Steve Spencer wrote:
If you read the article his source of some negativity is that he thinks Nikon might build an excellent AF system that can produce high level results, but it just won't be as automated as some of the competitors. If that is what Nikon does it bothers me zero. I am not a fan of automating things just so the user doesn't have to learn how to use it. I do recognize this is popular in general. It just isn't something I care about at all. I like to take the time to really learn to use a system and if a system well learned works better than an automated system even it it takes longer to learn. I will take the longer to learn better system every time over the automated system.
So if the Z9 has an AF system such that it takes some time and effort to learn it well, but when you do it works even better than the automated systems of the competitors, then I would definitely get the Z9 over the competition. I suspect, however, this won't be the decision a lot of people make. Automating things is popular and the Z9 might not do as well as Nikon hopes....Show more →
The point is that the automation comes from advanced AI built into certain modes in the camera. This is where Nikon is most lacking, and where mirrorless offers big advantages. A mirrorless system that doesn't implement such features will be rightly perceived in the market as trailing in functionality, and therefore worth less in the market place. These features are additive. There is nothing keeping users of systems with such features from using modes that don't depend on the AI in situations where more user control produces superior results. Current users of the advanced stacked sensor cameras from Canon and Sony know these things well, and take advantage of both methods as needs dictate.
This is the exact situation Nikon currently has in the mirrorless marketplace. It has not worked out well for Nikon in reputation, sales, or mirrorless market share. It would be very unfortunate if this continues with the Z9 release. Thom Hogan is expressing his concern that if this turns out to be the case, the market will continue to punish Nikon for it. Rightly so.
There is no way to justify poorer performance in this area by saying one is happy to do it himself without the AI. I still find it enjoyable to shoot manual exposure, manual focus at times, even with advanced cameras like the a1. However, this is about the experience the lenses and process provide. This is in no way an excuse for a system that doesn't implement an advanced AI choice. Ask shooters of cameras from Sony and Canon. The vast majority will tell you that the AI functions are valued and not something they would like to give up and go back to the old way of doing things.
If the Z9 doesn't live up to expectations in this regard, it will get hammered in the press. Some who have been waiting will lose patience and move systems. I think this is the fear that Thom Hogan is expressing. This rise in concern is not happening in a vacuum. He is likely hearing things through his contacts. If so, that would be consistent with some of what I have been hearing.
I really hope that Nikon waits until it get it right to release.
1bwana1 wrote:
The point is that the automation comes from advanced AI built into certain modes in the camera. This is where Nikon is most lacking, and where mirrorless offers big advantages. A mirrorless system that doesn't implement such features will be rightly perceived in the market as trailing in functionality, and therefor worth less in the market place. These features are additive. There is nothing keeping users of systems with such features from using modes that don't depend on the AI in situations where more user control produces superior results. Current users of the advanced stacked sensor cameras from Canon and Sony know these things well, and take advantage of both methods as needs dictate.
This is the exact situation Nikon currently has in the mirrorless marketplace. It has not worked out well for Nikon in reputation, sales, or mirrorless market share. It would be very unfortunate if this continues with the Z9 release. Thom Hogan is expressing his concern that if this turns out to be the case, the market will continue to punish Nikon for it. Rightly so.
There is no way to justify poorer performance in this area by saying one is happy to do it himself without the AI. I still find it enjoyable to shoot manual exposure, manual focus at times, even with advanced cameras like the a1. However, this is about the experience the lenses and process provide. This is in no way an excuse for a system that doesn't implement an advanced AI choice. Ask shooters of cameras from Sony and Canon. The vast majority will tell you that the AI functions are valued and not something they would like to give up and go back to the old way of doing things.
If the Z9 doesn't live up to expectations in this regard, it will get hammered in the press. Some who have been waiting will lose patience and move systems. I think this is the fear that Thom Hogan is expressing. This rise in concern is not happening in a vacuum. He is likely hearing things through his contacts. If so, that would be consistent with some of what I have been hearing.
I really hope that Nikon waits until it get it right to release. ...Show more →
I disagreed with you so many times in past, but not this time.
That's exactly how I took on Thom's write up.
Internet is brutal, especially towards Nikon.
Internet can lift you up, but it can press you below ground level, it's the reality.
Nikon has to exceed in every point, to be lifted up, otherwise, it won't be pretty.
I don't want to say it publicly, but this could be their last chance, to prove, they can deliver, and they can compete.
Oct 03, 2021 at 10:38 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
1bwana1 wrote:
The point is that the automation comes from advanced AI built into certain modes in the camera. This is where Nikon is most lacking, and where mirrorless offers big advantages. A mirrorless system that doesn't implement such features will be rightly perceived in the market as trailing in functionality, and therefore worth less in the market place. These features are additive. There is nothing keeping users of systems with such features from using modes that don't depend on the AI in situations where more user control produces superior results. Current users of the advanced stacked sensor cameras from Canon and Sony know these things well, and take advantage of both methods as needs dictate.
This is the exact situation Nikon currently has in the mirrorless marketplace. It has not worked out well for Nikon in reputation, sales, or mirrorless market share. It would be very unfortunate if this continues with the Z9 release. Thom Hogan is expressing his concern that if this turns out to be the case, the market will continue to punish Nikon for it. Rightly so.
There is no way to justify poorer performance in this area by saying one is happy to do it himself without the AI. I still find it enjoyable to shoot manual exposure, manual focus at times, even with advanced cameras like the a1. However, this is about the experience the lenses and process provide. This is in no way an excuse for a system that doesn't implement an advanced AI choice. Ask shooters of cameras from Sony and Canon. The vast majority will tell you that the AI functions are valued and not something they would like to give up and go back to the old way of doing things.
If the Z9 doesn't live up to expectations in this regard, it will get hammered in the press. Some who have been waiting will lose patience and move systems. I think this is the fear that Thom Hogan is expressing. This rise in concern is not happening in a vacuum. He is likely hearing things through his contacts. If so, that would be consistent with some of what I have been hearing.
I really hope that Nikon waits until it get it right to release. ...Show more →
Advanced AI can be used for more automatization, but it can also be used for less automatization. Advanced AI isn't just about automatizing things. You can use the AI for lots of difference capabilities.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Advanced AI can be used for more automatization, but it can also be used for less automatization. Advanced AI isn't just about automatizing things. You can use the AI for lots of difference capabilities.
Yes, but the kind that Thom Hogan spoke about is as I referenced. It has to do with AF. There is AI in other areas of cameras as well, but TH didn't reference those.
After looking at Jared Polin's real-world test of the R3 during a soccer practice, of a skateboarder and a little kid running, I am now convinced that eye focus and 30 frames per second will almost be required for pro sports shooters.
As much as I love the images I am getting from the D6, I am really looking forward to the Z9.
In all honesty, as a working pro, what I saw from the R3 tests has to be taken seriously for Nikon sports photographers and hopes that the Z9 will deliver similar or better performance is even more important.
The possibility of that "near perfect shot" will be so much easier to capture.
The 14 frames per second of the D6 are impressive but in viewing images from sports I shot this week, I am now visualizing double the frames...the difference between football on the fingertips or just before or after.
My enthusiasm for what the Z9 will bring to those of us DSLR holdovers is even greater now after carefully listening and watching Fro's review.
I will view my experience with the D6 as a professional transition...not abandoning a good friend when the Z9 is in my hands.
leewoolery wrote:
After looking at Jared Polin's real-world test of the R3 during a soccer practice, of a skateboarder and a little kid running, I am now convinced that eye focus and 30 frames per second will almost be required for pro sports shooters.
As much as I love the images I am getting from the D6, I am really looking forward to the Z9.
In all honesty, as a working pro, what I saw from the R3 tests has to be taken seriously for Nikon sports photographers and hopes that the Z9 will deliver similar or better performance is even more important.
The possibility of that "near perfect shot" will be so much easier to capture.
The 14 frames per second of the D6 are impressive but in viewing images from sports I shot this week, I am now visualizing double the frames...the difference between football on the fingertips or just before or after.
My enthusiasm for what the Z9 will bring to those of us DSLR holdovers is even greater now after carefully listening and watching Fro's review.
I will view my experience with the D6 as a professional transition...not abandoning a good friend when the Z9 is in my hands....Show more →
Seems like you are getting the point of my previous discussions on the increase of "time resolution" the stacked sensor mirrorless cameras are bringing to the industry. This will have as big an impact on your results as any sensor resolution increases.
Keep in mind that you may also be required to upgrade your lens collection to benefit. The last report I heard on the Z9 was that they were able to get 30 FPS from adapted F mount lenses, but without full AF and AE. However, they thought that this was not due to absolute hardware limitations, but might be able to be solved with a new ATZ adapter, and firmware. I see no chance that the Z9 will get eye control AF like the R3. That would require a hardware rework. Even if they get adapted to 20 FPS with full AF tracking and AE then that will be huge. I am optimistic that Nikon will be able to deliver. The hardware package sounds super fast and solid. It is possible that Z9 may have the fasted sensor scan speed, the highest DR, and lowest noise levels in the industry when the Z9 is released. If the AI and AF is competitive the Z9 will be a huge feather in Nikon's cap, and a compelling platform. That would be huge.
cvrle59 wrote:
I disagreed with you so many times in past, but not this time.
That's exactly how I took on Thom's write up.
Internet is brutal, especially towards Nikon.
Internet can lift you up, but it can press you below ground level, it's the reality.
Nikon has to exceed in every point, to be lifted up, otherwise, it won't be pretty.
I don't want to say it publicly, but this could be their last chance, to prove, they can deliver, and they can compete.
I'm not sure of this. It will set them back further if they don't nail it right, but moving wildlife and sports are niches and the Nikon Z products are hitting the right notes in many other ways. I think Nikon is a bit stuck in the middle of market spaces right now but it will survive. If it disappoints with the Z9, all it will take is a good firmware upgrade for the Z6ii and Z7ii to show it's progress. The lenses are amazing.
It would help if the Z9 blows us all away but a $7000 camera will not be in the hands of most anyway.
These various solutions to focus on more challenging subjects reflect the ability of engineers to extend the ability of autofocus beyond the challenges of solving patterns of the subject viewed in a direct line of sight along the horizontal axis. The AF algorithms in automated modes discern patterns in the lateral plane, and the latest innovations can identify and track a subject moving (even erratically) in the Z plane.
The ingredients of automated Autofocus have been packaged into Nikon flagship and prosumer DSLRs for some years. Auto and 3d-tracking are 2 modes, the one exploits colour patterns to track certain active subjects. A firmware upgrade of the D6 has improved tracking markedly, according to Moose Peterson. Even in poor light.
Nikon's Dynamic Area modes also use an algorithm to track and focus on erratic and/or indiscernible subjects.
Eye recognition is the one refined advance in automated Autofocus, and its stickiness permits tracking moving subjects, given certain conditions. All fine until the algorithm dicombobulates in clutter etc, losing the subject. Apparently this new wunderkid has become the make or break feature as to whether an expensive camera is marvellous or useless - according to internet experts that is. Bear in mind, these AF modes are designed for sports and drama in artificial sets.
Based on experiences with the D5 D6 etc, pros will rate Customization of the Z9 as critical to setup controls enabling quasi-automated switching between settings; these switches at fingertips are vital for action genres, switching AF modes especially. Invariably, one strives to grab images presenting in split second events in narrowest windows of opportunities....
In wildlife photography, Automated AF modes have their role, but only in some moments and situations, obviously with high frame rats to grab a gesture, and MILC is the new solution for such demanding subjects. Some species of fast flying birds are the obvious examples. An automated AF mode may work or it may equally fail utterly eg grabbing sharp eye focus of an animal moving within clutter, eg twigs, leaves, long grass etc.
The Z9 will likely solve most of these challenges with fast moving subjects. Nevertheless, in every genre, there's no substitute for knowing one's subjects intimately. No amount of technology replaces fieldcraft skills. No Automated feature will replace the "Artistic Eye" any time soon.
A lot more does a camera make, including sensor quality in different lighting situations, overall AF performance, including precision. Add Weathersealing, and especially what optics fit the lens mount. These are just some key basic criteria considered by rationale decision makers before paying out many thousands on a pro camera, let alone its lens system.
Oct 04, 2021 at 12:51 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
1bwana1 wrote:
Yes, but the kind that Thom Hogan spoke about is as I referenced. It has to do with AF. There is AI in other areas of cameras as well, but TH didn't reference those.
No I am talking about AI in autofocus. It certainly can be used for automation, but that is not all AI can be used for in autofocus. It can be used for less automation, even. AI does not inevitably lead to automation in AF as your earlier argument seems to suggest and I for one think that is a good thing. I want Nikon to use a lot AI and I think they will, but as Thom was discussing they may not have a lot of automation in the AF system of the Z9--they might have lots of AI, however, and that would be my preference. I doubt that lots of AI without lots of automation will be popular, but I am not that concerned with what is popular.
Steve Spencer wrote:
No I am talking about AI in autofocus. It certainly can be used for automation, but that is not all AI can be used for in autofocus. It can be used for less automation, even. AI does not inevitably lead to automation in AF as your earlier argument seems to suggest and I for one think that is a good thing. I want Nikon to use a lot AI and I think they will, but as Thom was discussing they may not have a lot of automation in the AF system of the Z9--they might have lots of AI, however, and that would be my preference. I doubt that lots of AI without lots of automation will be popular, but I am not that concerned with what is popular....Show more →
To me it seem that AI is used in two place during AF.
First, there is subject selection. AI can be set to select, suggest, or eliminate subjects for AF acquisition. I can see where acquisition can be set to different levels and user involvement in the selection process. But certainly that will never be as fast as fully automated selection. Especially if you can pre-identify subjects types of interest like they are currently doing with Eye AF, Animal AF, Bird AF, Car AF.
Second, once a subject has been selected AI can be used for tracking. This can incorporate predictive movement as Sony claims it is doing using technology gained in its gaming platforms.
I guess you could even figure ways to make AI assist in manual focus confirmation.
Can you please give an example where AI is used in AF that results in less automation?
I think Nikon is very concerned with what is popular. Their business depends on it. I also think TH is concerned that what Nikon implements will be less popular that the competitive products.
I can see the ad campaign now. "Nikon, the best implementation of the least popular technology". not going to sell well.
I think for AF performance, there are at least 2 separate issues here. AI/subject recognition and how quickly the lens will response to the camera. Take Z7 ii, yes, lots of youtubers will say its eye AF is not nearly as good as the competitors but I was rather surprised when I tested it. On subject recognition/eye detection side, Z7 ii is actually incredibly good. Just point your camera at a TV and pick a fast moving scene such as fast fighting scene with lots of camera angle changes where the screen fill half or 2/3 to full body and watch how fast eye detection is. Of course pretty much everything will be in focus on TV screen so AF motor does not have to do anything much but you can see that eye detection is pretty much instantaneous even the scene changes camera angle every 2-3 seconds and the person is moving, rotating, gyrating continuously. ( I personally used a fight scene between the two ladies from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon when I tried this ). Of course in real life when the subject moves around, the AF motor will have to catch up to the subject as well and AF performance would not match what I got tracking TV screen).
I think this is where F mount lens may fall behind Z mount lens. There are 11 pins on Z mount, 10 pins on F mount and most AF-S lenses uses either 7 or 10 pins as far as I know. I heard that some instructions from Z body to F mount lens may be lost and Z mount lens will ultimately be better than F mount lens counterpart AF wise.
It is kind of strange. In a way, Nikon started subject recognition AI a couple of years before Sony. If I remember correctly, D810 has face detection if you use live view mode which I hardly ever used. I guess Nikon did not really do anything much with that as Nikon DSLR is stuck with CDAF in its DSLR until D780 came out.
I heard Nikon went all out with subject recognition/AI AF with Z9. It will be interesting to see the end result. However I mentioned to my friend at Nikon, no matter how many subjects it can recognize, in many camera forums, it seems that bif especially with tiny erratic birds is the hottest subject of discussion, followed by human/sports then everything else is pretty much distant third, fourth etc when we talk about A1/A9, D6, R5 and presumably R3 (may be I also am hanging out in the wrong website and don't see discussion much about AF in other subject matters). Hope Nikon will have their priority straighten out
Oct 04, 2021 at 03:56 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
1bwana1 wrote:
To me it seem that AI is used in two place during AF.
First, there is subject selection. AI can be set to select, suggest, or eliminate subjects for AF acquisition. I can see where acquisition can be set to different levels and user involvement in the selection process. But certainly that will never be as fast as fully automated selection. Especially if you can pre-identify subjects types of interest like they are currently doing with Eye AF, Animal AF, Bird AF, Car AF.
Second, once a subject has been selected AI can be used for tracking. This can incorporate predictive movement as Sony claims it is doing using technology gained in its gaming platforms.
I guess you could even figure ways to make AI assist in manual focus confirmation.
Can you please give an example where AI is used in AF that results in less automation?
I think Nikon is very concerned with what is popular. Their business depends on it. I also think TH is concerned that what Nikon implements will be less popular that the competitive products.
I can see the ad campaign now. "Nikon, the best implementation of the least popular technology". not going to sell well. ...Show more →
It would be simple to use AI for less automation and this has already been done with Sony and other manufacturers. Take eye AF as an example. When companies use different AI algorithms for different targets (mammals, birds, people) and which is used is user selected they are using AI in a way that reduces automation. The user now has to make a choice about what type of AI they are going to use which adds an extra step and is a move away from automation.
Similarly a company could have different tracking modes with different AI for each tracking mode that would be user selectable. This would be a move away from automation based on more sophisticated AI.
The same could be done for subject acquisition. Different AI modes that could be user selected and would be a move away from automation.
You can use AI in a lot of different ways. It doesn't have to be used exclusively for automation in fact it can be used to move away from automation with more operator input in the AF process.
Steve Spencer wrote:
It would be simple to use AI for less automation and this has already been done with Sony and other manufacturers. Take eye AF as an example. When companies use different AI algorithms for different targets (mammals, birds, people) and which is used is user selected they are using AI in a way that reduces automation. The user now has to make a choice about what type of AI they are going to use which adds an extra step and is a move away from automation.
Similarly a company could have different tracking modes with different AI for each tracking mode that would be user selectable. This would be a move away from automation based on more sophisticated AI.
The same could be done for subject acquisition. Different AI modes that could be user selected and would be a move away from automation.
You can use AI in a lot of different ways. It doesn't have to be used exclusively for automation in fact it can be used to move away from automation with more operator input in the AF process....Show more →
Yes this has been done and well received by both Sony and Canon. You can choose your level of AI automation and automation of it. I see no reason that this would be less well accepted in a Nikon camera if executed as well as the others have. I use it extensively.
chambeshi wrote:
Based on experiences with the D5 D6 etc, pros will rate Customization of the Z9 as critical to setup controls enabling quasi-automated switching between settings; these switches at fingertips are vital for action genres, switching AF modes especially. Invariably, one strives to grab images presenting in split second events in narrowest windows of opportunities....
Chambeshi,
I specifically set up my a1 to have the agility to respond to such circumstances just as you suggest. I didn't imagine I would use it so soon. But, last week it proved invaluable on my first travel trip with the camera.
I was at Maroon Lake Colorado shooting a landscape in fully manual mode just after sunset. The worst possible setup for capturing moving wildlife in low light. Suddenly, a White Tail Fox trotted out of the bush moving at a good pace. The customization features in the camera allowed me to completely reconfigure the camera in a fraction of a second and get some great images of this Fox even though the opportunity was very short lived.
I won't post an image, or the full story here in the Nikon forum out of respect for keeping things on topic. But here is a link to the story in another thread you may find interesting.
1bwana1 wrote:
Yes this has been done and well received by both Sony and Canon. You can choose your level of AI automation and automation of it. I see no reason that this would be less well accepted in a Nikon camera if executed as well as the others have. I use it extensively.
The point I think Thom was trying to make was about automation not AI. He seems to think Nikon will use less automation (but says nothing about less AI) than Sony or Canon and he worries this will hurt the adoption of the Z9. I personally would prefer a Z9 with less automation, so it doesn't make me want the camera less, but I share his concern about less automation potentially affecting sales of the camera.
Steve Spencer wrote:
The point I think Thom was trying to make was about automation not AI. He seems to think Nikon will use less automation (but says nothing about less AI) than Sony or Canon and he worries this will hurt the adoption of the Z9. I personally would prefer a Z9 with less automation, so it doesn't make me want the camera less, but I share his concern about less automation potentially affecting sales of the camera.
Well, since the level of automation used is selectable in the competitive cameras, Nikon not even offering the choice of matching levels of automation is in fact a competitive shortcoming. Personal preferences aside, this should be criticized and punished in the marketplace.
In Nikon's existing mirrorless products I don't think it is as much a matter of whether the AI and Automation is missing. It is rather the awkward implementation of it that drives so much criticism. I have read that the next firmware update of the Z6II/Z7II will implement a Real Time Tracking system similar to what Sony and Canon are doing. If this is properly done it will be a huge improvement. My guess is that this update will have it's base in what Nikon is doing with these features in the Z9. That will be a great thing.
1bwana1 wrote:
Well, since the level of automation used is selectable in the competitive cameras, Nikon not even offering the choice of matching levels of automation is in fact a competitive shortcoming. Personal preferences aside, this should be criticized and punished in the marketplace.
In Nikon's existing mirrorless products I don't think it is as much a matter of whether the AI and Automation is missing. It is rather the awkward implementation of it that drives so much criticism. I have read that the next firmware update of the Z6II/Z7II will implement a Real Time Tracking system similar to what Sony and Canon are doing. If this is properly done it will be a huge improvement. My guess is that this update will have it's base in what Nikon is doing with these features in the Z9. That will be a great thing. ...Show more →
Yes, but so should excessive built-in automation that can't be overridden and I suspect that Nikon will have less of automation that takes over and can't be controlled. Thom was suggesting that Nikon will have less fully automated modes, but also less automation that can't be overridden. Camera makers can error in either direction, as an example eye AF that makes it hard to override the camera's default choice of which eye to focus on is excessive automation and if that can't be easily overridden then that too is a flaw. Thom's point, which is counter to my person preferences, is that people often are willing to settle for excessive automation but are less tolerant of less automation being built in. I think the Z9 will have little excessive automation, but may not have as much automation built-in. I am fine with that trade off, but I am not sure that the trade off won't hurt them in the marketplace.
). Of course in real life when the subject moves around, the AF motor will have to catch up to the subject as well and AF performance would not match what I got tracking TV screen).