Lloyd is an extremely technically biased reviewer/photographer. The M is the absolutely worst possible FF system for him because it's built around design compromises that are for him illogical to his way of working/thinking.
I'm not saying his points of criticism are never worth considering - sometimes he finds things other less technical reviewers overlook. But it has to be weighed against one's own priorities for the M system.
Arka wrote:
You have to admit, this is kind of funny even if I don’t agree with all of it…
“ You can mount lenses incapable of sharp images on a 40MP sensor on the 60MP Leica M11, to capture more of that delicious Leica je ne sais WTF. “
Say what you will. Leica definitely carries a little of that “ je ne sais WTF.”
That said, I will soon be on the lookout for a good condition M10 or M10R.
Go for the 10-R then you will get used to your incapable of sharp images lenses at 40MP when somewhere down the road you decide its time for an M11.
Good thing I haven't decided yet. I will have to reread all his M lens reviews as they had some influence way back when I got the M9M. They seem to be holding up fine on the M10M. Then again you can lead this ole horse to water but I won't necessarily drink what is being served. Though I do enjoy reading his reviews whether I agree or not.
The e-shutter is cool. I use it on the 60MP A7R4 but because the sensor scan rate is so slow, both camera and subject must be still to avoid skew.
So don’t throw away your NDs for that.
However, ISO 64 + superior highlights recovery is definitely a plus when using fast lenses wide open with the mechanical shutter under harsh light without NDs.
Metering is accurate with the M11 since LV is always on, but you can get multi-field (matrix metering) with the M10 models as well. Just press the LV button. Done!
Matt Kerby wrote:
I like the e-shutter, the new sensor and the new touch screen on the back. I get a little tired of futzing around with ND's all the time. The metering seems to be upgraded as well. Although I've owned and used both, I never found the upgrade from my m240 to the m10 or even the m10r "worth" it.
rscheffler wrote:
Lloyd is an extremely technically biased reviewer/photographer. The M is the absolutely worst possible FF system for him because it's built around design compromises that are for him illogical to his way of working/thinking.
I'm not saying his points of criticism are never worth considering - sometimes he finds things other less technical reviewers overlook. But it has to be weighed against one's own priorities for the M system.
Lloyd Chambers knows how to hunt down the weakness in a system. Whether that weakness amounts to a hill of beans is for you to judge, most often, it is not.
His value comparison of the M11 to a Fuji GFX100 kinda misses the point.
Lloyd's content and opinion cater to those who seek quantifiable differences in photography.
It's always about the -est of something. However, that's not what Leica is about.
Heck, I'd go as far as saying that's not what photography is about.
You can have the sharpest and fastest lens/camera combo in the world, it doesn't mean your photography would be good.
I've been fascinated by photography for over 2 decades, and spent a fortune pursuing cutting-edge gears and courses. But after a while, I realize what photography fascinates me is not so much about speed, sharpness, or even composition/creating images at all. But about the engineering that went into creating gears in different times.
Thus, I'm more involved now in studying the history of lens/cameras than anything else. Some might say it's no longer about photography anymore, which I agree. But judging by the same point, I don't think what Lloyd is doing is really about photography, but rather the quantifiable aspect of photography and I respect his works greatly.
I'm happy for anyone that's excited and buys it. Always fun to get new kit. Definitely not for me, but maybe a decade down the line I'll get the M14 or something
Desmolicious wrote:
Then he says the ZM 35 1.4 is the best lens ever including the haptics and
ergos? I have that lens! My one complaint IS THE MISERABLE HAPTICS AND ERGOS! Optically awesome though.
Your Honour, the defense rests.
Hey, let’s not drag an absolutely stellar lens into this argument.
Funnily enough the ergonomics of the 35mm F1.4 ZM are actually the best though… on an SL.
pmeheut wrote:
BTW, I'm weak: mine should arrive next Tuesday.
That is pretty impressive. Were you on a pre-order list already? I am sure in the US if you weren't (and unless you are extremely well connected) you are probably going to wait for months and months and months...
SlowDriver wrote:
That is pretty impressive. Were you on a pre-order list already? I am sure in the US if you weren't (and unless you are extremely well connected) you are probably going to wait for months and months and months...
This is usually the same here with wait lists but my reseller is excellent, had ordered some stock and I guess he did not allocate it entirely.
Ok, he is also a friend so it helps.
SlowDriver wrote:
He is very knowledgeable but he is a sales person first...
The lack of IBIS was an absolute non-issue with the CL, then it was a game changer with the SL2, now it is a non-issue again...
I think that when you factor in the physical size of the CL / lenses and the M / lenses ... the IBIS is less of an issue than when using the SL / lenses for the size / weight differences. I know that this wasn't the point of the comment ... rather the apparent swing regarding the significance of IBIS and the "salemanship" for / against it.
But, I think that with regard to IBIS ... particularly those who have become conditioned to it (myself, weaning from it) ... the improved quality of the ISO gives folks the confidence to go without IBIS, coupled with the handling haptic and technique.
For me ... this translates into a few things ... but, the shutter release is one of the more important aspects of being able to shoot without IBIS. Imo, a great shutter release (quiet or less quiet, don't care so much, but tactile response is key) is a much overlooked aspect in one's need for IBIS. The better the shutter release (much like a good trigger), the more stable the shot.
So what modern lens to mount first? I vote for the APO 35/2.0 since I understand it was developed about the same time as the M11.
So what legacy lens to mount first? I vote for the Noctilux 1.0 in order to see in bright daylight (BTW we have that today) how it performs wide open without an ND filter attached.
The shutter is so freak'n sweet on the M 10 Mono. I can't see why the mechanical choice on the M 11 wouldn't be the same. Nothing on the M 11 would have me changing from my M 10s and especially the M 10 Mono. But thats me. Im sure this will do very well for Leica.
While I am complaining on the price as it is more than I want to spend on a single camera body as a happy amateur photographer without a plan, I think you have to look at the price based on the cost of manufacturing and how many units they can make to recoup investments. The M11 market is minuscule compared to how many Sony A7R4s or Canon R5s are made and sold out there.
The price might be justified, it is just more than I'm willing to spend.
Depending on what you upgrade from, those numbers will be different. But, if you're shooting with a 10 year old Leica now ... no reason to think the M11 won't be good for you 10 years from now.
Kinda depends on which end you are looking at it from wrt price vs. value.
YMMV
patotts wrote:
While I am complaining on the price as it is more than I want to spend on a single camera body as a happy amateur photographer without a plan, I think you have to look at the price based on the cost of manufacturing and how many units they can make to recoup investments. The M11 market is minuscule compared to how many Sony A7R4s or Canon R5s are made and sold out there.
The price might be justified, it is just more than I'm willing to spend.
Jan 14, 2022 at 10:40 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
For me I do see a lot of things I like. Including:
The sensor - I like that it is BSI and although I won't use the extra resolution much I am glad it is there for the times I will.
The electronic shutter - again I won't use it much but I am glad it is there for times it will be helpful
The new metering - I think metering off the sensor makes sense and if Jono Slack is right that shutter lag is about the same as the M10 with metering off the shutter, then I think this is a good thing. I never had any big problems with metering off the shutter, but I think this will be a small but still noticeable improvement.
The aluminum top plate - I know this won't be the popular opinion, but I am happy to trade the 110g weight savings for the change in material especially if Jono is right about it still being very durable.
The internal storage - like many others I have several times left the house with my SD card in the reader and without a spare. It will be nice when I inevitably do that again to actually be able to shoot. It also appears to download faster than an SD card.
The USB-C ports - I may not leave my SD card at home if I get this camera some day as I may never take it out of the camera. Personally I would likely only rarely take the battery out either. I would charge it in the camera using USB-C. This would be great as I would likely get an Arca Swiss compatible plate for the bottom and never take it off if I can access the USB-C port.
The bigger battery - I am fine with the battery from M10 if you use it primarily with the rangefinder it lasts a very long time, but they were able to use a bigger battery without making the camera heavier so that is a plus and allows more use of the EVF for the times I use it.
The new EVF - going up in resolution makes sense and I like the design of the new one better than the Visoflex 020. I wish this new one gave the resolution increase when used with the M10 and as it doesn't I can't see why I would get it. Maybe in addition to the resolution increase the optics are better which could still result in a noticeable improvement for the M10, but for the M11 I think the resolution increase is a nice improvement.
Making the button more programmable - This isn't a big deal to me, but I think I will like being able to set the buttons to the exact functions I want.
Things I am neutral about:
The change in the bottom plate - I don't think this change will matter one way or the other for me. Especially if I am right that I would tend to keep the battery and SD care in the camera and just use the USB-C port.
The changes in the menu - The changes in the menu seem fine but not much of an improvement either. As above I do like that some of the buttons have more options but aside from that I don't see much improvement or problems.
The shutter sound - I am happy with the shutter sound of my vanilla M10. I know some people prefer the M10P, M10-R shutter sound, but for me it is a tradeoff. I am a bit hard of hearing so although I like to turn the shutter sound completely off sometimes I find a softer shutter sound hard to hear sometimes. For me personally, the tradeoff of having the shutter sound be quieter and less disturbing to others is off set by my having a harder time hearing it when I want to. I could certainly live with the softer shutter sound, but I am at least as happy with the louder sound of the M10.
Things I don't like:
I can't really see much of anything and that is probably more important than any of the improvements.
For me I am really happy with what Leica did with this camera and even more happy with what they did not do (i.e., mess with the rangefinder or the size of the camera). Does that mean I will get the camera? No, not for four or five years. In fact, I am still pretty sure I will get the M10R before I get this camera, but when I eventually upgrade to it I think this will be a camera I like a lot, but the improvements are all small enough that I can't see dishing out the extra dough for quite some time.
Depending on what you upgrade from, those numbers will be different. But, if you're shooting with a 10 year old Leica now ... no reason to think the M11 won't be good for you 10 years from now.
Kinda depends on which end you are looking at it from wrt price vs. value.
YMMV
$75/Mo or $2.5/Day, so an M11 really costs no more than a Starbucks?
First thing that smacks at lighter is the outer box for the M11. It's about half the size of latest M10 outer boxes and when you get inside you see why. There is no longer a drawer system. Once you open the interior box the camera, battery and charger are all packed individually with cushioning material all around them. As soon as I lifted the M11 out I could tell is was lighter by a lot. Charging 1st battery now.
BTW the metal Viso is huge and heavy feeling while weighing in my small scale at 83 grams without bottom rubber protector nor the soft bag provided.
