p.2 #2 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
nhsonyshooter wrote:
Well aware of what a VM is. I could care less about Leica. I'm talking about spending resources on a much larger market like Sony (this is a Sony forum not Leica) where they would make sense and sell many more than this lens.
But how large is the Sony market really, I know Sony sells so much more cameras than Leica does but how many of those buyers are interested in using manual focus lenses? I have no idea myself but i assume there is a pretty large majority of Sony (and Canon and Nikon for that matter) shooters that only uses AF lenses and would never consider buying something else.
Ah well, this is very off topic but still interesting
p.2 #3 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
joakim wrote:
But how large is the Sony market really, I know Sony sells so much more cameras than Leica does but how many of those buyers are interested in using manual focus lenses? I have no idea myself but i assume there is a pretty large majority of Sony (and Canon and Nikon for that matter) shooters that only uses AF lenses and would never consider buying something else.
Ah well, this is very off topic but still interesting
There's quite a bit of interest in MF lenses on these boards (mostly with the Cosina lenses and a couple of the better Zeiss Loxias) and on flickr (adding in groups for nearly every MF lens still available on the used market). It's certainly niche, but it's a large enough market to keep adapter manufacturers in business as well as growing a few upstart Chinese optics manufacturers (Venus Optics, 7Artisan, and TTArtisan). It's hard to say if that market is bigger than Leica's base, but it's obviously too big to be dismissed.
How much that interest would extend to new long/super-teles, though, is another question entirely.
p.2 #4 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
On topic, I'd say Cosina knows exactly what they're doing. 35's and 50's are focal lengths where they know they can sell multiple versions to the same users, because they're useful, easy-to-love focal lengths that can be appreciated for different attributes in different shooting scenarios. They're nimble enough to do a short run on a lens and suspend production until they see if it gains traction.
p.2 #5 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
Steve Spencer wrote:
Yeah, but don't you think those lenses would be Sony E mount lenses and not VM lenses? A VM lens is for Leica M and that long of lens doesn't really make sense for Leica M. If Voigtlander were to make a 180/200mm or 300mm I would think they would make it for Sony E mount and not for Leica M. Simply put even another 50mm lens probably makes a lot more sense for Lecia M than long lenses that are not well suited for the Leica M camera.
Yes. Like I said already. It's a resource question really. CV focused on making another 50mm for lecia which have more than 10+ options right now at 50mm. I mean really? How about use those resources and make something that doesn't exist yet for E mount since it is a larger market. That's all my initial point was. Not meant to be that controversial or complicated. I just gave a couple examples. Heck the 75mm in E mount would have been a better business option in my opinion than making another 50mm. Like said multiple times. Fill a hole instead.
p.2 #6 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
I would expect that Cosina knows just how many lenses, in both focal length and mount, that are sold; giving the company an idea about what might appeal to a somewhat discerning user base. There is also the incentive of building for bragging rights. I'd say that is part of what companies like Cosina and DJ Optical etc are looking at... Even Leica, releasing it's current 50 cron in LTM...
p.2 #7 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
Steve Spencer wrote:
This is a VM lens. A 180/200 or 300 doesn't make much sense on a Leica M camera. I would like to see them develop a 90 or a 135, however, that would make a lot more sense on a Leica M camera.
As a regular M shooter, my 90 Tele-Elmarit-M rarely comes out fo the bag, and my 135 Tele-Elmar, almost never. Used prices of 90 and 135 M lenses are really low. The M platform just isn't a telephoto platform, IMHO.
Aug 13, 2021 at 07:11 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #8 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
Danner wrote:
As a regular M shooter, my 90 Tele-Elmarit-M rarely comes out fo the bag, and my 135 Tele-Elmar, almost never. Used prices of 90 and 135 M lenses are really low. The M platform just isn't a telephoto platform, IMHO.
I totally agree. I don't even have a 135mm. I do use 90mm sometimes, but I use a 50mm a lot more.
p.2 #9 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
As I mentioned before, I am very curious about the performance of this lens. I cannot figure out how to think of it. I enjoy the 3.5 Heliar as a very "clean window" kind of lens. With its f/3.5 aperture, it is not used in extremely thin depth of field situations (perhaps except near minimum focus). I do not think of it as a lens with "character" other than pleasingly clear. In my mind, the f/1.5 range tends to be more about effects such as produced by the 50mm Sonnar 1.5. So I am very unsure what to expect from a Heliar at this aperture.
I am impressed that Voigtlander is attempting to push the Classic Heliar this far. I am hoping for another useful lens from them. I know that I have too many 50s. One more would not really make it worse.
p.2 #12 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
RustyBug wrote:
CV made it a VM ... that alone should tip folks off that might be a thread of interest to Leica shooters ... by its primary design.
Cosina knows very well that their VM lenses can be adapted to most mirrorless brands, in addition to Leica M cameras. Indeed that might be what makes several or even many of these lenses be economically viable, and thus in turn make business sense. I can perfectly well imagine that e.g. some Nikon Z camera owners adapt some M-mount lenses and so forth.
p.2 #14 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
Understood that the realm of adaptation exists ... in many regard. But since CV had dedicated lenses for E mount that doesn't exist for M mount, it would seem they are only all too well aware of the E mount market. Thus, when they decide to make a dedicated VM, well ... I think they know what their game plan is, as well as the alternatives.
Imo, if their target market for this lens was E mount, they would / will do so. Although, given the optical design issues for Heliar,they may already know that the optical design isn't a great match for the sensor stack differences ... thus, the VM designator .. and we are right back to Leica as the primary design.
And of course we will adapt it to E mount anyway, then complain about how it has limitations.
But, I still think it pretty obvious that a VM lens would be of interest to Leica shooters, even if other folks might have an adaptation interest, too.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Here it is next to the Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 Aspherical II (Nickel)
Well, one reason to buy the Heliar IMO is it doesn't have the chrome front ring. Physically it doesn't look much different in size to the Nokton. Makes me wonder if there's really much of a difference, other than cosmetics. Looking forward to seeing the optical block diagram.
Juha Kannisto wrote:
It was released in 2006 (as limited release). I have one (in black) as well and quite like it. I think it's designated classic because wide open at f2 it's stretching the classic Heliar design and comes with a rather strong character (I like it a lot wide open too) but stopped down it's pretty normal and a strong performer. I wish it focused closer than 1m and I suppose the new version will.
Indeed in the photo posted to Twitter you can clearly see the focus distance scale includes closer than 1m distances.
p.2 #16 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
bjornthun wrote:
Cosina knows very well that their VM lenses can be adapted to most mirrorless brands, in addition to Leica M cameras. Indeed that might be what makes several or even many of these lenses be economically viable, and thus in turn make business sense. I can perfectly well imagine that e.g. some Nikon Z camera owners adapt some M-mount lenses and so forth.
Yes, there is the adapted market, news flash ... that's VERY old news.
Many of us have adapters older than Sony has been making ICL cameras.
p.2 #17 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
rscheffler wrote:
Well, one reason to buy the Heliar IMO is it doesn't have the chrome front ring. Physically it doesn't look much different in size to the Nokton. Makes me wonder if there's really much of a difference, other than cosmetics. Looking forward to seeing the optical block diagram.
+1 on physical similarity vs. optical difference (tbd).
p.2 #18 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
'of course we will adapt it to E'
Who is this we, brother? As they burn credibility, their looming problem is that (i) the kind of user who is interested in 'adapting' specialty manual focus lenses to Sony et al is also (ii) the kind of buyer who is extremely fussy, being seriously concerned about ensuring that the said lenses work as well or better than on their native target M mount. Speaking here of non-dual users of M and E.
It took a few nanoseconds to reject the idea of buying the latest potential adapter lens from them for use on Sony cameras - the Vintage Ultron 28/2, courtesy of Fred's June 11 review. Of course, one could gather cobwebs waiting for the third Sony-only Voigtlander to arrive, after 2017/2018's pair of macros.
They sure know what their game is, but now so do we - 'if it can't be made for Leica, we won't make it'. Between that and their refusal to produce non-macro lenses longer than 50mm (they have just one, the M friendly 75/1.5), it's pretty clear now. They are moving quickly into the Zeiss dustbin of history with respect to Sony use, courtesy of their Leica-first design intentions and 50mm-or-wider philosophy, some would say obsession.
p.2 #19 · Official: Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm F1.5 VM
RustyBug wrote:
Yes, there is the adapted market, news flash ... that's VERY old news.
Many of us have adapters older than Sony has been making ICL cameras.
I Leitaxed some Leica R lenses to use on Nikon F-mount.
Well, one reason to buy the Heliar IMO is it doesn't have the chrome front ring. Physically it doesn't look much different in size to the Nokton. Makes me wonder if there's really much of a difference, other than cosmetics. Looking forward to seeing the optical block diagram.
Indeed in the photo posted to Twitter you can clearly see the focus distance scale includes closer than 1m distances.
My guess is that the Heliar 50/1.5 is some sort of by modern standards non-perfect optical design to give character. My guess is Sonnar-like rather than double Gauss like. A Heliar is in theory a five element design, like the Zeiss ZM 85/4 Tessar or Voigtländer Heliar 50/3.5. The ZM 85/4 is a five element instead of four that the Tessar name would indicate. The question is what a Heliar is when opened up all the way to f/1.5.
