fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Sony Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2              4       5       6       end
  

Archive 2021 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual

  
 
wordfool
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #1 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


speedmaster20d wrote:
refresh rate is what is possibly changing


Possibly changing? So they don't actually know? Would a lower refresh rate explain the moire in your earlier example and, if so, I wonder what the refresh rate drops to (it would be interesting to try your test with the EVF at 60Hz because surely the refresh rate can't drop lower than that). It all seems a bit vague to me. I was hoping they would do a little more diagnostic digging to determine exactly what was happening.



Apr 01, 2021 at 10:12 PM
speedmaster20d
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #2 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


wordfool wrote:
Possibly changing? So they don't actually know? Would a lower refresh rate explain the moire in your earlier example and, if so, I wonder what the refresh rate drops to (it would be interesting to try your test with the EVF at 60Hz because surely the refresh rate can't drop lower than that). It all seems a bit vague to me. I was hoping they would do a little more diagnostic digging to determine exactly what was happening.


that was 60Hz already. refresh rate does not explain moire or the fact the image becomes visibly coarser. I asked them to open a ticket with engineering and shed more light on the issue.




Apr 01, 2021 at 10:48 PM
Holger
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #3 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


speedmaster20d wrote:
Sony Pro just confirmed my observation, apparently all Sony cameras have it

"We were able to test your issue with different models including the A1, A9 and A7M3 and were able to replicate the issue. From my perspective it looks like the refresh rate is what is possibly changing when pressing down the shutter half way. I don't believe there is anything wrong with your unit since were were able to replicate on different models."

they are calling it refresh rate change, but that does not explain resolution drop. In either case this is a limitation tat must be disclosed upfront.


Resolution drops in 240 hz according to Sony to UXGA.

You didn't prove a resolution drop with your set up and settings. I explained why. That doesn't mean, that you are wrong. It could well be that everything you say is true, but I question your setup to show that.



Apr 02, 2021 at 01:51 AM
Pixel Perfect
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #4 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


arbitrage wrote:
I'm not 100% sure but I believe most of the time when shooting you are seeing 5.76M dots. You will only see 9.44M when in Playback and when in AF-S. I think you probably also need refresh down at 60Hz and High Quality selected.

I've noticed the resolution drop when actively focusing so I think that may be dropping to 3.7M from 5.75M when not actively focusing.

Again, I'm not totally sure about all of this.

But remember the A9 and A7RIV don't shoot at their max EVF res either so you aren't getting 5.76M on the A7RIV nor 3.7M on the
...Show more

The A9 will shoot at it's full res of 3.7MP in AF-C if you select standard refresh rate ie 60Hz, at 120Hz it will drop down to 2.36MP. The A9 II can shoot at it's max res of 3.7MP at 120Hz, one of the few worthwhile upgrades.



Apr 02, 2021 at 02:12 AM
j4nu
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #5 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


Pixel Perfect wrote:
The A9 will shoot at it's full res of 3.7MP in AF-C if you select standard refresh rate ie 60Hz, at 120Hz it will drop down to 2.36MP. The A9 II can shoot at it's max res of 3.7MP at 120Hz, one of the few worthwhile upgrades.


I also don't really see a drop on A7III when focusing, but that might be because its EVF is pretty low-res from the start...

...and since this is a thread dedicated to EVF, I'll ask here:
Am I the only one who thinks the difference between High and Standard quality EVF option in A1 is massive (I mean "wow" vs "ech, pretty average") ?



Apr 02, 2021 at 03:59 AM
dclark
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #6 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


A few days ago I was shooting some test shots with the A1 and noticed that the EVF display of fabric on a patio chair started showing aliasing when I was focusing. That can be an indication that the camera has reduced EVF resolution so I decided to make some measurements.

There have been lots of reports that the EVF resolution changed when focusing, including some in this thread. There have been claims and speculations that when focusing the resolution of the EVF can drop below the "Standard" resolution (i.e. the lowest specified EVF resolution).

To see if the EVF resolution is changing, I observed changes in the EVF display while focusing on a binary Siemens Star chart. I mounted the chart on a stand and the camera and lens on a tripod and shot using a small focus spot in tracking and non-tracking mode. I checked the EVF display for all the possible combinations of EVF frame rate, EVF Display quality and EVF magnification. I used a few lenses, and looked for changes in the EVF resolution as the shooting parameters changed (PASM mode, shutter speed, f/#, ISO), I was somewhat surprised by the results, which are summarized in the table below.

I see no evidence focusing in tracking or non-tracking mode makes any difference.
I did not see any case where EVF magnification makes a difference.
I do not see any dependence on the lens used (other than DOF issues as discussed below).

When using Display Quality Standard resolution (5.76Mdot, 1200x1600) I see no indication the resolution changes between non-focusing and focusing. There is a stable pattern in the Siemens Star pattern that does not change (see example in figure 3 below), whether focusing or not. If the resolution was reduced the pattern would visibly move further out the star pattern. There have been claims and speculation that the EVF goes into a lower res mode than 1200x1600, but that seems to be wrong.

When operating in Display Quality High (9.44Mdot, 1536x2048), it gets interesting and and a bit more complicated. When not focusing, the Siemens Star display is static and there is no significant aliasing showing (see figure 2), which is characteristic of the high resolution mode of the EVF. There is of course some aliasing at the center but it well inside the area where aliasing is seen in Display Quality Standard, so I enter that in the table below as "No aliasing". When the shutter is half=pressed to start focusing, there are two ways the EVF display responds. When focusing is initiated, the star pattern quickly changes to a pattern that appears to be identical to the pattern seen when in Display Quality Standard. That low resolution aliasing pattern either quickly (fraction of a second) returns to the high resolution pattern (even though focusing continues) or continues for as long as focusing continues. Which type of response occurs depends on the f/# and focus distance.

The low resolution aliasing pattern lasts only briefly, unless the f/# is small and the distance close. That seems to indicate the camera is computing the DOF and responding based on that. If the DOF is shallow, the EVF resolution is reduced to Standard (1200x1600) and stays there as long as focusing continues. If the DOF is larger, the EVF resolution is briefly reduced to Standard and then returns to High resolution even though focusing continues. It is left as an exercise for the reader to speculate why. My speculation is that when the DOF is shallow the camera needs more computational bandwidth to compute focus and transmit signals to the lens, and steals bandwidth from EVF updates. That leads to speculation whether the camera operates at the full 120/sec focus updates in all situations. Let the speculation begin!

In a prior comment in this thread, speedmaster20d showed a video showing an example of the aliasing pattern (using a different chart) changing to a low res pattern and staying there as long as focusing continued. Although he did not give all the parameters, you can see that he was in manual mode shooting at f/1.8. That would be consistent with the above idea that shallow DOF keeps the EVF in low res mode. If he had increased the f/#, he would have seen a transition to the mode where the EVF resolution is briefly reduced and then returns to high resolution.

The response in Display Quality High was a surprise, but the response when EVF refresh rate was set to "Higher" (i.e. EVF updates at 240/sec) surprised me even more. When EVF updates is set to 240/sec, the Siemens Star alias pattern is similar to the other modes for Display Quality Standard, except that the aliasing patterns are only present on the left and right side, indicating aliasing of horizontal lines, and not at the symmetric top and bottom positions as had been the case for all the other Display Quality Standard cases. That baffles me! I tried all kinds of changes but never got any other result. That's a surprise for which I have no explanation or even a speculation. It seems to imply that the EVF resolution was reduced in the vertical direction but not the horizontal direction, which I find too bizarre to believe.

There is one other case that I do not understand. That is the Display Quality High, Magnification 0.7, mode. I assume the way the magnification is changed is by truncating the EVF OLED display. I have worked out all the methods of scaling the sensor resolution down to the EVF display resolution, and in some cases back up to display Standard at 0.9X magnification, but I see no way to display 1536x2048 on a truncated OLED. If anyone has figured that out, or has an alternative way to achieve 1536x2048 display at magnification 0.9, I would appreciate seeing how it can be done.

Sorry about the long post.

Dave

Edit. I have edited table 1 below to reflect new measurements in the high display quality mode. There is an explanation in the post Page 5, #8.







1.







2. Siemens Star pattern in EVF High resolution mode







3. Siemens Star pattern in EVF Standard resolution mode.



Edited on Dec 19, 2024 at 09:06 PM · View previous versions



Apr 02, 2021 at 11:20 PM
Holger
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #7 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


dclark wrote:
A few days ago I was shooting some test shots with the A1 and noticed that the EVF display of fabric on a patio chair started showing aliasing when I was focusing. That can be an indication that the camera has reduced EVF resolution so I decided to make some measurements.

There have been lots of reports that the EVF resolution changed when focusing, including some in this thread. There have been claims and speculations that when focusing the resolution of the EVF can drop below the "Standard" resolution (i.e. the lowest specified EVF resolution).

To see if the EVF resolution
...Show more

Very nice test! I guess this doesn't change when using mechanical shutter, since at least a part of the manual refers to possible restrictions when E-shutter is used?

Mostly consistent with what Sony says:
https://helpguide.sony.net/ilc/2040/v1/en/contents/TP0002920065.html

- When [Finder Frame Rate] is set to [High] or [Higher], [Display Quality] becomes locked to Standard].

- Even if [Finder Frame Rate] is set to [High] or [Higher], the frame rate may be restricted depending on the temperature of the shooting environment and the shooting conditions.

- The frame rate is restricted in the following situations: When [Shutter Type] is set to [Electronic Shutter] or [Auto] and continuous shooting is performed.



Apr 03, 2021 at 03:21 AM
snapsy
Online
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #8 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


dclark wrote:
A few days ago I was shooting some test shots with the A1 and noticed that the EVF display of fabric on a patio chair started showing aliasing when I was focusing. That can be an indication that the camera has reduced EVF resolution so I decided to make some measurements.

There have been lots of reports that the EVF resolution changed when focusing, including some in this thread. There have been claims and speculations that when focusing the resolution of the EVF can drop below the "Standard" resolution (i.e. the lowest specified EVF resolution).

To see if the EVF resolution
...Show more

Fantastic work Dave. The effects you're observing on the EVF for the scenarios you tried are likely the result of the sensor readout being altered while focusing to increase the readout rate and thus supply more samples to the AF system. This likely means switching to a binned or line skipped mode. The axis-specific aliasing for the 240fps mode is probably a secondary binning/line skipping mode that further compromises the sensor resolution that's fed to the EVF, although it might also indicate an altered readout strategy related to the horizontally-arranged PDAF pixels/rows.

The DOF-specific behavior is intriguing. If I had to guess I'd say the focusing system is altering its sampling rate based on what it feels is necessary. With large DOF the camera can allow itself to react to subject movement and changes more slowly before risking losing focus, thus can get by with a lower sampling rate, with the converse being true for smaller DOF. There's also a small possibility the difference relates to the efficacy of the phase AF pixels at various apertures.



Apr 03, 2021 at 04:08 AM
Daran
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #9 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


dclark wrote:
The response in Display Quality High was a surprise, but the response when EVF refresh rate was set to "Higher" (i.e. EVF updates at 240/sec) surprised me even more. When EVF updates is set to 240/sec, the Siemens Star alias pattern is similar to the other modes for Display Quality Standard, except that the aliasing patterns are only present on the left and right side, indicating aliasing of horizontal lines, and not at the symmetric top and bottom positions as had been the case for all the other Display Quality Standard cases. That baffles me! I tried all kinds of
...Show more
Sounds like straight forward line skipping (possibly with line doubling on the output side) to me. Since the goal here is to increase the speed (rather than maximizing IQ for a lower resolution), I find that a crude but understandable approach.

There is one other case that I do not understand. That is the Display Quality High, Magnification 0.7, mode.
Is this mode different in horizontal resolution from the 240/s refresh mode?

Sorry about the long post.
You are excused.



Apr 03, 2021 at 04:36 AM
j4nu
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #10 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


dclark wrote:
A few days ago I was shooting some test shots with the A1 and noticed that the EVF display of fabric on a patio chair started showing aliasing when I was focusing. That can be an indication that the camera has reduced EVF resolution so I decided to make some measurements.

There have been lots of reports that the EVF resolution changed when focusing, including some in this thread. There have been claims and speculations that when focusing the resolution of the EVF can drop below the "Standard" resolution (i.e. the lowest specified EVF resolution).

To see if the EVF resolution
...Show more

Wow! A great post! I think it matches my observations as well (though mine were not half as detailed).
I thought that the difference in how long the resolution drop lasts depends on the lens itself. I compared Sigma 35mm @f1.2 to Sony ZA 50 @f1.4 and got a only a brief resolution drop time on the latter. Your explanation makes much more sense and I was probably just not precise enough in framing / resulting DoF.
Regarding High quality in 0.7 magnification mode, I'm sure it does not retain full resolution. However, the perceived sharpness of the same resolution displayed on a smaller area (as in 0.9 vs 0.7 magnification) is higher. So that might come into play when evaluating different magnifications.
You inspired me to print some Siemens stars so I'll try to do some testing myself .
Thanks again for your thorough test (which also coincidentally shows I'm not crazy about the High vs Standard impression ).



Apr 03, 2021 at 04:47 AM
j4nu
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #11 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


Holger wrote:
- The frame rate is restricted in the following situations: When [Shutter Type] is set to [Electronic Shutter] or [Auto] and continuous shooting is performed.


Nobody knows what this really means, that's the issue.
My eyes (I guess this kind of perception goes beyond the eyes actually) don't really see the difference between 120hz and 240zh on the targets I tried, so maybe I need better targets (or better eyes ).
Mechanical shutter behaved the same as Electronic in regards to EVF resolution in the limited tests I tried...




Apr 03, 2021 at 07:00 AM
Holger
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #12 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


j4nu wrote:
Nobody knows what this really means, that's the issue.
My eyes (I guess this kind of perception goes beyond the eyes actually) don't really see the difference between 120hz and 240zh on the targets I tried, so maybe I need better targets (or better eyes ).
Mechanical shutter behaved the same as Electronic in regards to EVF resolution in the limited tests I tried...


Thanks.

You could possibly see frequency changes when having light sources flickering at 30, 60, 120 Hz and checking the EVF.



Apr 03, 2021 at 07:28 AM
speedmaster20d
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #13 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


Holger wrote:
Possibly, but so far not 100% convinced. My observations and questions:

- Is the camera exactly perpendicular to the target? You can see changes in framing, possibly angle before after pressing the shutter button.

- Is the camera on a tripod to avoid that?

- Can you repeat that with a single focus point located at the exact same point to avoid the focus to change position? If you are not perfectly perpendicular then depending on the specific location the focus point is located, different parts of the map get a bit in/out of focus which can lead to the moire. The green
...Show more

First, I don't need to convince you of anything. this test was to confirm what the OP had seen

- the target is parallel to the image sensor not perpendicular to it.

- yes

The focus was locked in the test so there is no in and out of focus. the iphone is not perfectly parallel to finder so one side looks a bit OOF.


I am not going to test again. If you have an A1 go test for yourself and you will see the resolution drop easily. if you don't have an A1 why bother?



Edited on Apr 03, 2021 at 11:55 AM · View previous versions



Apr 03, 2021 at 11:33 AM
speedmaster20d
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #14 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


dclark wrote:
A few days ago I was shooting some test shots with the A1 and noticed that the EVF display of fabric on a patio chair started showing aliasing when I was focusing. That can be an indication that the camera has reduced EVF resolution so I decided to make some measurements.

There have been lots of reports that the EVF resolution changed when focusing, including some in this thread. There have been claims and speculations that when focusing the resolution of the EVF can drop below the "Standard" resolution (i.e. the lowest specified EVF resolution).

To see if the EVF resolution
...Show more

Good post Dave, seems like you tested most cases.

I have not looked at cases where you stop down the aperture since I mostly shoot wide open, but I can confirm it happens at f/8 with my 600 and 2X.

as for your last question are you asking about scaling factor between 0.9 and 0.7 magnification?

cheers


EDIT: The aperture/DOF dependence does not appear to be a universal effect. I just tried shooting f/1.8 and f/9 with my 135mm f/1.8. In both cases the resolution drop is evident when shutter is half pressed and never lets up.

I already conveyed my disappointment to Sony. They agreed this should have been disclosed if it is a hardware limitation and promised to follow up.



Apr 03, 2021 at 11:49 AM
dclark
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #15 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


Holger wrote:
Very nice test! I guess this doesn't change when using mechanical shutter, since at least a part of the manual refers to possible restrictions when E-shutter is used?

Mostly consistent with what Sony says:
https://helpguide.sony.net/ilc/2040/v1/en/contents/TP0002920065.html

- When [Finder Frame Rate] is set to [High] or [Higher], [Display Quality] becomes locked to Standard].

- Even if [Finder Frame Rate] is set to [High] or [Higher], the frame rate may be restricted depending on the temperature of the shooting environment and the shooting conditions.

- The frame rate is restricted in the following situations: When [Shutter Type] is set to [Electronic Shutter] or [Auto] and continuous
...Show more

These tests don't provide any information on the Finder Frame Rate. They only relate to the Finder Resolution for different settings, including Finder Frame Rate.



Apr 03, 2021 at 01:30 PM
Holger
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #16 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


speedmaster20d wrote:
First, I don't need to convince you of anything. this test was to confirm what the OP had seen

- the target is parallel to the image sensor not perpendicular to it.

- yes

The focus was locked in the test so there is no in and out of focus. the iphone is not perfectly parallel to finder so one side looks a bit OOF.

I am not going to test again. If you have an A1 go test for yourself and you will see the resolution drop easily. if you don't have an A1 why bother?



Why is the image moving, but the settings aren't? If it is the phone than everything should move at the same time. Your test was a very good idea, but not well executed.

Otherwise, the EVF behaves in accordance to Sony's description, the only thing not clearly disclosed is the aperture dependent behavior at Standard as shown by dclark.
Out of interest: Do you shoot BIF at 60Hz or 120Hz? Would you see the difference between 5.76 and 9.44 Million dots when panning and shooting BIF?


Edited on Apr 03, 2021 at 01:38 PM · View previous versions



Apr 03, 2021 at 01:34 PM
dclark
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #17 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


snapsy wrote:
Fantastic work Dave. The effects you're observing on the EVF for the scenarios you tried are likely the result of the sensor readout being altered while focusing to increase the readout rate and thus supply more samples to the AF system. This likely means switching to a binned or line skipped mode. The axis-specific aliasing for the 240fps mode is probably a secondary binning/line skipping mode that further compromises the sensor resolution that's fed to the EVF, although it might also indicate an altered readout strategy related to the horizontally-arranged PDAF pixels/rows.

The DOF-specific behavior is intriguing. If I had
...Show more

The 240/sec mode is less compromised than the 120/sec mode if only one axis has its resolution lowered.
I don't see how it is possible to not reduce the resolution of both axes when the magnification is lowered to 0.7 since I assume the OLED display is truncated.
That's why I say I am baffled by that result. I don't believe any explanation I can devise.



Apr 03, 2021 at 01:36 PM
Holger
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #18 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


dclark wrote:
These tests don't provide any information on the Finder Frame Rate. They only relate to the Finder Resolution for different settings, including Finder Frame Rate.


I know. But you tested at various frame rates and those are restricted when using E-shutter. So I was just wondering, whether using mechanical shutter and e.g. 120Hz or 240z changes something.



Apr 03, 2021 at 01:49 PM
dclark
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #19 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


Daran wrote:
Sounds like straight forward line skipping (possibly with line doubling on the output side) to me. Since the goal here is to increase the speed (rather than maximizing IQ for a lower resolution), I find that a crude but understandable approach.

Is this mode different in horizontal resolution from the 240/s refresh mode?

You are excused.


The problem at magnification 0.7 is that I assume the OLED display is being truncated. There are not enough dots in the truncated display for 1536x2048 display resolution. I don't see any practical way other than truncating the OLED display to reduce the magnification. The only other way I see requires some of the EVF to be actuated, which seems highly unlikely. Maybe someone has some other way to reduce the magnification?

As previously stated I have the same issue with the result for 240/sec.

IMO, these two issues need reasonable explanations or my confidence in the entire explanation is called into question.



Apr 03, 2021 at 01:51 PM
dclark
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.3 #20 · A1 EVF resolution -- theoretical vs actual


j4nu wrote:
Wow! A great post! I think it matches my observations as well (though mine were not half as detailed).
I thought that the difference in how long the resolution drop lasts depends on the lens itself. I compared Sigma 35mm @f1.2@ to Sony ZA 50 @f1.4@ and got a only a brief resolution drop time on the latter. Your explanation makes much more sense and I was probably just not precise enough in framing / resulting DoF.
Regarding High quality in 0.7 magnification mode, I'm sure it does not retain full resolution. However, the perceived sharpness of the same resolution displayed on
...Show more

I cannot discern the difference between High and Standard resolution by looking at the display. They both look good to me. That is why I used the Siemens Star pattern.
I don't see how to get both High resolution display, which requires the 1536x2048 of the entire OLED display, and magnification of 0.7 which is achieved by truncating the OLED to 1200x1600. Maybe someone can come up with an explanation. I have not come up with one.




Apr 03, 2021 at 01:59 PM
1       2              4       5       6       end




FM Forums | Sony Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2              4       5       6       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account