p.19 #1 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
noticed a conversation with AlexPhan on FB - where he has been testing the Z9 in the field. So far the word on the Z9's autofocus is not encouraging. He noted that the system was slower than his A1 to lock onto swallows, and that sudden turns of the swallow (once being tracked in flight) would cause the Camera to instantly lose focus, where he did not experience this with the A1. As many of you know, Alex Phan is quite an experienced BIF photographer - and he noted overall he is not happy with his Z9. Sounds like Nikon still has work to do on their AF system. I will add that he is using the Z9 with the 500PF
p.19 #2 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Maxxus46 wrote:
noticed a conversation with AlexPhan on FB - where he has been testing the Z9 in the field. So far the word on the Z9's autofocus is not encouraging. He noted that the system was slower than his A1 to lock onto swallows, and that sudden turns of the swallow (once being tracked in flight) would cause the Camera to instantly lose focus, where he did not experience this with the A1. As many of you know, Alex Phan is quite an experienced BIF photographer - and he noted overall he is not happy with his Z9. Sounds like Nikon still has work to do on their AF system. I will add that he is using the Z9 with the 500PF ...Show more →
I'm sure it will take more than the first week of release for folks to figure out the optimal AF settings and uses.
Alternatively, many folks on the Nikon board with Z9s are praising the AF system. However, I suspect most of them are not used to the A1's sticky AF to compare to.
p.19 #3 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
RoamingScott wrote:
I'm sure it will take more than the first week of release for folks to figure out the optimal AF settings and uses.
Alternatively, many folks on the Nikon board with Z9s are praising the AF system. However, I suspect most of them are not used to the A1's sticky AF to compare to.
I guess we will see right? Alex has had the camera in the field every day now for several weeks... and he is quite versed in using Nikon AF systems (as well as Sony). Therefore i believe his analysis to be spot on, as he was about the A1 during his initial tests. Ill post more as i hear from him.
Jan 05, 2022 at 09:21 AM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.19 #4 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
i saw that on his fb, it mirrors what jared polin experienced and posted in his z9 video... focus jumping from face to basketball instead of staying locked on head when face is turned, slow af with stepper motors, etc.
fro stated in the comment section of his video: "Canon and Sony's AF is still better in my opinion based on using it in the real world. I can say that, I can say it because I use the cameras."
p.19 #5 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Maxxus46 wrote:
I am involved in other projects that are actually more critical than building of a camera body. I can assure you of one thing- i know MUCH more than you do about engineering and structural materials - it is my area of study. Not going to get into a loony p!ssing contest with someone like you - it a waste of my time. You obviously know next to nothing about engineering but your good at poking people when you dislike what they have to say. i say too bad!!
Again you missed my points...and no I'm not poking at you....just speaking to what comes across as arrogance a bit that as an engineer you know all things engineering...and of the hundreds of engineers I've worked with, even their wives would acknowledge that fault...that they think they can engineer anything simply because they have engineering experience in their field...and that...was my ongoing point...that by your own admission no...you're not involved in designing cameras, and gee....the engineers that are and were involved in designing the cameras do know more than you in that field, and equally importantly, any adult knows that design is not a free reign arena to always make the best design choices....there are supply chain reasons to choose a lesser design or greater design element, there are accounting reasons that can govern design choices, there are political influences on which parts or designs or engineers chosen for a project will have the most positive impact on someone's career..or...avoiding that glamorous praise to fall on someone outside of the political cliques that occur in every corporate team I've ever been amongst, and pretty much in any country since all people are essentially having the same human nature of looking out for oneself to one degree or another. So...all that to say that no....I'm not so petty as replying to something I don't like....I was making a simple rebuttal to your point that your points are far too simplistic as an "engineer" to say what you said with:
"Also it's funny how some assume because it's bigger it must be tougher... But thats actually opposite in the engineering world. Large areas within a magnesium frame are open to more flex and vibration unless structural reinforcement points are added, which adds more weight. Also not uncommon for a large DSLR to get dropped on the ground from waste level and stop functioning all together (heavier it is the harder the impact!). So completely false Narratives."
You're not the authority on saying how it "is" in the engineering world....and you're wrong....it's not always that larger areas are open to more flex...it depends on thickness of the material and where that larger span is relative to the rest of the design and where are the points of impact (like crumple zone design in a car let's say....the weaker material is used to design in a strength of safety to absorb and redirect energy around the most vital aspects of the innards...in a car...the human...in a camera..the electronics....). And actually, smartness....it's "not uncommon for" ANY camera "to get dropped on the ground from waste level and stop functioning altogether" (the word is spelled waist by the way in case you need help engineering a sentence)
"Not going to get into a loony p!ssing contest with someone like you - it a waste of my time."
Never was writing in the form of a contest....simply a challenge to your comments just like you're challenging mine. Don't write in a public forum if you can't handle replies in a public forum....respectfully.
And like I said earlier...no further explanation is likely to help...I explained a little further...and you proved it didn't help....wasn't meant to antagonize you....was just trying to make some points that are a little blunt but I think fair to point out, as you ARE wrong in making over simplistic incredibly obvious points that any non-engineer is already aware of ....so friendly feedback....ease up on the "I'm an engineer so I know better" as that's not seemingly the case by the points made.
Not trying to argue...just making points directly with no heartful intent to offend you...but maybe jab back at a little at the attitude that seems to be there a bit.
And I could be wrong...but glad to have the freedom to disagree and certainly am open to learning, but knowing more and being better at something are two very different things.
p.19 #6 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
i see some updates posted by AlexPhan on his FB page... looks like his testing is pretty involved, and so far he has not seen much positive with the Z9's AF system. Its unfortunate but certainly seems Nikon has work to do . Alex posted several videos (Live recordings off camera to external display) showing the camera repeatedly lose focus, even with slower moving birds (A Gliding Osprey and a Harrier.) Once the camera lost focus due to background distractions, it never reacquired at all. Alex noted he used "Lock 5 Auto Af mode" as suggested by his Z9 Pro user group.
Alex commented " Subject acquisition problem and focus drop with Z9. This remind me of the old dslr day. It struggle badly to acquire and stay on when tracking the swallow. I got zero images out of it. Also the focus drop when busy background in the back." - that's a copy & paste so i didn't correct any spelling errors.
Setup here was the Z9 + 100-400Z
Af-C, 30Fps
Mix of single focus area and Dynamic M
Jan 07, 2022 at 08:46 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.19 #7 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Maxxus46 wrote:
i see some updates posted by AlexPhan on his FB page... looks like his testing is pretty involved, and so far he has not seen much positive with the Z9's AF system. Its unfortunate but certainly seems Nikon has work to do . Alex posted several videos (Live recordings off camera to external display) showing the camera repeatedly lose focus, even with slower moving birds (A Gliding Osprey and a Harrier.) Once the camera lost focus due to background distractions, it never reacquired at all. Alex noted he used "Lock 5 Auto Af mode" as suggested by his Z9 Pro user group.
Alex commented " Subject acquisition problem and focus drop with Z9. This remind me of the old dslr day. It struggle badly to acquire and stay on when tracking the swallow. I got zero images out of it. Also the focus drop when busy background in the back." - that's a copy & paste so i didn't correct any spelling errors.
Setup here was the Z9 + 100-400Z
Af-C, 30Fps
Mix of single focus area and Dynamic M ...Show more →
I find Alex's videos to be premature. What we need is people to use the Z9 and competing cameras for a couple of months and then comments on the the strengths and weaknesses of each AF system. We do not need a full detailed report of every time that Alex (or any user) has trouble using the AF system as they learn it. Sure those sort of reports are great for a Youtube channel, but they aren't helpful to photographers. Please let Alex and any other user get used to the system and how it works for them. Then we can await a balanced account after the system is mastered as much as it can be. By the way the same can be said for those who gush about how wonderfully the system works. People need more time and experience with the system and figuring out how to get the most out of it and where its limitations lie before any sort of global evaluation can be made.
To be clear this isn't a knock on Alex. He has posted here a lot and he is a good photographer and I think in time I want to hear his full take on the camera. I just think any evaluation of the system as a whole is premature at this point.
p.19 #8 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Steve Spencer wrote:
I find Alex's videos to be premature. What we need is people to use the Z9 and competing cameras for a couple of months and then comments on the the strengths and weaknesses of each AF system. We do not need a full detailed report of every time the Alex (or any user) has trouble using the AF system as they learn it. Sure those sort of reports are great for a Youtube channel, but they aren't helpful to photographer. Please let Alex and any other use get used to the system and how it works for them. Then we can await a balanced account after the system is mastered as much as it can be. By the way the same can be said for those who gush about how wonderfully the system works. People need more time and experience with the system and figuring out how to get the most out of it before any sort of global evaluation can be made.
To be clear this isn't a knock on Alex. He has posted here a lot and he is a good photographer and I think in time I want to hear his full take on the camera. I just think any evaluation of the system as a whole in premature at this point....Show more →
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I don't find his information or video's to be premature at all. Alex is heavily experienced at BIF -and i certainly feel his tests have merit as his Z9 is his own, bought and paid for with his own money. Take the information as you will
Jan 07, 2022 at 09:28 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.19 #9 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Maxxus46 wrote:
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I don't find his information or video's to be premature at all. Alex is heavily experienced at BIF -and i certainly feel his tests have merit as his Z9 is his own, bought and paid for with his own money. Take the information as you will
Ok, we can agree to disagree. I don't think anyone has enough experience yet to evaluate the system as a whole, and as I said in my post that is nothing against Alex. I certainly am not implying that Alex didn't buy the camera or that he isn't a very good and experienced photographer, but neither Alex or anyone else, IMO, is experienced with the Z9 system yet, so any comments about the functioning of the system as a whole are premature at this point by Alex or anyone else.
Keep in mind based on past AF systems we can expect the Nikon AF system to be more complex and to take more time to master. I don't think that is necessarily a knock on a pro level camera, but it does mean evaluation of the system may take more time and quick one off evaluations are likely to be incomplete.
Oh, and to make it clear who I am, I decided not to buy the Z9 and I am sticking with an A9 while my wife bought the A1, so I don't think my biases are with Nikon and the Z9.
p.19 #10 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Steve Spencer wrote:
I find Alex's videos to be premature. What we need is people to use the Z9 and competing cameras for a couple of months and then comments on the the strengths and weaknesses of each AF system. We do not need a full detailed report of every time that Alex (or any user) has trouble using the AF system as they learn it. Sure those sort of reports are great for a Youtube channel, but they aren't helpful to photographers. Please let Alex and any other user get used to the system and how it works for them. Then we can await a balanced account after the system is mastered as much as it can be. By the way the same can be said for those who gush about how wonderfully the system works. People need more time and experience with the system and figuring out how to get the most out of it and where its limitations lie before any sort of global evaluation can be made.
To be clear this isn't a knock on Alex. He has posted here a lot and he is a good photographer and I think in time I want to hear his full take on the camera. I just think any evaluation of the system as a whole is premature at this point....Show more →
I think I would charactorize the videos as in process rather than premature.
Nothing wrong with posting content from the process of his evaluation. Much can be learned from that. He can get feedback and suggestions as well as share his experiences. No reason not to share.
I do agree it will take months of work to understand the system fully. I am still and hopefully always will be learning new things that help me optimize my equipment.
Jan 07, 2022 at 09:39 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.19 #11 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
1bwana1 wrote:
I think I would charactorize the videos as in process rather than premature.
Nothing wrong with posting content from the process of his evaluation. Much can be learned from that. He can get feedback and suggestions as well as share his experiences. No reason not to share.
I do agree it will take months of work to understand the system fully. I am still and hopefully always will be learning new things that help me optimize my equipment.
Steve I don't think we need to quibble about the words that we use whether "in process," or "premature," the point is global evaluations of the system really shouldn't be made and when Maxxus46 says, "so far he has not seen much positive with the Z9's AF system," I think he is making a global evaluation that is premature. As long as you stay with the concrete in such and such mode Alex had this problem or in such and such mode this type of shooting went well that is fine, but once you start talking about the system and whether it is positive or not you are making broader statements that I think can be justified at this point.
p.19 #12 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
So far, from everything I have seen from EVF recordings and some written comments around the web, I can see a few areas where the Z9 may end up struggling compared to the A1. But I can't really say until I have it in my own hands as everything out there now is half baked testing at best.
I have a feeling that when it comes to non-BIF Eye-AF that the Z9 will be every bit as good as the A1.
However, I have a feeling that when it comes to ignoring backgrounds during initial acquisition and during longer tracking sequences of BIF the Z9 is not at A1 level (nor A9 from what I've see so far). It reminds me more of R5 type AF.
My other big concern is AF modes available and how they interact (or rather don't interact in many cases) with the tracking and eye-af algorithms. On Sony we have full access to all AF modes from the smallest flex spot up to Wide which have the option to be combined or not-combined with the RTT algorithms. And with Sony's customization options one can go back and forth between the tracking and non-tracking versions just by holding in or letting go of a single button.
On the Z9 we have a number of AF modes that can't make use of the tracking and eye-AF (Pinpoint, Single, Dynamic). Then we have the Wide-Area AF (in a few sizes), Auto and 3D which can make use of it. Auto will work like Sony Wide but so far isn't looking nearly as effective from all reports I've read and seen. 3D would be like using Med Flex Spot with Tracking on Sony. Good for some things like perched birds and really large BIF but next to useless for what I want to shoot in small, erratic and fast BIF. Wide Area- AF Large is being touted by lots of Z9 owners as the most effective for BIF. That is good, but as far as I can tell it won't track the eye/subject it finds initially in the Large box very far outside that box. That won't work for fast, erratic, BIF either.
So Auto AF is the only mode that can work for me for fast, erratic BIF but so far there are a lot of negative reports about Auto AF and its love of backgrounds.
I'm still waiting for my Z9. I could be totally proven wrong about Auto-AF but I'm worried. Auto-AF was my go to fast, erratic BIF AF mode on my D500/D850 and it worked uncannily well....sort of like how good Wide (non-tracking) works on Sony.
p.19 #13 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Steve Spencer wrote:
I find Alex's videos to be premature.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Steve I don't think we need to quibble about the words that we use whether "in process," or "premature," the point is global evaluations of the system really shouldn't be made and when Maxxus46 says, "so far he has not seen much positive with the Z9's AF system," I think he is making a global evaluation that is premature. As long as you stay with the concrete in such and such mode Alex had this problem or in such and such mode this type of shooting went well that is fine, but once you start talking about the system and whether it is positive or not you are making broader statements that I think can be justified at this point....Show more →
I guess I misunderstood. I thought you meant Alex sharing his videos was premature. If what you are saying is drawing definitive conclusions from them is premature, then we are 100% in agreement.
That does still leave room for discussions based on his videos as he posts them.
p.19 #14 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
The level of understanding of a system, how it works, and how it best blends with ones own personal style and needs, is a set of very complex relationships.
I think that is well demonstrated in this video of using the Sony a1 to solve a challenge when photographing Swallows in a particular environment. It will take some time until we get similarly in depth videos for the Z9.
p.19 #16 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Yes, but the future FW updates part can also be applied to A1 and R3... The real problem is not many pro guys will have all 3 at the same time for long enough, and the reviewers will have all 3 but still not for long enough as well.
randomguy wrote:
I think it is a bit early to conclude how the af on Z9 compares, few have it and future FW updates may bring big improvements. Remember the A9?
p.19 #17 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Maxxus46 wrote:
i see some updates posted by AlexPhan on his FB page... looks like his testing is pretty involved, and so far he has not seen much positive with the Z9's AF system. Its unfortunate but certainly seems Nikon has work to do . Alex posted several videos (Live recordings off camera to external display) showing the camera repeatedly lose focus, even with slower moving birds (A Gliding Osprey and a Harrier.) Once the camera lost focus due to background distractions, it never reacquired at all. Alex noted he used "Lock 5 Auto Af mode" as suggested by his Z9 Pro user group.
Alex commented " Subject acquisition problem and focus drop with Z9. This remind me of the old dslr day. It struggle badly to acquire and stay on when tracking the swallow. I got zero images out of it. Also the focus drop when busy background in the back." - that's a copy & paste so i didn't correct any spelling errors.
Setup here was the Z9 + 100-400Z
Af-C, 30Fps
Mix of single focus area and Dynamic M ...Show more →
To be fair, AFAIK the 100-400Z uses stepper motors, which aren't the best choice when trying to keep up with swallows. A bit like someone drew the conclusion that the A1 AF is inferior to the R5, after testing it with the old 70-200GM.
p.19 #18 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Daran wrote:
To be fair, AFAIK the 100-400Z uses stepper motors, which aren't the best choice when trying to keep up with swallows. A bit like someone drew the conclusion that the A1 AF is inferior to the R5, after testing it with the old 70-200GM.
p.19 #19 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Daran wrote:
To be fair, AFAIK the 100-400Z uses stepper motors, which aren't the best choice when trying to keep up with swallows. A bit like someone drew the conclusion that the A1 AF is inferior to the R5, after testing it with the old 70-200GM.
I don't disagree but the 100400Z is Nikons latest release with their flagship. Why didn't they use linear AF motors ? I will also say many will try the Z9 with the 500pf, which Alex also found to have similar issues. I guess they need a native 400 2.8, 500f4 or 600f4 with faster focus motors. That certainly doesn't bode well for current buyers though. They just won't get the performance they paid for... And by the time they can there will likely be another body released I am sure
p.19 #20 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Maxxus46 wrote:
I don't disagree but the 100400Z is Nikons latest release with their flagship. Why didn't they use linear AF motors ? I will also say many will try the Z9 with the 500pf, which Alex also found to have similar issues. I guess they need a native 400 2.8, 500f4 or 600f4 with faster focus motors. That certainly doesn't bode well for current buyers though. They just won't get the performance they paid for... And by the time they can there will likely be another body released I am sure
The rumor is the 400 2.8 TC will have "new motors". I suspect all the larger Nikon primes from this point will as well.
I agree it's silly the 100-400 has steppers, but in practice, it's not all that slow. If the Nikon AF system wasn't so jumpy from subject to background, it wouldn't be an issue at all.
"Highly accurate AF that only Nikon can offer"