Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda

New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site

New Feature: SMS Notification alert

New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist

FM Forums | Sony Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1 2

4 5 6 end

Archive 2021 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

Ulysseita
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

Thanks Gabriel for your honest and extensive review!

This set has been made (I'm one of the founders) for specific purposes.

In the last 10 years I had to work on many camera bodies and sometimes I had to fight against Nikon vs Canon vs Sony colors to find an average way to represent colors on weddings or even more, during commercial photoshoots, to be able to reproduce the REAL colors for important brands.
I'm not sure you know how hard is the pressure of a product manager on the side during shooting of bags, to be sure the REAL color is in the pictures.
Easy when you work on Phocus by Hasselblad on your H39 or C1 on your p45+ but not so easy when you use C1 on your Canon 5dsr or A7r2.
In that case, you HAVE to calibrate for different illuminants on expensive CC SG, and, believe me, even on that is not easy to take the samples with the right lights.

Told that with the Cobalt project we tried to sell a basic solution for that, adding the modular emulation base so you can have both:

calibrated high-end profiles
common colors signature between different cameras
emulation of digital and soon film colors (Leica, Fuji and Kodak, Fujifilm).

Someone could say it's expensive, seems you are not interested in our product and the quality of the basic color from LR or C1 is enough for your purposes.
But we are offering a cheap price compared just on calibration color checker SG equipment and the time to be able to work on it and the possibility to enhance your professional workflow.

About the review, I should add a think.
In LR, the general hue setting has a standard positive correction because the Adobe profile requires it.
When you use Cobalt or other customs, you have to pick the right white balance to eliminate the wrong hue.

Mar 08, 2021 at 08:18 AM

ChrisMak
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

Ulysseita wrote:
Thanks Gabriel for your honest and extensive review!

This set has been made (I'm one of the founders) for specific purposes.

In the last 10 years I had to work on many camera bodies and sometimes I had to fight against Nikon vs Canon vs Sony colors to find an average way to represent colors on weddings or even more, during commercial photoshoots, to be able to reproduce the REAL colors for important brands.
I'm not sure you know how hard is the pressure of a product manager on the side during shooting of bags, to be sure the REAL color is in...Show more →

Thanks for these elaborations. I am considering the Cobalt profiles for the Sony A7RII and Nikon D500 for use in CO1. I have a specific question: with CO1 it can be incredibly difficult to get a realistic baseline, because CO1 warms images up by default for every camera I have ever used. That means that certain images look "exalted" by default, as if looking through a particular kind of sunglasses.
This warming cast can be tedious to correct, if possible at all. I suspect CO1 to "turn up" the white balance, meaning they add a certain value to the kelvin and also the tint slider (both upwards).
Have you taken this into account when making the Cobalt profiles, or will CO1 still look warmed up or exalted by default with the Cobalt profile?

Mar 08, 2021 at 11:34 AM

GabrielPhoto
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

Thanks a slot for the detailed explanation. I will add some of this to the Description as well

Ulysseita wrote:
Thanks Gabriel for your honest and extensive review!

This set has been made (I'm one of the founders) for specific purposes.

In the last 10 years I had to work on many camera bodies and sometimes I had to fight against Nikon vs Canon vs Sony colors to find an average way to represent colors on weddings or even more, during commercial photoshoots, to be able to reproduce the REAL colors for important brands.
I'm not sure you know how hard is the pressure of a product manager on the side during shooting of bags, to be sure the REAL color is in...Show more →

Mar 08, 2021 at 11:47 AM

Ulysseita
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

ChrisMak wrote:
Thanks for these elaborations. I am considering the Cobalt profiles for the Sony A7RII and Nikon D500 for use in CO1. I have a specific question: with CO1 it can be incredibly difficult to get a realistic baseline, because CO1 warms images up by default for every camera I have ever used. That means that certain images look "exalted" by default, as if looking through a particular kind of sunglasses.
This warming cast can be tedious to correct, if possible at all. I suspect CO1 to "turn up" the white balance, meaning they add a certain value to the kelvin...Show more →

Hi Chris, the problem has a simple solution.
C1 profiles are single illuminant profiles.
So any variation has this limit, that's why I never use C1 without custom profiles for that huge limit.

Besides that, you can easily see even from samples on the website https://cobalt-image.com/shop/capture-one/ how big is the warming cast on their profiles compared to ours.

Capture One is made by P1 for P1 users AND just in the last years for everyone else.
Please take a look on P1 profiles and you'll see how deep is thei care about p1 cameras including a profile for every different illuminant for that huge limit.

Hope that is helpful!

Mar 08, 2021 at 01:25 PM

fuzzykeys
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

Hey Luis,

Have you ever tried using an X-Rite color checker profile?

Cheers,
Matt

Mar 08, 2021 at 01:30 PM

GabrielPhoto
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

Yes I have used it but somehow with LR I was not always very happy with the results. And with C1 I do not like their "integration" with Colorchekcer.
I think the amount of patches is just too limited but i am no experts

fuzzykeys wrote:
Hey Luis,

Have you ever tried using an X-Rite color checker profile?

Cheers,
Matt

Mar 08, 2021 at 02:00 PM

ChrisMak
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

Ulysseita wrote:
Hi Chris, the problem has a simple solution.
C1 profiles are single illuminant profiles.
So any variation has this limit, that's why I never use C1 without custom profiles for that huge limit.

Besides that, you can easily see even from samples on the website https://cobalt-image.com/shop/capture-one/ how big is the warming cast on their profiles compared to ours.

Capture One is made by P1 for P1 users AND just in the last years for everyone else.
Please take a look on P1 profiles and you'll see how deep is thei care about p1 cameras including a profile for every different illuminant for that huge limit.

Hope...Show more →

Thanks, it was helpful, and I just got your Cobalt D500 pack for CO1.
First impression is that it is well balanced, and renders few if any "offensive" images, something all CO1 profiles tend to do on more than one occasion. By "offensive" I mean: so obviously deviating regarding realistic rendering with one or more colors that I don't like to look at the image.

I use the D500 for wildlife exclusively, so the daylight profiles are essential for me. I noticed that the color rendering is nearly identical to the "neutral color, neutral tonality v2" setting in the DxO Photolab color tab, but slightly richer in true CO1 style.

The included CO1 generic profile for the D500 has been a true headache for me, and the Cobalt daylight profiles are so much better, they strike a good balance between accuray and good looks. I am very pleased so far.

There is one question still: You include the Standard daylight profile and the Neutral daylight profile. In some images I see little if any difference, e.g. a shot of waterfowl over blue water in bright daylight, between these two profiles, but in other images I see a large difference, e.g. birds in a green field of grass in sunny daylight. Here the standard profile renders the image clearly "sunnier" with more of a yellow atmosphere, whilst the neutral profile is far less sunny/yellow in the greens.
Can you say something on how these two daylight profiles are meant to be used? I won't be using the repro daylight profile a lot, it lacks contrast by default for nature outdoors shots.

Edit: I read the included PDF a bit better, and now understand that the standard profiles adds a color "correction" for portraits especially, the neutral profile is for general use if you do not desire this "correction", and the repo profile for use with the linear curve. My eyes have to get used to the Cobalt neutral daylight profile especially, because the CO1 generic profile adds such a heavy reddish cast.

Thanks!
Chris

Mar 08, 2021 at 04:00 PM

Ulysseita
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

Thanks, Chris, very appreciated.

The standard has a dedicated color correction to skin tones and sunrise/sunsets shots, neutral is just "colorimetric" . That's why sometimes are almost identical, sometimes not

I suggest to use the repro for big editing.
Flat as starting point but, on C1, working with RGB and luma curves is a pleasure.

Mar 08, 2021 at 04:31 PM

GabrielPhoto
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

I think I need to work more on C1. I go back and forth between it and LR.

Ulysseita wrote:
Thanks, Chris, very appreciated.

The standard has a dedicated color correction to skin tones and sunrise/sunsets shots, neutral is just "colorimetric" . That's why sometimes are almost identical, sometimes not

I suggest to use the repro for big editing.
Flat as starting point but, on C1, working with RGB and luma curves is a pleasure.

Mar 08, 2021 at 04:33 PM

Ulysseita
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

About capture one Vs Lightroom..
Two different softwares, one is more advanced for interface, color editing, curves and little super pro details, the other is ahead, so much ahead for color profiling, engine and local adjustments.

I would pick C1 for his UI and responsiveness, seems the photos are nicer on there for that... But to be honest, thanks to his flatter basic contrast/clarity and for combination texture/clarity/dehaze and his rock solid wb I would choose LR for landscape works.

Mar 09, 2021 at 04:52 AM

Ayoul
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

Ulysseita wrote:
Thanks Gabriel for your honest and extensive review!

This set has been made (I'm one of the founders) for specific purposes.

In the last 10 years I had to work on many camera bodies and sometimes I had to fight against Nikon vs Canon vs Sony colors to find an average way to represent colors on weddings or even more, during commercial photoshoots, to be able to reproduce the REAL colors for important brands.
I'm not sure you know how hard is the pressure of a product manager on the side during shooting of bags, to be sure the REAL color is in...Show more →

Is there any chance that you could share with us a few insight on how you build your profiles ? Which target and / or software ? SG Colorchecker ? Lumariver ? bICC Input ? I could understand that you don't want to say anything of course, but for users who build their own profiles, a few clues on how sophisticated and accurate your protocol is would be reassuring (or why not the measured delta E on your final profiles).

There is not a lot of explanations on your website...

Mar 09, 2021 at 06:13 AM

Ulysseita
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

Ayoul wrote:
Is there any chance that you could share with us a few insight on how you build your profiles ? Which target and / or software ? SG Colorchecker ? Lumariver ? bICC Input ? I could understand that you don't want to say anything of course, but for users who build their own profiles, a few clues on how sophisticated and accurate your protocol is would be reassuring (or why not the measured delta E on your final profiles).

There is not a lot of explanations on your website...

Hi Ayoul,

There is a simple explanation on the website followed by two sample graphs.
If you are curious about I can tell that:

-600 samples tested (sg has 140 )
-two main illuminants d65 and StdA (DNG standard)
-different transformation than the Bradford model used by Adobe for the d50 calculation.
-for DNG the internal forward matrix is limited in the Prophoto/ Human Locus in order to avoid posterizations.
-Looktables and ICC (C1) are adjusted to be relative to any different contrast curve.
-CIECAM02 is the transformation model (better tonal separation)
-main colorimetric stadium is proprietary, to build profiles we use DcamProf.

here is a sample of delta E between Adobe STD and Cobalt STD on A7r2 for CC24 of our former Cobalt 2.0 version (we are in 2.1)
Is just a basic test because of the simple cc24.
On CG the difference is way bigger.

Adobe D65 : patch match average DE 1.63, DE LCh 0.64 1.10 0.78
median DE 0.76, DE LCh 0.40 0.45 0.21
p90 DE 4.37, DE LCh 1.79 3.68 2.27
max DE 8.96, DE LCh 3.54 6.10 8.40

Cobalt D65 : patch match average DE 1.37, DE LCh 0.67 0.96 0.52
median DE 0.70, DE LCh 0.41 0.38 0.14
p90 DE 3.63, DE LCh 1.71 2.77 1.57
max DE 6.31, DE LCh 3.37 5.17 4.98

Mar 09, 2021 at 09:42 AM

saxguy
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

Ulysseita wrote:
Hi Ayoul,

There is a simple explanation on the website followed by two sample graphs.
If you are curious about I can tell that:

-600 samples tested (sg has 140 )
-two main illuminants d65 and StdA (DNG standard)
-different transformation than the Bradford model used by Adobe for the d50 calculation.
-for DNG the internal forward matrix is limited in the Prophoto/ Human Locus in order to avoid posterizations.
-Looktables and ICC (C1) are adjusted to be relative to any different contrast curve.
-CIECAM02 is the transformation model (better tonal separation)
-main colorimetric stadium is proprietary, to build profiles we use DcamProf.

here is a sample of delta E...Show more →

When do you expect to have profiles for the Alpha 1?

Mar 09, 2021 at 10:38 AM

Ulysseita
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

saxguy wrote:
When do you expect to have profiles for the Alpha 1?

I hope in the next two weeks.

Mar 09, 2021 at 11:05 AM

Ulysseita
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

Sorry... I was wrong,

A1 is ready, we are uploading it right now.

Mar 09, 2021 at 11:52 AM

GabrielPhoto
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

That was fast...much faster than me getting an A1 for sure 😁😁😁
Ulysseita wrote:
Sorry... I was wrong,

A1 is ready, we are uploading it right now.

Mar 09, 2021 at 11:53 AM

Ulysseita
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

INDEED!

Mar 09, 2021 at 12:01 PM

Ayoul
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

Mar 10, 2021 at 04:25 AM

Ulysseita
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

Ayoul wrote:
Thanks a lot for your explanations !

pleasure!

if you have more questions please feel free to ask!

ps
we are working now on something more... important.
having FILM color profiles ready for use and find both:
-all the slides ready for the use in LR
-starting from the excellent color deep of Cobalt.

Velvia

PRO 800

PRO 400

PRO 160

Superia 1600

Just WIP

Mar 12, 2021 at 01:14 PM

Ayoul
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Updated: Cobalt Image color Profiles Tested on Sony and Canon

Ulysseita wrote:
pleasure!

if you have more questions please feel free to ask!

ps
we are working now on something more... important.
having FILM color profiles ready for use and find both:
-all the slides ready for the use in LR
-starting from the excellent color deep of Cobalt.

Velvia
https://i.imgur.com/zf7aoKD.jpg

PRO 800
https://i.imgur.com/d3PR0lF.jpg

PRO 400
https://i.imgur.com/Xs6DxoO.jpg

PRO 160
https://i.imgur.com/OOPookH.jpg

Superia 1600
https://i.imgur.com/lBlFmlI.jpg

Just WIP

Nice samples ! Can't wait to see the final results !

Mar 14, 2021 at 04:55 AM

1 2 3 4 5 6 end
FM Forums \| Sony Forum \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 3 4 5 6 end

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.