p.2 #2 · It's official: Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f/1.0 in Z mount
The Nikon Rumors text (DX) is incorrect, it's a Full Frame/FX lens.
Ok, in the Specifications under Corresponding sensor size, Cosina calls it Full flame.
p.2 #3 · It's official: Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f/1.0 in Z mount
Steve Spencer wrote:
One other quick question. I assume the lens focusses in the Nikon/Pentax direction and not the Canon/Leica direction. Is that accurate.
I think we can safely say yes to that, considering how the distance scale looks.
p.2 #4 · It's official: Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f/1.0 in Z mount
bggary wrote:
Am I reading correctly that it's a DX lens (not full-frame)?
(the photo shows it on a Z7ii...which made me wonder if I'm reading that correctly)
No-no-no! This is a full-frame lens:
"The NOKTON 50mm F1 Aspherical is an ultra-fast standard lens for full-frame (Nikon FX format) mirrorless cameras with the Nikon Z mount. It is the fastest standard lens from Voigtländer for full-frame cameras ..."
p.2 #6 · It's official: Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f/1.0 in Z mount
Steve Spencer wrote:
As I understand it, it is possible to correct for the thicker sensor glass by subtle changes to the lens elements and their spacing that wouldn't show up on the lens diagrams. I could be wrong, however.
We were referring to the outward bending field curvature of the VM 50/1 on Leica sensors.
Jan 17, 2023 at 04:18 PM
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p.2 #7 · It's official: Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f/1.0 in Z mount
_Gundam_ wrote:
For a 2000 euro mf lens i do expect to see mtf.
You might expect that, but CV has never done that. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to do it.
Jan 17, 2023 at 04:31 PM
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p.2 #8 · It's official: Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f/1.0 in Z mount
Ripolini wrote:
We were referring to the outward bending field curvature of the VM 50/1 on Leica sensors.
That outward bending field curvature from the tests I have seen looks worse on Sony cameras. That worse look on Sony cameras is I believe astigmatism (i.e., more outward field curvature in one orientation--tangential vs. saggital) and if they don't correct for the thicker cover glass of the Nikon would make the lens on Nikon look worse. I expect they can at least compensate for the astigmatism and maybe do something about the outward bending field curvature, but I doubt it. I would expect the Nikon Z lens to perform on Nikon Z much like the Leica M lens performs on Leica M, but that isn't a sure thing. We will have to wait until people get the lens and compare it side by side on Nikon Z with the Leica lens on Leica M.
The demonstrate how hard it is to focus such a lens at f1.0. Same issue with the Noct I own. Possible but hard. Here it's not even close in some of the images.
I am wondering what is causing the vertical lines in some of the bokeh balls though.
p.2 #10 · It's official: Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f/1.0 in Z mount
Ripolini wrote:
It's better to not show MTF plots of "character" lenses
Why, because it will deteriorate too much towards the edges? In addition to MTF, astigmatism and LoCA would be of interest to me. Given that it is a low cost f/1 lens, something might have to give.
p.2 #11 · It's official: Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f/1.0 in Z mount
From the tests Fred Miranda did, the outward field curvature gets progressively more pronounced at shorter focus distances. Imagine how that would look if continued from 90cm to 45cm. I hope the lens designers reduced this behavior (which obviously is caused by the floating lens element) in the Z mount version.
Steve Spencer wrote:
That outward bending field curvature from the tests I have seen looks worse on Sony cameras. That worse look on Sony cameras is I believe astigmatism (i.e., more outward field curvature in one orientation--tangential vs. saggital) and if they don't correct for the thicker cover glass of the Nikon would make the lens on Nikon look worse. I expect they can at least compensate for the astigmatism and maybe do something about the outward bending field curvature, but I doubt it. I would expect the Nikon Z lens to perform on Nikon Z much like the Leica M lens performs on Leica M, but that isn't a sure thing. We will have to wait until people get the lens and compare it side by side on Nikon Z with the Leica lens on Leica M....Show more →
p.2 #12 · It's official: Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f/1.0 in Z mount
The M mount version is actually quite sharp at the edge of (Leica M) full frame sensors. At least some sample images I have seen shows a drop in sharpness in the mid-frame at longer focus distances, though. On the other hand, Fred Miranda posted a picture with focus at infinity which had good sharpness in the mid-frame too. Perhaps there may be some sample variation, or perhaps the issue is at a certain medium to long focus distance.
EB-1 wrote:
Why, because it will deteriorate too much towards the edges? In addition to MTF, astigmatism and LoCA would be of interest to me. Given that it is a low cost f/1 lens, something might have to give.
EBH
Jan 17, 2023 at 06:39 PM
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p.2 #13 · It's official: Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f/1.0 in Z mount
LarsHP wrote:
From the tests Fred Miranda did, the outward field curvature gets progressively more pronounced at shorter focus distances. Imagine how that would look if continued from 90cm to 45cm. I hope the lens designers reduced this behavior (which obviously is caused by the floating lens element) in the Z mount version.
I am not at all sure that would be caused by the floating element, but one problem in a lens with floating elements when adapting is that some such lenses are quite sensitive to adapters not being the exact right thickness. It certainly may be that this lens has those adapting issues. That shouldn't be an issue on a Z mount lens. It might be the lens design interacting with the thicker cover glass as well. Cover glass issues are always much worse with faster lenses and you are asking for cover glass issues when you adapt an f/1 lens. There will be issues even in the center and much worse performance at the edges. Either way, if the CV lens designer do their job right, those issues should not be there on the Z mount version, but I doubt we can expect better performance than on Leica M either. We will of course have to wait until the lens comes out and is tested before we really know how it performs.
p.2 #14 · It's official: Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f/1.0 in Z mount
I know of no other lenses with this specific behavior (increasing outward field curvature when focus is set closer) than the Noctilux f/0.95 and the Nokton f/1.0. This includes all other 50mm f/1.0 (or there about) lenses for various camera systems.
The two lenses with this behavior differ from the others on one account: They are (M mount) lenses with a floating lens element. Lenses for every camera system (including M) with an aperture near f/1 without floating lens element does not have this (unfortunate in my opinion) characteristic. This is what makes me assume that it is the floating lens element that causes it. If it was something else, like the aperture itself or the sensor glass thickness, I expect we would see this behavior with other lenses with similar spec's.
This is of course my understanding, and I could be wrong. So far, I expect I am right for the reasons given above, though.
Steve Spencer wrote:
I am not at all sure that would be caused by the floating element, but one problem in a lens with floating elements when adapting is that some such lenses are quite sensitive to adapters not being the exact right thickness. It certainly may be that this lens has those adapting issues. That shouldn't be an issue on a Z mount lens. It might be the lens design interacting with the thicker cover glass as well. Cover glass issues are always much worse with faster lenses and you are asking for cover glass issues when you adapt an f/1 lens. There will be issues even in the center and much worse performance at the edges. Either way, if the CV lens designer do their job right, those issues should not be there on the Z mount version, but I doubt we can expect better performance than on Leica M either. We will of course have to wait until the lens comes out and is tested before we really know how it performs....Show more →
Jan 21, 2023 at 10:17 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #15 · It's official: Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f/1.0 in Z mount
LarsHP wrote:
I know of no other lenses with this specific behavior (increasing outward field curvature when focus is set closer) than the Noctilux f/0.95 and the Nokton f/1.0. This includes all other 50mm f/1.0 (or there about) lenses for various camera systems.
The two lenses with this behavior differ from the others on one account: They are (M mount) lenses with a floating lens element. Lenses for every camera system (including M) with an aperture near f/1 without floating lens element does not have this (unfortunate in my opinion) characteristic. This is what makes me assume that it is the floating lens element that causes it. If it was something else, like the aperture itself or the sensor glass thickness, I expect we would see this behavior with other lenses with similar spec's.
This is of course my understanding, and I could be wrong. So far, I expect I am right for the reasons given above, though.
For me just two lenses with an FLE and near f/1 apertures is not enough to draw that conclusions that the FLE is doing it especially when we have at least two FLE lenses that are f/1.4 (i.e., Leica M 35 f/1.4 FLE; 50 f/1.4 Asph) that do not exhibit the behavior . I think what you are saying is an interesting idea. It is just for me two lenses that both have the field curvature issues and both have an FLE isn't enough to make an inference that the FLE is doing it for me, YMMV. That said, what do you think about the Zeiss ZM 35 f/1.4? Does it exhibit the same behavior too? It also has an FLE and is a quite fast lens. Slower lenses with an FLE (Leica M 50 f/2 APO; CVM 50 f/2 APO; Leica M 35 f/2 APO; Leica M 75 f/2 APO) do not seem to have this issue with field curvature as you get closer focus, so if it is the FLE it would seem to be a combination of the FLE with a super fast aperture and there might be something else to it as well. It might require the design restrictions of something related to small size as I don't think the new Nikon 58 f/0.95 (which has a FLE) exhibits this behavior either.
p.2 #16 · It's official: Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f/1.0 in Z mount
Steve Spencer wrote:
I am not at all sure that would be caused by the floating element, but one problem in a lens with floating elements when adapting is that some such lenses are quite sensitive to adapters not being the exact right thickness. It certainly may be that this lens has those adapting issues. That shouldn't be an issue on a Z mount lens. It might be the lens design interacting with the thicker cover glass as well. Cover glass issues are always much worse with faster lenses and you are asking for cover glass issues when you adapt an f/1 lens. There will be issues even in the center and much worse performance at the edges. Either way, if the CV lens designer do their job right, those issues should not be there on the Z mount version, but I doubt we can expect better performance than on Leica M either. We will of course have to wait until the lens comes out and is tested before we really know how it performs. ...Show more → LarsHP wrote:
I know of no other lenses with this specific behavior (increasing outward field curvature when focus is set closer) than the Noctilux f/0.95 and the Nokton f/1.0. This includes all other 50mm f/1.0 (or there about) lenses for various camera systems.
The two lenses with this behavior differ from the others on one account: They are (M mount) lenses with a floating lens element. Lenses for every camera system (including M) with an aperture near f/1 without floating lens element does not have this (unfortunate in my opinion) characteristic. This is what makes me assume that it is the floating lens element that causes it. If it was something else, like the aperture itself or the sensor glass thickness, I expect we would see this behavior with other lenses with similar spec's.
This is of course my understanding, and I could be wrong. So far, I expect I am right for the reasons given above, though. ...Show more → Steve Spencer wrote:
For me just two lenses with an FLE and near f/1 apertures is not enough to draw that conclusions that the FLE is doing it especially when we have at least two FLE lenses that are f/1.4 (i.e., Leica M 35 f/1.4 FLE; 50 f/1.4 Asph) that do not exhibit the behavior . I think what you are saying is an interesting idea. It is just for me two lenses that both have the field curvature issues and both have an FLE isn't enough to make an inference that the FLE is doing it for me, YMMV. That said, what do you think about the Zeiss ZM 35 f/1.4? Does it exhibit the same behavior too? It also has an FLE and is a quite fast lens. Slower lenses with an FLE (Leica M 50 f/2 APO; CVM 50 f/2 APO; Leica M 35 f/2 APO; Leica M 75 f/2 APO) do not seem to have this issue with field curvature as you get closer focus, so if it is the FLE it would seem to be a combination of the FLE with a super fast aperture and there might be something else to it as well. It might require the design restrictions of something related to small size as I don't think the new Nikon 58 f/0.95 (which has a FLE) exhibits this behavior either. ...Show more →
There are plenty of lenses with FLE design that don't have this field curvature behavior, so I am not saying that all FLE designs does this. My point is that the way the FLE design is made in the Noctilux-M f/0.95 and Nokton f/1.0 most likely causes the FC to bend outward in the sides and corners as you focus shorter.
This viewpoint is backed by the observation that 50mm lenses with similarly huge aperture and block focusing design don't have the FC behavior. This applies to both Leica M and other mirrorless cameras. So, we can exclude the huge aperture and sensor glass thickness from the list of possible culprits. At least, that is my understanding.
p.2 #17 · It's official: Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f/1.0 in Z mount
LarsHP wrote:
There are plenty of lenses with FLE design that don't have this field curvature behavior, so I am not saying that all FLE designs does this. My point is that the way the FLE design is made in the Noctilux-M f/0.95 and Nokton f/1.0 most likely causes the FC to bend outward in the sides and corners as you focus shorter.
This viewpoint is backed by the observation that 50mm lenses with similarly huge aperture and block focusing design don't have the FC behavior. This applies to both Leica M and other mirrorless cameras. So, we can exclude the huge aperture and sensor glass thickness from the list of possible culprits. At least, that is my understanding. ...Show more →
I'd be surprised if it is the floating element, as opposed to the desired properties of the lens that lead to the introduction of a floating element in the first place.
Primarily, the floating lens element achieves better image quality at close distances. But it may well be that there is a compromise between reducing chromatic aberrations, geometric distortion, and field curvature, such that a floating element that is optimized for all three may indeed result in a more pronounced field curvature. It may also be the case that the floating element, while intended to make the lens smaller, is also bringing the exit pupil closer to the sensor plane, and that may cause increased field curvature.
It should be possible to include a floating element, with all design parameters (size etc.) staying the same, without increasing the field curvature - but maybe you don't get the full benefit of the floating element with regard to other desired properties in this case.
As I said above, they only publish the MTF graphs for the APO Lanthar lenses or at least that is all they have published so far and those are the only lenses in the catalog you linked (thanks for the link by the way, it is a nice source). I expect that CV will continue to only publish the MTF graphs for the APO Lanthars, but hey you never know CV is notoriously hard to predict.
p.2 #20 · It's official: Voigtländer Nokton 50mm f/1.0 in Z mount
Steve Spencer wrote:
As I said above, they only publish the MTF graphs for the APO Lanthar lenses or at least that is all they have published so far and those are the only lenses in the catalog you linked (thanks for the link by the way, it is a nice source). I expect that CV will continue to only publish the MTF graphs for the APO Lanthars, but hey you never know CV is notoriously hard to predict.
