulty M11’s out there. But I do doubt it’s a lot.

Gordon

When the two trusted posters beneath your comment between them had seven defective M11s, I don’t think it is a loud minority. It’s a big problem.

It reminds me of my film scratching new M6. The more I asked, the more I found others had the same issue. And one very famous Leica tester showed his results to prove his M6 was fine, but did not actually look at them closely. His scratched film way worse than the others, but it was a blessing in disguise as it changed the minds of those who thought it was just one or two squeaky wheels complaining.

And then we have that limited edition titanium M-A that was sold with a titanium 50 Apo last year. A whole bunch of those have the finish pealing off and Leica has stayed completely silent about that. They have not assisted any of the affected customers - and those cameras were $20,000.

May 19, 2023 at 12:55 AM

panos.v
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · Leica M11 reliability

Desmolicious wrote:
And one very famous Leica tester showed his results to prove his M6 was fine, but did not actually look at them closely. His scratched film way worse than the others, but it was a blessing in disguise as it changed the minds of those who thought it was just one or two squeaky wheels complaining.

But but but but the lab scratched those...or was it him that did something...or was it the dog...I can't remember. Not the camera though.

May 19, 2023 at 02:58 AM

carlosmcse
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · Leica M11 reliability

@flash@@@
Based on what I’ve seen so far it definitely is NOT just a few bad apples. It’s bad enough for Leica to release a firmware fix for it that solved some but not others.

Hugh Brownstone was dreaming about an M. Held out on the M10R. He finally pulled the trigger on the M11. Less than 1,000 frames he got the dreaded Red Light of Death. Or orange. However you see that color. I call it OLOD (orange light of death issue). There were several M11’s with this problem.

Most issues are random lockups that require a battery pull out. The other issue I see is the shutter. It gets stuck and can’t take a picture. It starts by people saying they turn it on and hear a double flap from the shutter instead of one.

There’s a guy on YouTube that is on his 5th M11. And he had hardcore hardware problems and also freezing. The last one (4th) the shutter just seized. Lasted about 2 months.

I don’t know but IMO everything M10R and previous is what I would put my money on if I was buying a new digital Leica. Lenses included.

IMO these are the Leicas I would buy.

Digital: Any M10 family. But mainly either a P or an R.

Film: Old M6, M3, M2, M4.

If you’re a 50mm shooter an M3 in great condition I mean. It really doesn’t get any better than that.

I’m staying away from anything Leica post pandemic for the time being. Bodies or lenses.

Well. My M10R Black Paint is the last camera body I’ll ever buy. That’s more than I will ever need.

May 19, 2023 at 05:21 AM

crf59
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · Leica M11 reliability

I think perhaps people are overreacting to the lockup issue. I have or have had every digital M made and have had one lockup on one body and it wasn't an M11. I do have the latest firmware on my M11, and it has not locked up at all (yet). If it's a software issue, it can be fixed. My bigger concern would be if it's a hardware issue, but I can't see that.

Nothing wrong with Leica any more than there is with Nikon, Canon, etc. The sky is not falling. Their sales are strong (for their niche in the market), their R&D arms is spending money, and they will sort out any hanging chad with their firmware. The M11 is a fantastic camera in its niche. Wonderful sensor, great build, great lenses.

May 20, 2023 at 05:30 AM

flash
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · Leica M11 reliability

crf59 wrote:
I think perhaps people are overreacting to the lockup issue. I have or have had every digital M made and have had one lockup on one body and it wasn't an M11. I do have the latest firmware on my M11, and it has not locked up at all (yet). If it's a software issue, it can be fixed. My bigger concern would be if it's a hardware issue, but I can't see that.

Nothing wrong with Leica any more than there is with Nikon, Canon, etc. The sky is not falling. Their sales are strong (for their niche in...Show more →

I’ve had two lockups with my M11. One early that was related to the shot delay bug. Fixed by setting playback to on hold. Second one was while in playback I was pushing buttons too quickly and the poor dear god confused.

I don’t consider it an issue either but some (I still think it’s a smallish number compared to the number of camera sold) are having significant problems. As far as the lockups, I think they’re mostly but not completely sorted.

For the record my M11, M10R, M10M and M11M are the only M’s that have not needed RF adjustment within a day or so of arriving. At least with the M240, M-P and two M10’s I could do it myself in a minute or two. Also my earlier M lenses had some calibration issues but I’ve had great luck over the last three years.

Gordon

May 20, 2023 at 05:42 AM

crf59
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · Leica M11 reliability

Yep Gordon, I have had an occasional rangefinder issue as well - but that's what you live with using mechanical rangefinders. Interestingly enough, I had more issues with RF adjustment on my MP than any of my digital bodies. Not sure why that would be the case. I love the M11 though - definite keeper for me and that's saying a lot since I change cameras like baby diapers....

May 20, 2023 at 05:51 AM

carlosmcse
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · Leica M11 reliability

@crf59

It’s not an overreaction when it happens 3+ times a day every day even after the firmware update.

But the complaints don’t stop at freezing.

May 20, 2023 at 08:10 AM

StanOPhoto
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · Leica M11 reliability

Is anyone still having lockup issues on M11 after the FW 1.6.1 update?

I have experienced a lot of lock-ups when the camera wakes from sleep, requiring the battery to be popped out and reinserted for it to start working. Occasionally it happens while writing to the card, losing whatever images are in the buffer.

Jul 19, 2023 at 06:14 PM

1bwana1
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · Leica M11 reliability

I thought I had my first lockup this past weekend. Camera was completely dead. No switch or button could wake it. Even removing the battery and reinserting it didn't help. Then I discovered I had run the battery to completely empty. DUH!

So far, never an issue with my M11 and I have shot it daily since I bought it. I love my M11.

Jul 19, 2023 at 07:20 PM

hmzimelka
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · Leica M11 reliability

My current M11 (February 2022 Build) has been mostly problem free since the latest firmware 1.6.1. I've had two freezes that needed a battery pull.

However, I find it rather astounding how Leica is dealing with the issues it's had over the past couple years. As if it's flirting the line of denial and responsibility at first, and then when it actually becomes actionable the progress is slow and un-prioritised. I understand it's a relatively small company, but they are selling very premium products and for the most part customer expectations should be high. The freeze issues are very real, even if my camera is almost perfectly free of it. I know of and heard of far too many people that are on their third, fourth and even fifth M11! This is absurd. I'm on my third M11.

In the last 22 years of my photography, I've not had as many issues with any brand or product collectively compared to those I've had with Leica in the last two years alone. Ignoring my first attempt into the M system in 2013 with the original MM, which failed badly after four faulty cameras.

My personal resilience to carry on with Leica M is wearing very thin. If it were a rational choice, I would have ditched the system long ago. For Leica's sake, I hope things get better.

Jul 20, 2023 at 12:48 AM

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