realVivek wrote:
The one without the EFCS would be more compact. Reason: the shutters are the same (there are no one mechanical, two mechanical and such shutters. They all are electromechanical shutters). EFCS needs an extra actuator that Sony calls a “shutter charger”.
Sorry, what?
In a system without EFCS, there are two metal (or cloth) shutter curtains, both of which need to cover the entire sensor when closed. In a live view camera, the front curtain first needs to fully close, then the sensor is reset, then it starts opening, then the rear curtain starts closing, and finally, when front curtain is fully open and the rear fully closed, the sensor is read.
In a system with EFCS, you may eschew the front curtain entirely. In a live view camera the sensor starts fully exposed, so you just reset the sensor line-by-line with the rear curtain following at the same speed. When the rear curtain is fully closed, the sensor is read.
In a system with fully electronic shutter, you may eschew both curtains entirely. The sensor is reset line-by-line and read line-by-line at the same speed. But reading (unlike resetting) is slow, so you get rolling shutter.
What you're arguing is that eschewing the metal/cloth front curtain entirely (you have one less moving part) does not save any space. Conversely, you're arguing that something that can be implemented in silicon (EFCS) takes up more space.
In a system without EFCS, there are two metal (or cloth) shutter curtains, both of which need to cover the entire sensor when closed. In a live view camera, the front curtain first needs to fully close, then the sensor is reset, then it starts opening, then the rear curtain starts closing, and finally, when front curtain is fully open and the rear fully closed, the sensor is read.
In a system with EFCS, you may eschew the front curtain entirely. In a live view camera the sensor starts fully exposed, so you just reset the sensor line-by-line with the rear curtain following at the same speed. When the rear curtain is fully closed, the sensor is read.
In a system with fully electronic shutter, you may eschew both curtains entirely. The sensor is reset line-by-line and read line-by-line at the same speed. But reading (unlike resetting) is slow, so you get rolling shutter.
What you're arguing is that eschewing the metal/cloth front curtain entirely (you have one less moving part) does not save any space. Conversely, you're arguing that something that can be implemented in silicon (EFCS) takes up more space....Show more →
With a traditional mechanical shutter AFAIK, there is just one mechanical "curtain" if you want to call it that. A normal mechanical shutter exposure starts with the shutter closed. When that shutter opens that is called the "first curtain," when it is closes that is call the "second curtain." The delay between the first curtain and the second curtain (i.e., between the shutter opening and closing) is the shutter speed. With an electronic first curtain shutter, the exposure starts with the mechanical shutter open and begins as the sensor begins to record the light hitting it and ends when the mechanical shutter closes. This has the advantage that there is no vibration as the exposure begins, whereas with a fully mechanical shutter the opening of the shutter can cause vibrations. A fully electronic shutter (i.e., silent shooting mode in Sony language) the mechanical shutter is open at the beginning of the exposure and throughout the exposure. The exposure begins as the sensor begins to record the light hitting it and ends as the sensor stops recording light hitting it.
I don't know how the shutter works in the A7C. I suppose not a lot of people do as the camera is not generally available and I have not see a tear down of it yet. Perhaps there is something about the design that allows the physical shutter to close to end and exposure, but prevents it from opening to begin an exposure. Perhaps there is something about the camera (perhaps its size) that when the physical shutter opens it just creates too much vibration so that using the opening of the shutter to begin exposure degrades the image quality so much that Sony doesn't even make that an option. Regardless, what seems to be the case is that the A7C can be shot in electronic first curtain mode and in full electronic curtain mode, but doesn't appear to have a traditional fully mechanical shutter mode. Maybe it is possible for the camera to shoot in that mode and Sony can add the capability later and will with a firmware upgrade. For now from the reports of people who have had the camera, it can't be shot in full mechanical shutter mode.
Steve Spencer wrote:
With a traditional mechanical shutter AFAIK, there is just one mechanical "curtain" if you want to call it that. A normal mechanical shutter exposure starts with the shutter closed. When that shutter opens that is called the "first curtain," when it is closes that is call the "second curtain." The delay between the first curtain and the second curtain (i.e., between the shutter opening and closing) is the shutter speed.
In a focal plane shutter there are 2 mechanical curtains that move independently. The front curtain opens, let's say top-to-bottom, then the rear curtain closes, in the same top-to-bottom direction. If you didn't have two independent curtains, the shutter would open top-to-bottom and close bottom-to-top, which would give you a grad ND effect (the top of the sensor would be exposed longer, much longer, than the bottom). The shutter curtains are not anywhere close to instantaneous: it takes them about one (maximum) flash sync speed to move top-to-bottom.
Eschewing a mechanical front curtain entirely saves you those few sheets of metal that make up the front curtain, plus whatever electromechanical actuators that make them move. You won't get those back in a firmware upgrade. Besides not having a front curtain, the a7C shutter is also slower, as evidenced by the reduced flash sync speed.
realVivek wrote:
Here is a tip: the shutter units of A7/A7R are interchangeable.
I'm sorry, I'm new here. And I really don't want to come across as aggressive by saying this.
But if you want to educate me about this subject, you'll have to do better at teaching than one sentence replies.
As a learning opportunity, your tip adds nothing of value to me.
But maybe I'm dense, so feel free to ignore me.
Oct 14, 2020 at 07:46 PM
Steve Spencer Online • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
NunoC wrote:
In a focal plane shutter there are 2 mechanical curtains that move independently. The front curtain opens, let's say top-to-bottom, then the rear curtain closes, in the same top-to-bottom direction. If you didn't have two independent curtains, the shutter would open top-to-bottom and close bottom-to-top, which would give you a grad ND effect (the top of the sensor would be exposed longer, much longer, than the bottom). The shutter curtains are not anywhere close to instantaneous: it takes them about one (maximum) flash sync speed to move top-to-bottom.
Eschewing a mechanical front curtain entirely saves you those few sheets of metal that make up the front curtain, plus whatever electromechanical actuators that make them move. You won't get those back in a firmware upgrade. Besides not having a front curtain, the a7C shutter is also slower, as evidenced by the reduced flash sync speed....Show more →
Thanks that is very helpful. I always like it when I learn something new. More evidence that the A7C shutter is slower is the 1/4000 max speed with EFCS. You can get 1/8000 in fully electronic shutter mode.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Thanks that is very helpful. I always like it when I learn something new. More evidence that the A7C shutter is slower is the 1/4000 max speed with EFCS. You can get 1/8000 in fully electronic shutter mode.
Thanks, the last video is especially telling. I'd like to see now how much space they saved using the new crippled shutter ...
I don't want to start that debate again, as obviously we all have our own take on A7c design, but to me A7c more of an entry-level product, which hides all its downgrades (compared to 2018 A7III) under the guise of "compactness". So, I think it might be a good choice for people making the first step into FF, but it should have been cheaper IMHO.
On the other hand, it could have been a premium product, where R&D investment has been made (instead of reusing old tech) into making high quality components (EVF, LCD, grip, buttons, wheels, ...) more compact, even if not as small as the current A7c. One has to ask what's the point of making the camera more pocketable if you loose on the actual ergonomics (e.g. grip size).
j4nu wrote:
Thanks, the last video is especially telling. I'd like to see now how much space they saved using the new crippled shutter ...
I don't want to start that debate again, as obviously we all have our own take on A7c design, but to me A7c more of an entry-level product, which hides all its downgrades (compared to 2018 A7III) under the guise of "compactness". So, I think it might be a good choice for people making the first step into FF, but it should have been cheaper IMHO.
On the other hand, it could have been a premium product, where R&D investment has been made (instead of reusing old tech) into making high quality components (EVF, LCD, grip, buttons, wheels, ...) more compact, even if not as small as the current A7c. One has to ask what's the point of making the camera more pocketable if you loose on the actual ergonomics (e.g. grip size)....Show more →
Because a lot of us want a smaller rig fir Samyang 24 2.8 and FE 35 2.8 ZA with the benefits of a FF sensor and IQ advantages over the 1” and APS-C point and shoots.
j4nu wrote:
Thanks, the last video is especially telling. I'd like to see now how much space they saved using the new crippled shutter ...
I don't want to start that debate again, as obviously we all have our own take on A7c design, but to me A7c more of an entry-level product, which hides all its downgrades (compared to 2018 A7III) under the guise of "compactness". So, I think it might be a good choice for people making the first step into FF, but it should have been cheaper IMHO.
On the other hand, it could have been a premium product, where R&D investment has been made (instead of reusing old tech) into making high quality components (EVF, LCD, grip, buttons, wheels, ...) more compact, even if not as small as the current A7c. One has to ask what's the point of making the camera more pocketable if you loose on the actual ergonomics (e.g. grip size)....Show more →
I have no big issues using my A6000 when I don't want to use my other cameras. I'm excited to have the same sized camera with a much more improved full frame sensor. It'll make an excellent 2nd camera during travels.
People that want a better UI like the A73...guess what, the A73 is available.
Oct 15, 2020 at 09:40 AM
Steve Spencer Online • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
j4nu wrote:
Thanks, the last video is especially telling. I'd like to see now how much space they saved using the new crippled shutter ...
I don't want to start that debate again, as obviously we all have our own take on A7c design, but to me A7c more of an entry-level product, which hides all its downgrades (compared to 2018 A7III) under the guise of "compactness". So, I think it might be a good choice for people making the first step into FF, but it should have been cheaper IMHO.
On the other hand, it could have been a premium product, where R&D investment has been made (instead of reusing old tech) into making high quality components (EVF, LCD, grip, buttons, wheels, ...) more compact, even if not as small as the current A7c. One has to ask what's the point of making the camera more pocketable if you loose on the actual ergonomics (e.g. grip size)....Show more →
From my perspective if the camera is any bigger, then there is little point in building it. I am interested in the camera primarily for its decreased size, and if it were even 30 grams heavier then I would lose interest because it wouldn't have been small enough for me to bother considering it. Let's focus on one big thing they didn't cripple: the sensor. This camera has a good sensor (sure I would like more resolution too, but for a 24MP sensor this one is excellent), and for a primarily MF shooter like me size of the camera and the quality of the sensor matter most. Sure I would like a better shutter. Sure I would love a better EVF. Sure I would like more customizability. For me, however, I am willing to put up with the limitations of the camera (for me the EVF is the biggest one) to get the smaller size and the very nice sensor. I am not 100% sure I can live with the EVF, but if I can I am likely to get the camera despite the hobbled shutter.
I initially responded that I have no interest in the A7C, but upon further reflection, I thought that, with an A7C, I'd be able to get rid of a dual lens system (Sony aps-c and full frame). In addition, I was concerned that Sony may have decided to put less R&D resources into their APS-C cameras with the announcement of this compact full frame. Consequently, my a6400 camera and 10-18mm, 16mm, 35mm, and 18-135mm aps-c lenses have been sold via the FM B&S Forum, and an A7C to be used primarily for travel has been pre-ordered.
Steve Spencer wrote:
From my perspective if the camera is any bigger, then there is little point in building it. I am interested in the camera primarily for its decreased size, and if it were even 30 grams heavier then I would lose interest because it wouldn't have been small enough for me to bother considering it. Let's focus on one big thing they didn't cripple: the sensor. This camera has a good sensor (sure I would like more resolution too, but for a 24MP sensor this one is excellent), and for a primarily MF shooter like me size of the camera and the quality of the sensor matter most. Sure I would like a better shutter. Sure I would love a better EVF. Sure I would like more customizability. For me, however, I am willing to put up with the limitations of the camera (for me the EVF is the biggest one) to get the smaller size and the very nice sensor. I am not 100% sure I can live with the EVF, but if I can I am likely to get the camera despite the hobbled shutter....Show more →
Yes. It is surprising to me to hear the A7C described by some as overpriced or made cheaply of old parts.
In addition to its small size, which is a major feature and which is expensive rather than cheap to build, requiring additional development costs, the A7C has arguably the best image quality sensor in the Sony line (per Bill Claff's measurements) and the best AF system (the same as in the new A7SIII) other than the A9 series bodies.
The more I think about it the more I am inclined to get one. Sold my A6600 but still want a smaller kit as a companion or alternative to my A7RIV and A9. May even grab the kit lens as well. I would think my Batis 40 or 24mm GM would match up well with it too. The viewfinder is the only real concern. Maybe a needless concern if I can get use to the smaller VF on the A7C and or get use to using the rear display.
I will probably order for my wife after I get to see it in Best buy. Want to make sure it feel small compared to A7III and also the EVF is not as bad as some seem to say. She is totally fine with RX100 iv EVF. So, I think this might feel like an upgrade.
I’ll wait to buy used at some point. I am very excited about the camera conceptually (compact FF with EVF) just not enthusiastic about this execution.
Obviously they raided the parts bin, not seeing any innovation on the hardware or software side that reflects a strong conception of the product on Sony’s side. Like a Frankenstein-camera the B team scraped together.
Hopefully it sells well so Sony invests in the product line (including companion lenses), they get lots of customer feedback and iterate their way to a great product by v3 or so.
darrellc wrote:
I’ll wait to buy used at some point. I am very excited about the camera conceptually (compact FF with EVF) just not enthusiastic about this execution.
Obviously they raided the parts bin, not seeing any innovation on the hardware or software side that reflects a strong conception of the product on Sony’s side. Like a Frankenstein-camera the B team scraped together.
Hopefully it sells well so Sony invests in the product line (including companion lenses), they get lots of customer feedback and iterate their way to a great product by v3 or so.
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