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Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review

  
 
Ripolini
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p.53 #1 · p.53 #1 · Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review




Nikon Z6 w/CV Z 35/2 AL @ f/4, 1/40 s, 2500 ISO




Nikon Z6 w/CV Z 35/2 AL @ f/2.8, 1/40 s, 6400 ISO



Jul 14, 2024 at 03:16 AM
philip_pj
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p.53 #2 · p.53 #2 · Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review


CV 35/2 APO (E) - Some fine churches in Launceston, Van Diemen's Land. Tasmania (from Abel Tasman) was called this from its discovery by the Dutch in 1642 until 1855. The British then changed its name due to the horrors associated with the penal settlements in the island, to which some 73,000 persons were transported. The sea journey took 100 days or so, in the early 1800s.




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Jul 14, 2024 at 06:30 PM
Vento
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p.53 #3 · p.53 #3 · Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review


A few recent pictures with the 35/2 AL-Z.
Most of them I already posted in the Nikon/Voigtlander image thread.
Since this thread is probably the most obvious and comprehensive thread/place to go for those interested, I will post them here again.
The fairground pictures were taken with a 1/4 Tiffen Black Pro-Mist filter (cinebloom effect).

Autoscooter by Vento, auf Flickr

AutoScooter by Vento, auf Flickr

Ferris Wheel by Vento, auf Flickr

Brezel-Snacks by Vento, auf Flickr

Disco Swing by Vento, auf Flickr

Playball by Vento, auf Flickr

Ferris Wheel blue hour by Vento, auf Flickr


Catch the Rainbow! by Vento, auf Flickr

Hülshoff Castle by Vento, auf Flickr

Hülshoff Castle by Vento, auf Flickr




Jul 20, 2024 at 08:33 PM
OffTrail
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p.53 #4 · p.53 #4 · Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review


Has anyone compared the VM and Z versions on a Z body?

I had the Z version and of course it was exceptional. I ended up moving it along since my 40 Nokton was (and still is) glued to the Zf, but I would like to pick up the VM version so I can share it between the M2 and Zf. What kind of performance difference should I expect with the VM version in front of a Z sensor?



Jul 20, 2024 at 11:46 PM
Ripolini
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p.53 #5 · p.53 #5 · Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review


OffTrail wrote:
Has anyone compared the VM and Z versions on a Z body?


@Fred Miranda@ tried it on Sony A7R IV and concluded: "The Voigtlander 35mm and 50mm f/2 APO VM lenses do not fare well on the Sony, although do improve when stopping down. However, they never achieve the performance they were designed for even at very small apertures."
Now, if we consider than the Nikon sensor stack is thicker than Leica's and only slightly thinner than Sony's, I think it's reasonable to infer that the VM version should not perform optimally when mounted in front of a Z sensor.
See https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1695782/16#15580664



Jul 21, 2024 at 02:29 AM
Vento
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p.53 #6 · p.53 #6 · Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review


There is a very informative article on the topic with the different filter stacks and their effects from phillipreeve.net.
Identical performance will probably not be achieved, but the results with Nikon Z are significantly better than with Sony E-mount when it comes to adapting M-mount lenses.
For this, you probably need a mod, like the Kolari version, or an M-body directly.
Nevertheless, a Nikon Z-body, at least with the filter stack of the Z6 tested there, is probably by far the best basis for adapting M-mount lenses after a native M-body and/or a filter stack modification such as the Kolari Mod.
The performance losses are therefore not even remotely comparable to the Sony A7III body tested there, whose filter stack reveals considerably more flaws when adapting M-mount lenses.
Several Voigtlander VM-mount lenses were compared with the different cameras/filter stacks.
The Nikon Z6 looks much better and it also depends on the lens.


Different Filter Stacks and what they mean for us: Sony E | Nikon Z | Leica M | Kolari UT

https://phillipreeve.net/blog/different-filter-stacks-and-what-they-mean-for-us-sony-e-nikon-z-leica-m-kolari-ut/

For lazy readers, here's the summary:

Conclusion

"When the first Sony fullframe E-mount cameras hit the market, one groundbreaking feature was, that you could adapt all kind of legacy lenses to them. It was also the first time, the compact fullframe M-mount lenses could be used on a significantly more affordable camera.
At that time most people weren’t aware of filter stack differences.
With today’s high performance lenses with short register distance it actually makes a notable difference for what filter stack they have originally been designed for though – at least when it comes to wide angle lenses.
The compact M-mount lenses work best on a Leica M10 or a Kolari UT modded camera.
In terms of color cast the Kolari modded cameras actually perform better than all the Leica M cameras that came before the M11.
When it comes to Nikon’s Z-mount cameras there were a lot of rumors regarding their filter stack thickness and how well they work with M-mount wide angle lenses. I don’t like rumors, I like facts, so I decided to check for myself.
And what we found out here is, that they may not work as well with these M-mount wide angle lenses as a Leica M or Kolari modded camera, but in many cases they come very close.
And they play much better with these lenses than stock Sony E-mount cameras.
When using native E-mount wide angle lenses on a Kolari UT modded camera they show a similar degradation in image quality in the corners as M-mount wide angle lenses do when used on a stock Sony camera – physics work in both ways.
You can already find some comparisons showing this here.
If you are looking for a camera to adapt legacy lenses to in 2024, you should definitely have a closer look at Nikon’s Z-mount cameras.
But not only legacy lenses, also Sony’s E-mount lenses can be adapted to those Z-mount cameras with surprisingly well working AF, making them the most versatile fullframe cameras you can find today."




Edited on Jul 21, 2024 at 03:11 AM · View previous versions



Jul 21, 2024 at 02:46 AM
Ripolini
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p.53 #7 · p.53 #7 · Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review


The images in phillipreeve.net blog confirm my hypothesis, i.e., VM versions do not perform optimally in front of a Z sensor


Jul 21, 2024 at 02:59 AM
Vento
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p.53 #8 · p.53 #8 · Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review


No, however, the characteristics depend on the lens, focal length (wide angle/super wide angle are most problematic) and usually only affect the outer edge areas.
Either way, Nikon Z is probably still the best option for adapting M-mount lenses, unless you are prepared to invest in a filter stack mod, such as the Kolari UT Mod.
In any case, the results with the Nikon Z6 are much better than with the Sony A7III.
So if you want to go two-pronged, then a Nikon Z is clearly the best choice for adapting M-mount lenses.
Of course, a modification would be ideal, but then you'd be shutting yourself off from the native Z lenses and could just as well go out with your M-body.



Jul 21, 2024 at 03:08 AM
Ripolini
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p.53 #9 · p.53 #9 · Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review


I've written "VM versions do not perform optimally in front of a Z sensor". This means that they do not perform as tweaked Z-mount versions. In other words, some image degradation is introduced by the different sensor stack thickness. The images in phillipreeve.net blog show that the slightly thinner Nikon sensor does not deteriorate the image of VM version as with Sony sensor and Z bodies are preferable insofar as adapting lenses is concerned. This does not contradict my reasoning. So my initial hypothesis is correct.
Of course, we (all) know that focal length, exit pupil distance etc. are important and therefore wideangles are more affected (see https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/07/sensor-stack-thickness-part-iii-the-summary/) than, say, the 75/1.5 VM.
Actually, i) the VM 35/2 AL was not compared in the link you gave at phillipreeve.net (so, there are no "data" there), ii) it is a moderate wide-angle lens, and iii) consequently, it should show some image degradation at the borders/corners when used on Z bodies. How much is this degradation important to @OffTrail@? I have no idea.
The 35/2 AL is a tack sharp lens with even performance and negligible CAs at the wider apertures. People buying it do prefer it to other options for this reason. I wouldn't adapt the VM version to Z.



Jul 21, 2024 at 03:33 AM
Vento
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p.53 #10 · p.53 #10 · Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review


I think that depends very much on the usage.
If you mainly use it for the mount for which it was designed, then I don't see a problem.
The user was specifically talking about dual use and it can make sense there as long as it is mainly used in the M-mount.

In all other cases I would agree, it makes no sense to use the VM version extensively with a Nikon Z-body and counteracts the actual approach with an Apo-Lanthar, a lens that is as optimally optically corrected as possible and is optimized for high performance up to the outer edges already wide open.
It would be unwise to throw away this level of performance, for which one buys an Apo Lanthar, due to suboptimal filter stacks.
But when it comes to dual mount use and the M-mount has the overweight in use, I would have absolutely no problem adapting the VM version of a 35/2 Apo Lanthar to my Nikon Z body if necessary.



Jul 21, 2024 at 08:11 AM
 


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Ripolini
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p.53 #11 · p.53 #11 · Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review


Vento wrote:
It would be unwise to throw away this level of performance, for which one buys an Apo Lanthar, due to suboptimal filter stacks.
But when it comes to dual mount use and the M-mount has the overweight in use, I would have absolutely no problem adapting the VM version of a 35/2 Apo Lanthar to my Nikon Z body if necessary.


Let me remind that the Leica body is a film camera (M2). I would probably prefer using a 40/1.2 Nokton on the film camera.

OffTrail wrote:
... I would like to pick up the VM version so I can share it between the M2 and Zf.




Jul 21, 2024 at 11:47 AM
Vento
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p.53 #12 · p.53 #12 · Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review


That's right though, I hadn't even noticed.
The last one I was familiar with was the M6, but it was still analog.
But it was never my price category, so Leica is outside my radar.
This certainly raises the question of whether it makes sense to buy one.
I would only do it if the main use is on the M-mount, then it's a super-compact addition that you can also use with the ZF.



Jul 21, 2024 at 11:53 AM
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p.53 #13 · p.53 #13 · Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review


@Vento@ and @Ripolini@, very much appreciate the links and discussion!

To clarify a bit, the biggest stand-out features for me with the Z APO were the color quality and the rendering from near to mid distances. While the performance out to the corners was valuable often enough, it wasn't what I'd call critical for my more frequent needs. I don't necessarily miss having perfect corners, but I do miss the overall look that I got from the 35 APO.

And indeed, the main use will be film. To your point Ripolini, I do use the 40 Nokton on the M2 often and it's a wonderful lens. It was actually a big reason why I got the M2 in the first place, as I had it on digital but just needed to get it in front of some film as well. It's the same story with the APO. I really liked it on digital, but itching to get it in front of some film where I do think it's strengths and nuances will carry through with finer grained C41 and E6 films. I just wasn't too sure how much would be compromised by adapting it to the Z, but after looking at Fred and BastianK's images, I'm reasonably confident that the compromises will be minor for less frequent use on the Zf.



Jul 21, 2024 at 01:27 PM
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p.53 #14 · p.53 #14 · Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review


Exactness and real world usage matter greatly in this discussion. It's understandable there are (often unconscious) tendencies to boost the appeal of Nikon's entrants, and blanket statements conceal both nuance and misguide the unfortunate reader who knows no better. But study design matters most of all.

A few examples:

'We also see that there is a big difference between the performance on a stock Sony A7III and a stock Nikon Z6 – with the latter being a much better choice for adapting M-mount lenses.'

This one comes (inter alia) from comparisons of two wide angle lenses with very fast apertures (21/1.4 and 35/1.2) and the fastest lens Cosina markets for full frame - the 50/1. The scene used for forensic examination is not only atypical of the intended usage of each lens, it is very unlikely to be helpful in any potential buyer's mind.

The focus point (in the very hazy air) appears to be around 100 metres distant - it's hard to know because *full images at each FL are not provided*. Quite the oversight, to me at least. Few people want to post small crops on their wall, or website or phone for that matter. I can honestly say this is a photograph I would never take, nor would I ever use the lenses tested for this image. I'd rather see something more typical of what I would take.

This visioning habit is known as 'not seeing the forest for the trees', quite literally in this case. Images from high end cameras/lenses are pictorial products, not starting points to be concealed as you seek out 2% of their full form, way off there in the far corners.

A further matter is that such images have to be taken at a distance to judge focal plane performance and, the intention here, deterioration in its clarity. Infinity tests are limited to other similar shots, yet so many images (a very high percentage) are taken at focus distances much closer to the camera. Much of the corner issues of VM lenses gets obscured by focus fade and bokeh, of course - and it's why one buys an f1/f1.2/f1.5 lens!




Jul 21, 2024 at 05:45 PM
philip_pj
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p.53 #15 · p.53 #15 · Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review


Another issue is the choice of lenses. Not only are each (apart from arguably the 15mm, but what is the foreground detail here?) mismatched due to design intent, they are cherry-picked. Cosina market in VM form a 21/3.5, any of a handful of recent VM 28-35s and plenty of other 50mm lenses that might have more insightfully have been used. That would have been useful, but may not have made the predetermined case so well.

The lens choice rationale is pretty clear, that the maximum effect may come only from super fast high performance lenses, and that is why they were picked: 'all high performance lenses that perform very well on the filter stack they have been designed for from their maximum aperture, which means they *should be able to reveal those differences*.' So this: 'what they mean for *us*' clearly does not apply, unless you are one of the very few who seeks out the fastest aperture lenses available, for its own sake, and inspect the corner for your usage pattern.

And why wouldn't you want to provide a fair and balanced assessment of the issue, by using a different set of lenses and outlining the usage in which they work and don't work? It's the reason I post 1500 x 1000 pixel images - so viewers can see the qualities and regions of the image and (most important) the pictorial qualities, for themselves.

Many Sony users employ VM lenses on their Sonys for many reasons, and most of them can be assumed to know exactly what they have in mind when they buy in. Many do not even use an M camera. Many have no good reason to buy a Nikon. They may have many E-mount lenses. All kinds of personal reasons.

As an example of the suggested approach, if you were considering the new 50/2.2 Voigtlander (a VM lens) for a Sony, you would be more interested in vastly different forms of photography than those informed by far corner crops of 100m distant subject matter. It might account for 0.5% of your usage. See the samples on the cumulative pages.

I'd rather see more helpful written material for real world users.

BTW, Fred had this to say, in passing, when reviewing the 75/1.5:

'In my view, it's another lens that can be used for both systems. I'm using: CV 12/5.6, CV 21/3.5, CV 35/1.2 III, CV 50/3.5 and CV 75/1.5 on both Sony and Leica.'

I have two from this list, and agree with this opinion. And something I still remember from Zeiss at the dawn of mirrorless: the threshold for decent performance of M lenses on Sonys is 50mm. But they did not foresee someone choosing a ultra fast lens with sales of perhaps 0.5% of lenses of that focal length, just to prove a point.

In fact, the choice of going to such an extreme as to cherry-pick these lenses may indicate the sensor mismatch issue is not so large a deal for many photographers' usage. But you will never know, will you?

https://phillipreeve.net/blog/different-filter-stacks-and-what-they-mean-for-us-sony-e-nikon-z-leica-m-kolari-ut/



Jul 21, 2024 at 05:45 PM
philip_pj
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p.53 #16 · p.53 #16 · Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review


The 35mm is very much like the 50mm but with a more versatile angle of view. I've used them together long enough to see very small differences, related largely to the degree of focus fade from the focal plane.

For landscape work, every time I see the 35mm output I long for a 28mm version. That would be something. In fact, I wish they had made a 28 APO rather than the 50 APO. Cosina turn out high end 50s like loaves of bread in a bakery, and all have something to offer.

Another good reason why this unmet need for a 28mm is irksome is that the 35/2 APO has fairly heavy focus breathing. And being a landscape oriented 35mm, it spends more time with its focal plane closer to the camera than the 50mm would in similar circumstances.

50mm lenses demand a more stand off focus methodology and/or smaller apertures, if you want deep DOF.
And we don't want to waste that APO excellence with diffraction any more than we have to, do we? You lose 15% stopping down from f5.6 to f8, and a further 17% using f11 (50/2 APO data).

So the 35mm focused at rather typical distances of 3-4m is giving you an estimated true 37-38mm. In a similar design, a 28/2 APO breathing to the same extent and in the same direction would give us around 30mm. Most 28mm lenses also breath narrower as you focus closer.

YT title:
Voigtländer 35mm f/2 APO Lanthar - surprising quality? Lens review with samples

That 30mm FL would keep it away from the onset of wide-angle-itis - the clearly visible reshaping of spatial relationships that some love. But I'm not a fan at the transition point of 25mm or so, where lenses feel like they are neither Arthur nor Martha. Anyway, Cosina veered away from making new Sony lenses some years back. Now they want to throw you a few fast ex-VMs every so often, it seems. Throw the dog a bone! Wrong bone..



Jul 22, 2024 at 05:41 PM
philip_pj
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p.53 #17 · p.53 #17 · Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review


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Jul 22, 2024 at 11:52 PM
RoamingScott
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p.53 #18 · p.53 #18 · Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review


The many samples on this thread got me to pick up the Z version as it was recently discontinued...it was on my "someday" list, but managed to grab one from the last restock in the US. Glad I did, it's a great lens. It has such a unique rendering compared to my native Z Nikon glass and is a great compliment to the ZF. A few first week shots.






































Jul 23, 2024 at 10:15 AM
RoamingScott
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p.53 #19 · p.53 #19 · Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review


Driveabout, ZF and Z 35 APO




















Jul 27, 2024 at 09:03 PM
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p.53 #20 · p.53 #20 · Voigtlander 35mm f/2 APO-Lanthar Review


Alma mater wandering, ZF and Z 35 APO






































Jul 29, 2024 at 09:36 PM
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