p.9 #1 · Zony 50mm f/1.4 Planar T* ZA VS Sony FE 50mm F1.2 GM
LBJ2 wrote:
Very highly corrected lenses ( high level of contrast and micro contrast) can display both Depth and Pop/3D/Cutoff effect.
If I understand what you wrote correctly, I think confusion may come about on the forums where some categorize pop or cutout or what you wrote "like a separate image than has been glued to the background." as a negative and like you wrote "depth is more about the subtle tones that provide a sense of shape" as a positive, when in reality Both can be signs of an optimal lens.
"Very highly corrected lenses like the ZEISS Otus line quickly reach peak performance. This allows shooting at wider apertures such as f/1.4 or f/2 or f/2.8 with incredible “pop” or “snap”. When set against a blurred background, the perceived sharpness is even higher because in-focus areas have wonderful micro contrast juxtaposed against blur—the image appears to pop out of the background like a 3D cutout." — Lloyd Chambers
A very good discussion IMO and plenty of details and illustrations to back up Llyod's points.
Also a good reference how to determine MTF "measured" contrast and micro-contrast:
-"Micro contrastrefers to contrast of very fine details, such as 40 line pairs per millimeter (lp/mm). Modern sensors have resolution well over 100 lp/mm, so 40 lp/mm is a proxy for what happens with greater resolution.
-Overall contrastrefers to contrast of coarse structures, generally taken as 10 lp/mm but also medium structures, generally taken as 20 lp/mm."
Sony MTFs do not account for diffraction and are said to be computer generated so we need to look for an additional source to judge Sony lenses.
I've been looking for a direct comparison ( which can take some discipline) of same subject/same lighting, same background blur, side by side test shots between the GM and the FE/Zeiss to better understand any differences in contrast/micro contrast. I own the FE-Zeiss 50 and as soon as I get my hands on the GM I will. Until then, if someone has a good reference as described above please post images or url reference....Show more →
My conclusion:
"Both types of rendering work; depends on what you want.
On occasion I do find the cutout look distracting."
-------------------
I never suggested that either rendering reflected poorly on the design or manufacture.
Not sure what an optimal lens is (in a stand-alone sense).
There are certainly optimal lenses for specific desires.
p.9 #3 · Zony 50mm f/1.4 Planar T* ZA VS Sony FE 50mm F1.2 GM
24GM, 50ZA and 85GM have a more old school representation, 35GM, 50GM and 135GM a more modern representation and best AF speed, surely designed for futur high resolution sensors. My least favorite thing about the modern line is the bokeh, similar to photoshop's gaussian blur. In AF lenses I have both worlds, 24GM-35GM-50ZA-Sigma 85F1.4 DN etc. Classic-modern-classic...Fortunately at Sony FE we have many lenses to choose from. The new old school lenses are welcome because there will be less and less, thanks to Sigma for their imperfect 45 f2.8, the cheapest lens I have ever bought (300€ new) and I use it often. I'm sorry for my bad English
Jul 06, 2022 at 03:50 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
p.9 #4 · Zony 50mm f/1.4 Planar T* ZA VS Sony FE 50mm F1.2 GM
oberheimx wrote:
24GM, 50ZA and 85GM have a more old school representation, 35GM, 50GM and 135GM a more modern representation and best AF speed, surely designed for futur high resolution sensors. My least favorite thing about the modern line is the bokeh, similar to photoshop's gaussian blur. In AF lenses I have both worlds, 24GM-35GM-50ZA-Sigma 85F1.4 DN etc. Classic-modern-classic...Fortunately at Sony FE we have many lenses to choose from. The new old school lenses are welcome because there will be less and less, thanks to Sigma for their imperfect 45 f2.8, the cheapest lens I have ever bought (300€ new) and I use it often. I'm sorry for my bad English...Show more →
I agree with what you are saying here, but would just modify it slightly. I think the 24GM, 50ZA, and 85GM have a touch of older school look with a bit spherical aberrations (SA) and a bit of axial chromatic aberrations (CA) wide open. I really like the rendering of these lenses and I added to these the Sony/Zeiss 135 f/1.8 A mount lens. I find the extra SA softens the bokeh (especially the transitions) and cover the axial CA a bit (you can still see it if you look closely). The sharpness is high, but not as high as it could be if the SA were controlled better. This is my preferred rendering for portraits.
My wife, in contrast, uses the 35 GM, 85 Sigma DG DN, and the 135 GM (I bet she will get the 50 GM and like it too). These lenses have very little SA even wide open and quite low axial CA too. They are remarkably corrected and remarkably sharp. I find the bokeh to be a bit harsh from these lenses, however (especially in transition zones).
These are all good choice, IMO. Different strokes for different folks and very much a first world problem. We are very fortunate to have these choices.
p.9 #5 · Zony 50mm f/1.4 Planar T* ZA VS Sony FE 50mm F1.2 GM
LBJ2 wrote:
Very highly corrected lenses ( high level of contrast and micro contrast) can display both Depth and Pop/3D/Cutoff effect.
If I understand what you wrote correctly, I think confusion may come about on the forums where some categorize pop or cutout or what you wrote "like a separate image than has been glued to the background." as a negative and like you wrote "depth is more about the subtle tones that provide a sense of shape" as a positive, when in reality Both can be signs of an optimal lens.
"Very highly corrected lenses like the ZEISS Otus line quickly reach peak performance. This allows shooting at wider apertures such as f/1.4 or f/2 or f/2.8 with incredible “pop” or “snap”. When set against a blurred background, the perceived sharpness is even higher because in-focus areas have wonderful micro contrast juxtaposed against blur—the image appears to pop out of the background like a 3D cutout." — Lloyd Chambers
A very good discussion IMO and plenty of details and illustrations to back up Llyod's points.
Also a good reference how to determine MTF "measured" contrast and micro-contrast:
-"Micro contrastrefers to contrast of very fine details, such as 40 line pairs per millimeter (lp/mm). Modern sensors have resolution well over 100 lp/mm, so 40 lp/mm is a proxy for what happens with greater resolution.
-Overall contrastrefers to contrast of coarse structures, generally taken as 10 lp/mm but also medium structures, generally taken as 20 lp/mm."
Sony MTFs do not account for diffraction and are said to be computer generated so we need to look for an additional source to judwhat Ige Sony lenses.
I've been looking for a direct comparison ( which can take some discipline) of same subject/same lighting, same background blur, side by side test shots between the GM and the FE/Zeiss to better understand any differences in contrast/micro contrast. I own the FE-Zeiss 50 and as soon as I get my hands on the GM I will. Until then, if someone has a good reference as described above please post images or url reference....Show more →
I did those comparisons after I obtained the 50GM (compared to 55/1.8, 50/1.4Z, had two of those, one for my wife and me). Took lots of tripod based images at various apertures and distances. Unfortunately, I don't have the images ready, was quite some time ago and would take me quite some time to search for them, but from what I remember the GM was (for us) clearly superior. Sharper at all distances and apertures (no midzone dip), more pleasing rendering and much better flare control + very fast AF. Slightly more CAs compared to the 50Z. People have different expectations and preferences, of course.
It is now my wife's favourite lens.
p.9 #6 · Zony 50mm f/1.4 Planar T* ZA VS Sony FE 50mm F1.2 GM
Holger wrote:
I did those comparisons after I obtained the 50GM (compared to 55/1.8, 50/1.4Z, had two of those, one for my wife and me). Took lots of tripod based images at various apertures and distances. Unfortunately, I don't have the images ready, was quite some time ago and would take me quite some time to search for them, but from what I remember the GM was (for us) clearly superior. Sharper at all distances and apertures (no midzone dip), more pleasing rendering and much better flare control + very fast AF. Slightly more CAs compared to the 50Z. People have different expectations and preferences, of course.
It is now my wife's favourite lens....Show more →
I fully agree with you Holger. Had the ZA as my only lens for my A7III. It was barely useable at 1.4. You had to be patient to nail focus and there had to be a lot of light. Even if you were patient, pics had some glowiness . I just used it then at f 2.0.
That was fine. But it was to heavy for a 2.0 lens. Thankfully someone picked mine up from ebay. I instantly ordered the GM. And like you said. No contest between them. GM is fully usable right from 1.2.
p.9 #7 · Zony 50mm f/1.4 Planar T* ZA VS Sony FE 50mm F1.2 GM
Steve Spencer wrote:
I agree with what you are saying here, but would just modify it slightly. I think the 24GM, 50ZA, and 85GM have a touch of older school look with a bit spherical aberrations (SA) and a bit of axial chromatic aberrations (CA) wide open. I really like the rendering of these lenses and I added to these the Sony/Zeiss 135 f/1.8 A mount lens. I find the extra SA softens the bokeh (especially the transitions) and cover the axial CA a bit (you can still see it if you look closely). The sharpness is high, but not as high as it could be if the SA were controlled better. This is my preferred rendering for portraits. ...Show more →
I too am a big fan of the Sony/Zeiss 135 f 1.8 A Mount lens and use it with LA-EA5 adapter. It’s the finest portrait lens in my arsenal for the very reason that you mentioned.
p.9 #8 · Zony 50mm f/1.4 Planar T* ZA VS Sony FE 50mm F1.2 GM
Interesting thread, I had the 50GM and still have the 35GM but ordered a Sigma 35/1.2. Sold the 50GM, I just couldn’t get along with it’s rendering, I do think that modern rendering does appeal to a bigger audience. Bitingly Sharp, minimal flare, minimal CA. Personally I went back to my MFT camera and Olympus 25mm Pro lens and the Sigma 85DG DN on the A1 combo. The Olympus has average sharpness, flares, has a bit of CA but the rendering is just beautiful, for what I use it for, it is always the images I chose for print against the Sony 50GM . I’m interested to try out the ZA, after going through this thread.
p.9 #9 · Zony 50mm f/1.4 Planar T* ZA VS Sony FE 50mm F1.2 GM
fsi22 wrote:
Interesting thread, I had the 50GM and still have the 35GM but ordered a Sigma 35/1.2. Sold the 50GM, I just couldn’t get along with it’s rendering, I do think that modern rendering does appeal to a bigger audience. Bitingly Sharp, minimal flare, minimal CA. Personally I went back to my MFT camera and Olympus 25mm Pro lens and the Sigma 85DG DN on the A1 combo. The Olympus has average sharpness, flares, has a bit of CA but the rendering is just beautiful, for what I use it for, it is always the images I chose for print against the Sony 50GM . I’m interested to try out the ZA, after going through this thread....Show more →
Like you I bought both the 35 GM and 35 DG DN 1.2, I sold the Sigma for the GM and now I miss the Sigma a bit but not so much. My best Sony 35mm was the ZA and if I decide to sold the GM, I will bought the 35 ZA again immediately.
I agree about the 50GM, I just sold this lens (and I bought the 50ZA again, I just love the rendering of the ZA).
I'm very interested by the 25mm Pro, I like the rendering of this lens (from what I've seen) ... But the 25-50mm PL looks great as well, I have the 10-25mm and the micocontrast and colors are fantastic. I'm afraid to miss the colors of the PL if I buy the 25mm Pro.
I also have the 45mm Pro, great lens with very special bokeh but most of the time I use the 85mm GM, I tried the DG DN but I still prefer the colors and rendering of the GM.
p.9 #10 · Zony 50mm f/1.4 Planar T* ZA VS Sony FE 50mm F1.2 GM
I had the Sigma 35mm 1.2 and sold it for the GM 35mm. I missed the Sigma's rendering so rebought it when Amazon did a huge deal @ $650 USD.
Ive been trying the 50mm GM of late and I love it. I think the overall look is very reminiscent of the Sigma 35mm 1.2 and the RX1rII to a certain degree. I have tried the ZA 50mm in the past and it left me cold in comparison. The 50mm GM is a very special lens.
fsi22 wrote:
Interesting thread, I had the 50GM and still have the 35GM but ordered a Sigma 35/1.2. Sold the 50GM, I just couldn’t get along with it’s rendering, I do think that modern rendering does appeal to a bigger audience. Bitingly Sharp, minimal flare, minimal CA. Personally I went back to my MFT camera and Olympus 25mm Pro lens and the Sigma 85DG DN on the A1 combo. The Olympus has average sharpness, flares, has a bit of CA but the rendering is just beautiful, for what I use it for, it is always the images I chose for print against the Sony 50GM . I’m interested to try out the ZA, after going through this thread....Show more →
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
p.9 #11 · Zony 50mm f/1.4 Planar T* ZA VS Sony FE 50mm F1.2 GM
RWEK wrote:
I fully agree with you Holger. Had the ZA as my only lens for my A7III. It was barely useable at 1.4. You had to be patient to nail focus and there had to be a lot of light. Even if you were patient, pics had some glowiness . I just used it then at f 2.0.
That was fine. But it was to heavy for a 2.0 lens. Thankfully someone picked mine up from ebay. I instantly ordered the GM. And like you said. No contest between them. GM is fully usable right from 1.2.
Not my experience at all. I think your 50 ZA must have been defective. Mine is quite sharp and useable at f/1.4. Just a hint of SA (spherical aberrations) which I like, but no problems focussing (with the A9 or A1) or with sharpness even at f/1.4. You really only gain a third of a stop with the 50 GM, so difference in low light should be minimal in a properly functioning lens.
p.9 #12 · Zony 50mm f/1.4 Planar T* ZA VS Sony FE 50mm F1.2 GM
photomadnz wrote:
I had the Sigma 35mm 1.2 and sold it for the GM 35mm. I missed the Sigma's rendering so rebought it when Amazon did a huge deal @ $650 USD.
Ive been trying the 50mm GM of late and I love it. I think the overall look is very reminiscent of the Sigma 35mm 1.2 and the RX1rII to a certain degree. I have tried the ZA 50mm in the past and it left me cold in comparison. The 50mm GM is a very special lens.
This is what intrigues me the most about the ZA. With other lenses, there isn’t as much of a difference of experience as this lens. People feel more strongly for or against it. I need to try the lens.
p.9 #13 · Zony 50mm f/1.4 Planar T* ZA VS Sony FE 50mm F1.2 GM
Keunish wrote:
Like you I bought both the 35 GM and 35 DG DN 1.2, I sold the Sigma for the GM and now I miss the Sigma a bit but not so much. My best Sony 35mm was the ZA and if I decide to sold the GM, I will bought the 35 ZA again immediately.
I agree about the 50GM, I just sold this lens (and I bought the 50ZA again, I just love the rendering of the ZA).
I'm very interested by the 25mm Pro, I like the rendering of this lens (from what I've seen) ... But the 25-50mm PL looks great as well, I have the 10-25mm and the micocontrast and colors are fantastic. I'm afraid to miss the colors of the PL if I buy the 25mm Pro.
I also have the 45mm Pro, great lens with very special bokeh but most of the time I use the 85mm GM, I tried the DG DN but I still prefer the colors and rendering of the GM.
The 25 renders very similar to the 45. Colours, contrast and the feathering are very very similar. I also have the 45 Pro, and yeah, I feel the same about it’s bokeh, don’t use it much but it’s one of those I have a very specific reason to use and never disappoints.
Hahaha, again we’re on the same wavelength with the 85DG DN and 85GM. I struggled with my choice there, The bokeh fringing bothered me on the GM but the DG DN, rendering and colour wasn’t as appealing to me. Not a huge margin of difference but once you see things, you can’t unsee them. Decided on the GM but found a store with the DG DN at almost half price , so gave that a try.
I warmed up to the DG DN and the images I’m getting have impressed me, after adjusting white balance as it’s waaaaay toooo warm for my taste as shot. I also dropped sharpness because that was too much for my taste. ( I also use my own Import Preset, I wasn’t a fan of the A1 Adobe Profile)
Only adjusted white balance to taste
Adjusted white balance again and some minimal contrast adjustments
p.9 #14 · Zony 50mm f/1.4 Planar T* ZA VS Sony FE 50mm F1.2 GM
I used to sell pro gear as part of my job. As the models of the ZA 50mm came and went I periodically tried different samples. I never really got it. At the time I had a very good copy of the 55mm and I always wondered why anyone would pay the extra. The GM is a different story.
fsi22 wrote:
This is what intrigues me the most about the ZA. With other lenses, there isn’t as much of a difference of experience as this lens. People feel more strongly for or against it. I need to try the lens.
Jul 16, 2022 at 09:50 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
p.9 #15 · Zony 50mm f/1.4 Planar T* ZA VS Sony FE 50mm F1.2 GM
photomadnz wrote:
I used to sell pro gear as part of my job. As the models of the ZA 50mm came and went I periodically tried different samples. I never really got it. At the time I had a very good copy of the 55mm and I always wondered why anyone would pay the extra. The GM is a different story.
As you mention price it might be worth noting that buying used the 50 ZA is now surprisingly low in price. I got mine from a reputable camera store for $800 about 6 months ago.
p.9 #16 · Zony 50mm f/1.4 Planar T* ZA VS Sony FE 50mm F1.2 GM
Steve Spencer wrote:
As you mention price it might be worth noting that buying used the 50 ZA is now surprisingly low in price. I got mine from a reputable camera store for $800 about 6 months ago.
Same here, i found the Zeiss 50F1.4 like new in Ebay 2 months ago with very good price ( the one that have serials number not in malfunction range). And i sold the 50GM just near price that i bought it. Great trade for the great lens !
And i feel in love again with photography when shooting by this 50ZA lens :
p.9 #17 · Zony 50mm f/1.4 Planar T* ZA VS Sony FE 50mm F1.2 GM
Little recognised factor: with the surge in MILC systems and near-constant release of lenses (except Zeiss), people now want the latest gear, thinking newer is 'better', and (sadly) being told this by reviewers.
This most certainly does not mean newer is 'better' in many or most things that are important to us. Artists choose their tools on aesthetic criteria. You think Michelangelo traded his beloved familiar mallet and chisels for the new 1540 models as soon as his dealer gave him a release date?
