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Archive 2021 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

bernardl
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p.6 #1 · p.6 #1 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

Desmolicious wrote:
Not remotely. The best lens is a lens that you will use. The best lens is the lens that gives incredible results in actual use not in theory on a test bench.
This is a fantastic lens for hobbyists who are not under any time deadlines to deliver. Who have the luxury to focus bracket each shot then pick out the one that is in focus and post it for likes.

In case that wasn’t clear I was speaking of optical quality, not about other aspects.

But I think you knew this already. It very much feels like your opinion about this lens is set in stone and completely unrelated to its actual performance. In essence you don’t think MF lenses make sense in 2022.

More generally speaking if I check my favourite photographs captured by the great masters these past 30 years a large majority of them were taken with manual focus or could have been taken with MF. So I don’t believe that the link you establish btwn AF and “serious” photography captures the essence of what good photography is.

Jan 17, 2022 at 05:10 PM

Joseph.
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p.6 #2 · p.6 #2 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

Wow, so many haters. I lived through the AF-D screwdriver lens era when all we had were the super expensive 28 1.4D and the 85 1.4D. I remember everyone was complaining that Nikon just wasn't innovating fast enough. People were dreaming about the time when Nikon used to make exotic AI-S glass "just because they can". Fast forward to 2022 and Nikon is doing exactly that, and people still complain

Unreal. It's a great time to be ANY system shooter right now. Let's just enjoy it while we can.

Jan 17, 2022 at 07:50 PM

SiMuMe
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p.6 #3 · p.6 #3 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

Desmolicious wrote:
Not remotely. The best lens is a lens that you will use. The best lens is the lens that gives incredible results in actual use not in theory on a test bench.
This is a fantastic lens for hobbyists who are not under any time deadlines to deliver. Who have the luxury to focus bracket each shot then pick out the one that is in focus and post it for likes.

Reading your comments in this thread I've had to do a double-take if you're the same poster that I have known for so long to shoot predominantly manual focus lenses on mostly film cameras. If you'd allow me to "put thoughts in your mind", seeing as IRL you're such a fan of everything manual, is Nikon's sin here that this is not an F-mount lens?

I find it grossly unfair to reduce people's love for and use of this lens to being for "likes".

The original Noct's magic is mostly lost on me considering what price it is being offered for these days. I have just no desire for it, but do appreciate why it is held in such high regard by those who had either the privilege of owning it when it was the only game in town, OR desired owning it when the budget allowed. I'm in the latter group regarding the 0.95.

The 50mm f/1.2 seems nice enough, and what it offers at just 26% of the 0.95 asking price here makes it seem like an absolute bargain in comparison, but it's still a 50mm. Shrug.

Jan 17, 2022 at 08:05 PM

Desmolicious
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p.6 #4 · p.6 #4 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

SiMuMe wrote:
Reading your comments in this thread I've had to do a double-take if you're the same poster that I have known for so long to shoot predominantly manual focus lenses on mostly film cameras. If you'd allow me to "put thoughts in your mind", seeing as IRL you're such a fan of everything manual, is Nikon's sin here that this is not an F-mount lens?

There is a big difference. The manual lenses were part of the complete manual system. There was no autofocus - this stuff was as good as it got back then. And there are no AF rangefinder cameras. Before anyone claims the Contax G series was - it wasn't. It is just a really fancy interchangeable lens P&S camera - the give away is when you try to focus manually with it..

The Z system is the greatest state of the art photography system that Nikon has ever released. This is cutting edge stuff. To do all that, and then fail at making their statement lens an AF lens is just a bad look.

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/the-monster-nikon-z-58mm-f095-s-noct-could-have-been-even-bigger

The last sentence:

"We want to entrust future generations with the failure to do things this time as future dreams," said Fujiwara.

Jan 17, 2022 at 10:15 PM

Desmolicious
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p.6 #5 · p.6 #5 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

SiMuMe wrote
I find it grossly unfair to reduce people's love for and use of this lens to being for "likes".

You are correct, I apologize for that.

That was rude of me.

Jan 17, 2022 at 10:28 PM

Lance B
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p.6 #6 · p.6 #6 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

Desmolicious wrote:
There is a big difference. The manual lenses were part of the complete manual system. There was no autofocus - this stuff was as good as it got back then. And there are no AF rangefinder cameras. Before anyone claims the Contax G series was - it wasn't. It is just a really fancy interchangeable lens P&S camera - the give away is when you try to focus manually with it..

The Z system is the greatest state of the art photography system that Nikon has ever released. This is cutting edge stuff. To do all that, and then fail at...Show more →

But in that same article:

"The Noct is, famously, a manual focus lens. And while it is certainly a challenge to nail precise focus – especially when shooting with the razor-thin depth of field at an f/0.95 aperture – the alternative was adding an autofocus mechanism that may have been unfeasibly big, unfeasibly slow and unfeasibly expensive."

Makoto Fujiwara, a Nikon team designer said: "the increase in size is far beyond imagination. It cannot be driven by the existing ultrasonic motor, and a larger actuator must be arranged outside the lens."

Also, there were other AF limitations if you read the whole article. This is ecaxtly what I have been referring to all along.

So, a lens already denegrated by quite a few for being oversized, heavy and costly would have been even more lambasted at being bigger, heavier and costlier than it already is!

Jan 17, 2022 at 10:32 PM

Desmolicious
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p.6 #7 · p.6 #7 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

Lance B wrote:
But in that same article:

"The Noct is, famously, a manual focus lens. And while it is certainly a challenge to nail precise focus – especially when shooting with the razor-thin depth of field at an f/0.95 aperture – the alternative was adding an autofocus mechanism that may have been unfeasibly big, unfeasibly slow and unfeasibly expensive."

Makoto Fujiwara, a Nikon team designer said: "the increase in size is far beyond imagination. It cannot be driven by the existing ultrasonic motor, and a larger actuator must be arranged outside the lens."

Also, there were other AF limitations if you read the whole...Show more →

Yes because they weren't able to figure it out, but wished they could. There are always limitations until the next advancement in tech. Fujiwara admitted that they did not have the ability with the tech that they currently have.

The glass half full view is that this is an amazing lens given their current resources.
The glass half empty view is that this is an amazing lens ham strung by their current resources.

Jan 17, 2022 at 10:39 PM

bernardl
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p.6 #8 · p.6 #8 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

Since nobody else has done better I am glad that they took the decision to release this lens instead of giving up on the grounds that it couldn’t be done with AF while meeting their image quality and weight/size targets. Sure in the limits of their tech but they are obviously one of the most competent lens designer there is and they also produce their own glass (they even supply Sony). And all that happened 4+ years ago.

I am glad they did so for the photographers who see the value instead of not doing it because of the photographers who don’t.

Jan 17, 2022 at 10:59 PM

Lance B
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p.6 #9 · p.6 #9 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

Desmolicious wrote:
Yes because they weren't able to figure it out, but wished they could. There are always limitations until the next advancement in tech. Fujiwara admitted that they did not have the ability with the tech that they currently have.

The glass half full view is that this is an amazing lens given their current resources.
The glass half empty view is that this is an amazing lens ham strung by their current resources.

The thing is, there are no lens makers that have a monopoly on lens design, especially in this day of computer run lens design, it is all there for them all to make great lenses. In this case it is a case of what compromises are best met for the outcome that Nikon required. In future, there may be glas that is available that is not available now, but Nikon would have access to those new glasses as they would have access to the best glass available now. So, Fujiwara's admission has nothing to do with Nikon's lack of technical ability to add AF to this behemoth lens, but that *nobody* has the tech available at this current time in the way that this lens was supposed to deliver the IQ they required. But you say that Nikon missed an opportunity: "To do all that, and then fail at making their statement lens an AF lens is just a bad look." They can't do what they can't do so it can't be a missed opportunity if it is not a currently doable thing. Nobody could - and again, I stress with the desired IQ outcome they were after.

Jan 18, 2022 at 02:25 AM

Sauseschritt
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p.6 #10 · p.6 #10 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

Lance B wrote:
The thing is, there are no lens makers that have a monopoly on lens design, especially in this day of computer run lens design, it is all there for them all to make great lenses.

OUCH !

Nope, sorry.

Not even close.

If that was the case, why doesnt just everybody produce amazing lenses ?

Thats because even a simple six element lens is already far beyond the ability to brute force all possible parameters in the computer.

Computers have been around since ages and they have not helped making lens design magically easy all of a sudden.

You still have to actually build prototypes and look at the actual images they produce to hopefully get a great lens in the end.

And, to cite Leica: every lens designer has a different idea what image quality even is.

Which is why some lens designers, such as Mandler, are even famous of sorts.

Jan 18, 2022 at 02:40 AM

bernardl
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p.6 #11 · p.6 #11 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

And, to cite Leica: every lens designer has a different idea what image quality even is.

This is a very important point.

I gave up on Sony mostly because I found the way their GM lenses, although they are technically excellent, draw lifeless and flat. At least until the 50mm f1.2 that seems a lot more Nikon like in its rendering.

This doesn't say anything negative about Sony, it just means that what they targeted in terms of image quality - and am sure achieved - doesn't match what I find to be pleasant.

Cheers,
Bernard

Edited on Jan 18, 2022 at 07:17 AM · View previous versions

Jan 18, 2022 at 04:42 AM

akul
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p.6 #12 · p.6 #12 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

Desmolicious wrote:
https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/the-monster-nikon-z-58mm-f095-s-noct-could-have-been-even-bigger

The last sentence:

"We want to entrust future generations with the failure to do things this time as future dreams," said Fujiwara.

You are relying too much on the ‘words’ on the translation. There was no use of the word ‘failure’ in the original interview.

In the original interview from dcwatch .

https://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/interview/1240053.html

“ 藤原：今回できなかったことは、将来の夢として、後進に託したいと思います”

“I would like to leave what we could not do (achieve) this time as a dream for the future generation.”

I am sure it would not change your perspective, but what is not accurate about your translation source is that they never said it was a failure. Fujiwara explained the rationale of how Nikon reached the decision to make Noct as a manual focus lens, and that is all.

Luka

Jan 18, 2022 at 06:25 AM

2of9
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p.6 #13 · p.6 #13 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

The Noct is a niche lens for the niche user. Nikon understood their market for those purchasing this lens. Didn't this lens sell out when it was first released? So, there's definitely a market for it.

The lens is the Lexus LFA of Nikon lenses. Nikon could create something very neat and they did it with the Noct 58. Having it MF or AF, it's really up to the end user to decide what they want to create. It's neither good or bad, no wrong answers, it's just something the buyer of the NOCT has to consider. Using the 50 1.2S for a week, I loved it. If I had the chance to own a NOCT, of course I would. You wouldn't say no to a Lexus LFA if Lexus decided to give you one, right? haha.

I would love to own one. Adult me says "no, stop it. get help". Kid me says "DO IT...NOW!" But we all have our priorities

I'm 100% renting one this year. It looks like a brutally amazing lens. I'm not surprised that we're not seeing too many posts on here NOCT users but there are some. Just like how you will see a Lexus LFA pop up once in a while at your local exotic car show/event.

Jan 18, 2022 at 02:34 PM

Desmolicious
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p.6 #14 · p.6 #14 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

2of9 wrote:
The Noct is a niche lens for the niche user. Nikon understood their market for those purchasing this lens. Didn't this lens sell out when it was first released? So, there's definitely a market for it.

The lens is the Lexus LFA of Nikon lenses. Nikon could create something very neat and they did it with the Noct 58. Having it MF or AF, it's really up to the end user to decide what they want to create. It's neither good or bad, no wrong answers, it's just something the buyer of the NOCT has to consider. Using the 50...Show more →

Just had an LFA drive by me recently. Man that thing sounds insane!

Edited on Jan 18, 2022 at 03:05 PM · View previous versions

Jan 18, 2022 at 02:40 PM

Desmolicious
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p.6 #15 · p.6 #15 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

bernardl wrote:
More generally speaking if I check my favourite photographs captured by the great masters these past 30 years a large majority of them were taken with manual focus or could have been taken with MF. So I don’t believe that the link you establish btwn AF and “serious” photography captures the essence of what good photography is.

Please share a link to some of those photos. And we can then see what apertures were used, which we could use to extrapolate the relevance of this lens .

Example and one of the most obvious - Afghan Girl by McCurry. Shot with a 105 2.5 lens. Actually a tiny lens. The end result we are all familiar with.
Do we look at that pic and think - man it would have been better if only one eyelash was in focus?

You think a working photog on assignment would have packed a 58mm manual focus lens the size of an econo-car to capture an image?

All the memorable photos of the great masters are memorable because they tell a story. Not because the DOF was 0.01mm.

Jan 18, 2022 at 02:45 PM

Lance B
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p.6 #16 · p.6 #16 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

Sauseschritt wrote:
OUCH !

Nope, sorry.

Not even close.

If that was the case, why doesnt just everybody produce amazing lenses ?

Thats because even a simple six element lens is already far beyond the ability to brute force all possible parameters in the computer.

Computers have been around since ages and they have not helped making lens design magically easy all of a sudden.

You still have to actually build prototypes and look at the actual images they produce to hopefully get a great lens in the end.

And, to cite Leica: every lens designer has a different idea what image quality even is.

Which is why some lens...Show more →

Nope, not even close. It's because Canon, Sony, Nikon, Tamron etc are making lenses to a specific target - price, size, weight and "look" etc.

Jan 18, 2022 at 05:15 PM

tvviewer
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p.6 #17 · p.6 #17 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

Were you focusing on the eyes in these images? Can you say what the aperture you were using to make these images? Thanks for posting!

Jan 18, 2022 at 07:00 PM

bernardl
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p.6 #18 · p.6 #18 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

Desmolicious wrote:
Please share a link to some of those photos. And we can then see what apertures were used, which we could use to extrapolate the relevance of this lens .

Example and one of the most obvious - Afghan Girl by McCurry. Shot with a 105 2.5 lens. Actually a tiny lens. The end result we are all familiar with.
Do we look at that pic and think - man it would have been better if only one eyelash was in focus?

You think a working photog on assignment would have packed a 58mm manual focus lens the size of an econo-car...Show more →

I never claimed that these images were captured at f0.95, you are changing the point of the discussion. And since f0.95 lenses were not available at the time it's totally obvious that none of these photographs were captured at such wide apertures.

I claimed that MF is a credible solution for many award winning photographs.

Cheers,
Bernard

Jan 18, 2022 at 07:05 PM

Desmolicious
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p.6 #19 · p.6 #19 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

bernardl wrote:
I never claimed that these images were captured at f0.95, you are changing the point of the discussion. And since f0.95 lenses were not available at the time it's totally obvious that none of these photographs were captured at such wide apertures.

I claimed that MF is a credible solution for many award winning photographs.

Cheers,
Bernard

I totally agree. But this just takes me back to the point that none of those photos that you so admire would have benefited from this lens, and even if this lens was available at that time for film use, none of those photographers would have even considered it because they would not have used it at .95, and would not want to have lugged it around.

There is one aspect of photography - that I have no experience in - that perhaps would be perfect for this lens. And that is astro photography. That is the scenario where you can take your time, use a tripod, and just set up everything perfectly and where the performance at .95 would (?) be very useful. Hence the origination of the name Noct.
I am actually surprised that no-one on FM has demonstrated this usage, or did I miss those pics?

Jan 18, 2022 at 07:20 PM

1bwana1
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p.6 #20 · p.6 #20 · Noct 0.95 Thread?

I shoot a Sony a1 which is one of the leading AF cameras currently available. Still, I take great joy at times, and in certain circumstances, shooting my manual focus Voigtlander lenses. They provide an imaging experience, and a rendering that I very much enjoy. To say that the unique and exceptional Nikon 58mm f/0.95 lens is somehow a failure because it is MF just doesn't make sense to me. To me, it is a valid choice in both lens design, and as a lens purchase.

Jan 18, 2022 at 07:23 PM

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