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Archive 2021 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual

  
 
speedmaster20d
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p.5 #1 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


dclark wrote:
I don't see how you calculate 270. If the display changes from 1536x2048 to 1200x1600, the border with be (1536-1200)/2=168 pixels at the top and bottom, and (2048-1600)/2=224 pixels on the left and right.

I agree that the display is digitally zoomed not optically zoomed to change the magnification from 0.9 to 0.7. So I still don't see how to explain the results for the High Display Quality at 0.7 magnification, and the 240/sec mode which is also at 0.7 magnification. When the magnification is 0.7 the available OLED display is reduced to 1200x1600.


224 is correct my bad 270 was a typo.

the physical resolution of the OLED panel, i.e. number of pixels never changes it is always 1536 x 2048 x 3. what changes is the image resolution fed into the display. When the image resolution is lower than physical resolution some pixels will be showing the same data this reduces the bandwidth burden on the SoC which appears to be around 190 Mpixel/sec. this is the same as setting your monitor to a lower resolution than it is capable of.

Sony's spec's are somewhat vague but my reading is that in normal mode the image sent to the finder is 2048 pixels wide, with 0.7 mag selected, some of the image is the black border. In Hi mode the image sent is 1600 pixels wide. in Hi+ mode the image sent is also 1600 pixels wide but includes the black borders that do not refresh from frame to frame thus allowing for the center region to be refreshed at 240Hz.

hope this helps



Apr 09, 2021 at 11:38 AM
Holger
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p.5 #2 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


dclark wrote:
A few days ago I was shooting some test shots with the A1 and noticed that the EVF display of fabric on a patio chair started showing aliasing when I was focusing. That can be an indication that the camera has reduced EVF resolution so I decided to make some measurements.

There have been lots of reports that the EVF resolution changed when focusing, including some in this thread. There have been claims and speculations that when focusing the resolution of the EVF can drop below the "Standard" resolution (i.e. the lowest specified EVF resolution).

To see if the EVF resolution
...Show more

Yesterday when looking through the EVF (with 35GM at f1.4) I could see the resolution drop during the _day_ (quality high, AFC).
However, in the evening indoors when going to higher ISOs, I don't see it. Here the resolution stays high and doesn't drop in AFC even at f1.4.
Just wondered whether you observed something similar in your testing?

Edit:
Just went out and here I can see resolution drops. Going back indoors, rising iso to 1000 and the resolution doesn't drop but stays high. Interesting.



Apr 23, 2021 at 12:34 PM
wordfool
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p.5 #3 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


I received my A1 yesterday and have already noticed this EVF "feature". In many situations it looks like the EVF image just gets much noisier with a half press of the shutter button until focus is confirmed and sometimes until slightly after that, almost like someone had increased the ISO of an image momentarily from 100 to 6400.

Not really noticeable if the background is busy, but very noticeable if there's a plain background with shadow. However, on my list of minor annoyances as I get to know the A1, this is only about mid-table

DPReview also mention the EVF limitation in its review of the A1 published yesterday: "And if you have AF-C enabled, the resolution will drop while focusing, even with the 60 fps refresh rate and the display setting set to 'high.'"



Apr 23, 2021 at 05:04 PM
dclark
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p.5 #4 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


Holger wrote:
Yesterday when looking through the EVF (with 35GM at f1.4) I could see the resolution drop during the _day_ (quality high, AFC).
However, in the evening indoors when going to higher ISOs, I don't see it. Here the resolution stays high and doesn't drop in AFC even at f1.4.
Just wondered whether you observed something similar in your testing?

Edit:
Just went out and here I can see resolution drops. Going back indoors, rising iso to 1000 and the resolution doesn't drop but stays high. Interesting.

All the testing I did was with the Siemens Star and was inside. I did not see any effect from ISO although I did not do any extensive testing.



Apr 23, 2021 at 07:54 PM
Holger
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p.5 #5 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


dclark wrote:
All the testing I did was with the Siemens Star and was inside. I did not see any effect from ISO although I did not do any extensive testing.

Thank you. I was surprised to see that two days ago but was able to reproduce it yesterday again. Going inside produced no aliasing pattern (only a short appearance as described in your table) and then out showed it clearly, so a distincitve difference in behavior. I wonder if wave length has an influence, as just increasing SS and ISO still shows the aliasing pattern.


Edit: Yes, I think light spectrum has an influence. Just went into the lobby where it is dark under artificial light, focusing on a flower at iso 2000 - 8000 and no aliasing pattern or resolution drop a 60Hz and quality high.
Same flower close to a window with daylight and the pattern/resolution drop is visible.



Apr 24, 2021 at 01:34 AM
Dentinke
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p.5 #6 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


Glad I found this - I have been going nuts with my A1ii where the same is happening and I also finally pinned it down to wavelength being the random factor.

Outside - resolution tanks .
Inside - with daylight , same thing.
Inside with artificial lights turned on - resolution returns.

WTF

This is rubbish really. I like to track and watch my target with the shutter half pressed and so spend most of my time in fuzzy view mode .

Anyway , good to know my A1ii is not faulty at least.

Thank you to everyone in this thread for investigating.



Dec 17, 2024 at 12:32 PM
Daran
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p.5 #7 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


Dentinke wrote:
Glad I found this - I have been going nuts with my A1ii where the same is happening and I also finally pinned it down to wavelength being the random factor.
Outside - resolution tanks .
Inside - with daylight , same thing.
Inside with artificial lights turned on - resolution returns.
WTF
This is rubbish really. I like to track and watch my target with the shutter half pressed and so spend most of my time in fuzzy view mode .
Anyway , good to know my A1ii is not faulty at least.
Thank you to everyone in this thread for investigating.


You need to understand that as available light goes down, capturing sensor data for EVF and AF needs to expose longer. At some point the EVF updates must drop below the desired speed (60Hz or 120Hz or whatever). Since the updates can no longer happen at full speed anyway, readout speed and image processing for the EVF are no longer constrained in time. So while you may no longer see a drop in resolution, you are observing a switch to a lower EVF update rate. The very same thing happens on the A1I.



Dec 17, 2024 at 01:22 PM
dclark
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p.5 #8 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


As a result of some of the discussion in this thread, and some other threads that reference it, I made some additional measurements in the High Display Quality mode to determine the camera settings at which when focusing, the display quality briefly (fraction of a second) changes from High Display Quality to Standard Display Quality and then back to High Display Quality (I will call that Model High), and when focusing EVF display quality is locked into Standard Display Quality (Mode Standard). I edited table 1 in the post Page 3, #6 as a result of the additional measurements. That revised table is also shown below.

The measurements were done as described in the earlier post. A Siemens star was observed through the EVF to make it clearly visible when the EVF display quality changed. I varied the Shutter Speed (SS), ISO, F/#, and illumination of the Siemens Star to determine what camera settings operated in Mode High and which operated in Mode Standard. I found that only the SS and ISO control EVF Display Quality. The F/# and Illumination of the scene, and consequently the EVF brightness, do not matter. The transition from Mode High to Mode Standard occurs when ISO*SS=4.

This result surprises me. I have no good explanation for it. Regardless, the discussions in this thread and others are wrong. That includes my original suggestion that it had something to do with DOF.

I did not measure how the update rate of the EVF may change, only how the resolution is changing. It is clear that when the SS gets to be long it is no longer possible to maintain even 60fps, but when the transition to lower EVF update rates occur and what the rates may be has not been measured.






1.



Edited on Dec 19, 2024 at 09:05 PM · View previous versions



Dec 19, 2024 at 08:32 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.5 #9 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


dclark wrote:
As a result of some of the discussion in this thread, and some other threads that reference it, I made some additional measurements in the High Display Quality mode to determine the camera settings at which when focusing, the display quality briefly (fraction of a second) changes from High Display Quality to Standard Display Quality and then back to High Display Quality (I will call that Model High), and when focusing EVF display quality is locked into Standard Display Quality (Mode Standard). I edited table 1 in the post Page 3, #X as a result of the additional measurements. That
...Show more

Thanks for the testing and sharing these results. It is good to know how this behaves.



Dec 19, 2024 at 08:41 PM
Dentinke
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p.5 #10 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


dclark wrote:
As a result of some of the discussion in this thread, and some other threads that reference it, I made some additional measurements in the High Display Quality mode to determine the camera settings at which when focusing, the display quality briefly (fraction of a second) changes from High Display Quality to Standard Display Quality and then back to High Display Quality (I will call that Model High), and when focusing EVF display quality is locked into Standard Display Quality (Mode Standard). I edited table 1 in the post Page 3, #6 as a result of the additional measurements. That
...Show more



Today I tested this chart against my A1ii - unfortunately the resolution continues to drop at all of those ISO*SS=4 settings in HIGH quality mode. The behaviour is random sometimes it stays in high res until you take a shot then drops again for the next shot. Truly frustrating.





Dec 22, 2024 at 11:29 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.5 #11 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


Dentinke wrote:
Today I tested this chart against my A1ii - unfortunately the resolution continues to drop at all of those ISO*SS=4 settings in HIGH quality mode. The behaviour is random sometimes it stays in high res until you take a shot then drops again for the next shot. Truly frustrating.



Thanks for confirming that it works the way dclark has described. Like I said earlier, you have to decide either put the EVF in standard mode in which case it won't drop in resolution and will be locked at the lower resolution or live with the drop in resolution during focussing. There is no way to keep the camera in high resolution when focussing.



Dec 22, 2024 at 12:46 PM
ronno
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p.5 #12 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


I find the dropping screen resolution (and the accompanying moire!) very distracting.
Not right on a $7,000 camera IMO.
Seems a bit of a farce to advertise 10M when people who shoot continuous AF almost never see the 10M...and also potentially see moire the whole time it's focusing.
(sometimes the moire is so bad I can't even tell if the subject is in focus until I stop focusing.)

This is why I find the Canon EVFs a better experience- they stay sharp at around 6M, never jarringly change res, and never introduce moire.



Dec 22, 2024 at 02:56 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.5 #13 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


ronno wrote:
I find the dropping screen resolution (and the accompanying moire!) very distracting.
Not right on a $7,000 camera IMO.
Seems a bit of a farce to advertise 10M when people who shoot continuous AF almost never see the 10M...and also potentially see moire the whole time it's focusing.
(sometimes the moire is so bad I can't even tell if the subject is in focus until I stop focusing.)

This is why I find the Canon EVFs a better experience- they stay sharp at around 6M, never jarringly change res, and never introduce moire.


That is not correct. You see the higher resolution when you are not focussing, but it does drop at least momentarily when you focus. That is the way it works. The Canon EVF stays at the lower resolution all the time. You can make the Sony do that too. Just set it for Standard resolution instead of High resolution. It sounds like that is what you prefer. If so, then the Sony provides no advantage, but it isn't at a disadvantage to the Canon either.

By the way, the moire is only when dclark is shooting a test chart and he is using that to allow him to see the resolution of the EVF. It is not something that happens in normal shooting except really rarely and it likely would on the Canon too.



Dec 22, 2024 at 03:44 PM
Dentinke
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p.5 #14 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


Steve Spencer wrote:
Thanks for confirming that it works the way dclark has described. Like I said earlier, you have to decide either put the EVF in standard mode in which case it won't drop in resolution and will be locked at the lower resolution or live with the drop in resolution during focussing. There is no way to keep the camera in high resolution when focussing.



Um , no that's not what I confirmed. I confirmed that on the A1ii the numbers in the chart for ISO and Shutter make no different to when the resolution stays high or not. Something else is causing the resolution to drop or not to drop and it is usually the type of ambient lighting in the scene - daylight or artificial light or a mix.







Dec 22, 2024 at 03:56 PM
ronno
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p.5 #15 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual




Steve Spencer wrote:
That is not correct. You see the higher resolution when you are not focussing, but it does drop at least momentarily when you focus. That is the way it works. The Canon EVF stays at the lower resolution all the time. You can make the Sony do that too. Just set it for Standard resolution instead of High resolution. It sounds like that is what you prefer. If so, then the Sony provides no advantage, but it isn't at a disadvantage to the Canon either.

By the way, the moire is only when dclark is shooting a test chart
...Show more

My observations of moire have nothing to do with somebody shooting a test chart. I’m talking about my experience, I own the camera.
Also, the Canon at 6M looks far better than the Sony does at the lower setting. Also, as I said no moire with the Canons.
Try them side-by-side…I have both and it is obvious.



Dec 22, 2024 at 04:05 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.5 #16 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


Dentinke wrote:
Um , no that's not what I confirmed. I confirmed that on the A1ii the numbers in the chart for ISO and Shutter make no different to when the resolution stays high or not. Something else is causing the resolution to drop or not to drop and it is usually the type of ambient lighting in the scene - daylight or artificial light or a mix.




Can you explain more what you found then? The chart says that the resolution always drops. Sometimes just briefly if the shutter speed is slow enough and sometimes much longer if the shutter speed is fast enough. Are you finding something different, and if so what? Are you saying that in some cases the resolution doesn't drop and if so are you sure it didn't briefly drop and you just missed it? I think you and dclark are both saying that it always drops when focussing, you are just reporting different circumstances that affect how long it drops, but correct me if I am wrong. I don't doubt that you can both be right. High shutter speeds compared to ISO and the type of light could affect how long it drops, but I don't think anyone is saying it affects whether it drops.



Dec 22, 2024 at 04:05 PM
dclark
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p.5 #17 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


Dentinke wrote:
Um , no that's not what I confirmed. I confirmed that on the A1ii the numbers in the chart for ISO and Shutter make no different to when the resolution stays high or not. Something else is causing the resolution to drop or not to drop and it is usually the type of ambient lighting in the scene - daylight or artificial light or a mix.



I will have an A1II shortly. I will test it using the same methodology so we have a comparison of the A1 and the A1II.



Dec 22, 2024 at 04:07 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.5 #18 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


ronno wrote:
My observations of moire have nothing to do with somebody shooting a test chart. I’m talking about my experience, I own the camera.
Also, the Canon at 6M looks far better than the Sony does at the lower setting. Also, as I said no moire with the Canons.
Try them side-by-side…I have both and it is obvious.


I have and I literally see it differently. I much prefer the Sony EVF and I don't see moire in shooting as I said above. None of us should assume that what we see is the same experience that everyone else has.



Dec 22, 2024 at 04:07 PM
ronno
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p.5 #19 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


Steve Spencer wrote:
That is not correct. You see the higher resolution when you are not focussing, but it does drop at least momentarily when you focus.


And thus if you focus continuously while shooting (as many people do with these high fps cameras!), then it's fuzzy the whole time.

The Canon at 6M is not fuzzy, nor inducing moire.



Dec 22, 2024 at 04:17 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.5 #20 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


ronno wrote:


And thus if you focus continuously while shooting (as many people do with these high fps cameras!), then it's fuzzy the whole time.

The Canon at 6M is not fuzzy, nor inducing moire.


No it isn't fuzzy to my eye, it is just lower resolution (than the High resolution setting and not lower resolution than the Canon) and as I have said repeatedly I don't see any moire in regular shooting except very rarely. Again don't assume what you see is what other people see.



Dec 22, 2024 at 04:20 PM
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