Makten wrote:
Touch screen is totally useless for us that have to wear gloves ~half of the year. So it only cripples the camera by not letting us reach functions that otherwise would have had dedicated buttons. I really, really hate touch screens and I've almost stopped using my phone other than when I have no other option because of that.
I'm sure it's great for people with small fingers that don't live in a climate where they have to use gloves, though.
I am sure Sweden is a cold country. So is Canada. The city where I live is also cold half of the year with temperature frequently falling to sub -20C, occasionally to -27/-28C. Even worse, sometimes it is windy and, it feels much colder with the windchill effect. It also snows a lot here (1-2 times a week during the snow season which may last four months). I don't know how you can operate a Sony camera with gloves on. The gloves I need to use here have to be pretty thick (depending on the situation and the duration I stay out I may need to put on mittens). I cannot operate my camera through these thick gloves and mittens. For this purpose, I have special gloves and mittens where there is removable caps on some of the fingers. When I want to operate the camera, I remove the cover, take the picture(s) as quickly as possible and put the cover back as soon as possible. There are also gloves with them, it is possible to operate a touch screen. However, they are not warm enough when I am outside for prolong duration. I don't use them.
On another note, I have average male size fingers. Not certainly small though not too big either.
Like in this overview video, I just don't get it. Sony is so off here:
&feature=emb_logo
And nobody here has offered a convincing explanation on why Sony went for the old menu system and absence of touch operation even though they already have the new menu system and touch interface available at their disposal. One possible explanation as the video reviewer speculates is that this camera was meant to be released in 2019 and was already made at the that time in the past but, it got postponed to 2020 for some reason we don't know.
raminolta wrote:
I am sure Sweden is a cold country. So is Canada. The city where I live is also cold half of the year with temperature frequently falling to sub -20C, occasionally to -27/-28C. Even worse, sometimes it is windy and, it feels much colder with the windchill effect. It also snows a lot here (1-2 times a week during the snow season which may last four months). I don't know how you can operate a Sony camera with gloves on. The gloves I need to use here have to be pretty thick (depending on the situation and the duration I stay out I may need to put on mittens). I cannot operate my camera through these thick gloves and mittens. For this purpose, I have special gloves and mittens where there is removable caps on some of the fingers. When I want to operate the camera, I remove the cover, take the picture(s) as quickly as possible and put the cover back as soon as possible. There are also gloves with them, it is possible to operate a touch screen. However, they are not warm enough when I am outside for prolong duration. I don't use them.
On another note, I have average male size fingers. Not certainly small though not too big either. ...Show more →
Good for you, but I want to keep the gloves on. And it's not that cold here, so they don't have to be extremely thick. It's more fiddly to take off tighter, thinner gloves, if anything.
My guess is that it has to do with how they chose to design this camera.
It isn't a ground up design.
It a miniaturization of existing tech. They took the a7iii and shrunk it. They also added real-time AF to further enhance it for their target audience (video biased hybrid users).
This sensor cannot support 4k/60 which is why every camera with it cannot do 4k/60.
The old menu in the a7c probably bodes well for the specs on the a7iv. My guess is they didn't want to spend the time and money (or technically couldn't) make the new menu work with the a7iii tech. This might mean the a7iv will get a new sensor, processors, etc., and the new menu.
Assuming the a7c line continues this will probably be design strategy go forward. Lastest and greatest goes into the bigger and more expensive cameras, then they'll miniaturize some of it in the new c models a few years later. That could change if the 7c sells more or less units compared to different models.
raminolta wrote:
Like in this overview video, I just don't get it. Sony is so off here:
&feature=emb_logo
And nobody here has offered a convincing explanation on why Sony went for the old menu system and absence of touch operation even though they already have the new menu system and touch interface available at their disposal. The only possible explanation as the video reviewer speculates is that this camera was meant to be released in 2019 and was already made at the that time in the past but, it got postponed for some to 2020 for some reason we don't know. Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense to me at all....Show more →
rps_23 wrote:
My guess is that it has to do with how they chose to design this camera.
It isn't a ground up design.
It a miniaturization of existing tech. They took the a7iii and shrunk it. They also added real-time AF to further enhance it for their target audience (video biased hybrid users).
This sensor cannot support 4k/60 which is why every camera with it cannot do 4k/60.
The old menu in the a7c probably bodes well for the specs on the a7iv. My guess is they didn't want to spend the time and money (or technically couldn't) make the new menu work with the a7iii tech. This might mean the a7iv will get a new sensor, processors, etc., and the new menu.
Assuming the a7c line continues this will probably be design strategy go forward. Lastest and greatest goes into the bigger and more expensive cameras, then they'll miniaturize some of it in the new c models a few years later. That could change if the 7c sells more or less units compared to different models.
i will almost certainly buy one, but i don't believe in pre-ordering, so i won't buy one till i can hold it in my hands and look through the viewfinder.
sebboh wrote:
i will almost certainly buy one, but i don't believe in pre-ordering, so i won't buy one till i can hold it in my hands and look through the viewfinder.
As a a7rIV / A9 shooter with the complete array of GM and other lenses anyone who is not excited about this camera just likes to complain IMO.
It is not intended for pros and serious photographers to use as their only or even primary camera. But let me ask you something, how many pro/serious shooters only have one camera, probably not one. My Ferrari 458 spider is not my daily driver either it is for when it suits my purpose.
How often do you want a very good in fact excellent pro level camera with you in case something pops up instead of using your smartphone or point and shoot RX100? How many of us have a a7rIV and GM lens with us 24/7 nobody does.
This is a camera that is compact and ticks all the boxes I need, sure 36or 42mp be something I would like and it will come patience people and maybe a couple others but I am turning cartwheels over having a small rig to take with when I don't care to lug my big rig around.
I detest Sony's APC-C cameras an my trusty RX100V is just not enough other than for documenting things like I do with my iPhone or indoor shots at restaurants parties etc.
I had not planned on getting the 28-60 zoom but I will now how else does one get this kind of IQ and flexability that you would normally use a point and shoot for but with all the advantages of a FF sensor and AF abiltities? The zoom will be used only for point and shoot type stuff but it will beat the pants off my RX100 or any APS-C point and shoot, it's not even a contest.
I got mine for $1,618 from BH with my edu discount and no tax with their payboo card so it is a steal espeically since I already have a Samyang 24 2.8 and FE 35 2.8 ZA and the rest of my lenses.
If i didnt get the a7siii recently, I would have jumped on this. The a7iii specs were already so great, and now in a compact form with flip screen, I can't really complain. Maybe my only little gripe is the single SD card slot.
I've always wanted a sony FF sensor camera in the a6## body size to keep it portable. Years ago I saw someone cut off the viewfinder from like an a7r or a7rii and replaced the top with custom parts. When I saw that, I started hoping for something similar. Now it's finally official, so I am happy about it.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Very likely all upcoming Sony bodies will come with the new swivel LCD. I agree with you and only wish my A7R IV's LCD would tilt vertically as well.
I really hope (but am afraid I'm wrong) that this will NOT be the new standard in the Alpha series. I suspect that the side-twisters were so vocal for so long they broke down whatever internal defenses Sony had against this ergonomic abomination* and now the cat is out of the bag. It the "low-lying" part in the Sony parts bin so like Memory Stick compatibility, it will out live the usefulness it never had. I do a agree an extra flip like the Fuji, Panasonic, or . . . wait for it . . . Sony's own A99/77 would be an acceptable compromise.
*Yes, it will work better in a gimbal or shoulder rig, so I am fine with it on the A7SIII and ZV-1, just disappointed to see it on any other camera.
trstahly wrote:
As a a7rIV / A9 shooter with the complete array of GM and other lenses anyone who is not excited about this camera just likes to complain IMO.
It is not intended for pros and serious photographers to use as their only or even primary camera. But let me ask you something, how many pro/serious shooters only have one camera, probably not one. My Ferrari 458 spider is not my daily driver either it is for when it suits my purpose.
How often do you want a very good in fact excellent pro level camera with you in case something pops up instead of using your smartphone or point and shoot RX100? How many of us have a a7rIV and GM lens with us 24/7 nobody does.
This is a camera that is compact and ticks all the boxes I need, sure 36or 42mp be something I would like and it will come patience people and maybe a couple others but I am turning cartwheels over having a small rig to take with when I don't care to lug my big rig around.
I detest Sony's APC-C cameras an my trusty RX100V is just not enough other than for documenting things like I do with my iPhone or indoor shots at restaurants parties etc.
I had not planned on getting the 28-60 zoom but I will now how else does one get this kind of IQ and flexability that you would normally use a point and shoot for but with all the advantages of a FF sensor and AF abiltities? The zoom will be used only for point and shoot type stuff but it will beat the pants off my RX100 or any APS-C point and shoot, it's not even a contest.
I got mine for $1,618 from BH with my edu discount and no tax with their payboo card so it is a steal espeically since I already have a Samyang 24 2.8 and FE 35 2.8 ZA and the rest of my lenses. ...Show more →
Did you just write this to brag about your expensive car, lol? People have valid reasons to complain about A7c even if some other people love it. A7c is pretty much a 3 year old technology dressed in a somewhat smaller body introduced as a revolutionary camera. Sony has seriously crippled the user interface of A7c by omitting several buttons and dials. They did that without even adding the new touch interface that they introduced in the A7siii. The following video shows even the new touch interface is too basic and crude compared to what is available now in other brands:
They have also downgraded some features of A7 iii in the new A7c. I have always wanted a FF camera in the A7c form factor but I am not buying this because the way it is crippled, it is incompatible with the way I want to operate my camera. I don't really want to go back to shooting crippled cameras.
Example: I have always programmed one of the C buttons to manually switch between back LCD and EVF and have always disable the auto mode for switching between the two. This is because I find the auto mode is super annoying, often unwantedly turning off the lcd as soon as something moves in the back of the camera when I am actually looking at it. Without the omission of the C buttons, I am back to square one with this problem.
The video you have linked is a worthless promotion video. I am not surprised if the author turns out being paid for the video. It certainly is not an objective review by someone who is capable of seeing positive and negative aspects of a new product.
I have been waiting for a compact Sony FE camera for many years. You could have left out the viewfinder completely and made it even more compact. I only take pictures via the display!
But at the moment I think the extra charge of my a7 iii is too high. This will certainly not be worth it. Especially since you get worse in some areas. For 1.500€ I would have bought it immediately.
raminolta wrote:
Did you just write this to brag about your expensive car, lol? People have valid reasons to complain about A7c even if some other people love it. A7c is pretty much a 3 year old technology dressed in a somewhat smaller body introduced as a revolutionary camera. Sony has seriously crippled the user interface of A7c by omitting several buttons and dials. They did that without even adding the new touch interface that they introduced in the A7siii. Even though the following video shows even the new touch interface is too basic and crude compared to what is available now in other cameras:
They have also downgraded some features of A7 iii in the new A7c. I have always wanted a FF camera in the A7c form factor but I am not buying this because the way it is crippled, it is incompatible with my shooting style and I don't want to go back to shooting crippled cameras.
Example: I have always programmed one of the C buttons to manually switch between back LCD and EVF and have always disable the auto mode for switching between the two. This is because I find the auto mode is super annoying, often unwantedly turning off the lcd as soon as something moves in the back of the camera when I am actually looking at it. Without the omission of the C buttons, I am back to square one with this problem.
The video you have linked is a worthless promotion video. I am not surprised if the author turns out being paid for the video. It certainly is not an objective review by someone who is capable of seeing positive and negative aspects of a new product....Show more →
I used to own the RX1R2 and loved the form factor and single lens (like my old Fuji X100 bodies). It was a great everyday and travel camera. I think the A7c and 35/2.8 would be a perfect travel camera. Mostly LCD shooting but some EVF if desired. Damn near the same price as a used RX1R2 but way better autofocus, button layout, and UI.
Disclaimer: When I post these reviews, I don't mean I agree with them on everything they say. I do however appreciate their objective and analytic approach that they can notice and point out both positive and negative aspects of the product. After all, no product is ever perfect. This is as opposed to those other Youtube videos that are merely product presentation (at best) or product promotion (just like how the manufacturer itself does that).
It appears the a7c does not have the ability to turn off EFCS? See ~4:35 of the above video.
Personally, I was interested in the form factor, and I could even live with the lack of a front dial and the poorer EVF. But the lack of C buttons are a deal killer for me.
I am very interested in the 28-60mm kit lens though. It's like a much smaller Fuji 18-55mm to me.
Oct 13, 2020 at 09:15 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
It appears the a7c does not have the ability to turn off EFCS? See ~4:35 of the above video.
Personally, I was interested in the form factor, and I could even live with the lack of a front dial and the poorer EVF. But the lack of C buttons are a deal killer for me.
I am very interested in the 28-60mm kit lens though. It's like a much smaller Fuji 18-55mm to me.
As discussed earlier in the thread, it looks like you have two shutter modes with this camera EFCS and fully electronic shutter (i.e., silent shooting). The fully electronic shutter will of course shut off the mechanical second curtain, so will in effect shut off the EFCS mode. It does not appear that a fully mechanical shutter mode is possible for this camera. When they shrunk the size of the shutter perhaps the design did not allow a fully mechanical shutter mode.
Steve Spencer wrote:
As discussed earlier in the thread, it looks like you have two shutter modes with this camera EFCS and fully electronic shutter (i.e., silent shooting). The fully electronic shutter will of course shut off the mechanical second curtain, so will in effect shut off the EFCS mode. It does not appear that a fully mechanical shutter mode is possible for this camera. When they shrunk the size of the shutter perhaps the design did not allow a fully mechanical shutter mode.
I can understand other decisions made to cut costs with this camera, but removing (if you care about bokeh) the option to shoot moving targets with shutter speed faster than 1/1000s is beyond me ...
j4nu wrote:
I can understand other decisions made to cut costs with this camera, but removing (if you care about bokeh) the option to shoot moving targets with shutter speed faster than 1/1000s is beyond me ...
What I don't understand is why you would assume it's "cost cutting". Or is the meant to indicate sarcasm?
What do you think is more compact: a shutter with only one mechanical curtain, or a shutter with two mechanical curtains? A faster or a slower spring actuated shutter? A more or less effective (or non-existent) sensor shift system? A viewfinder with a larger or a smaller optical assembly? More or less buttons?
Why does it surprise anyone that making things more compact might make it more difficult to offer some features, regardless of cost, or market segmenting considerations?
The only thing, so far, I might see as "cost cutting" is the a7Siii menu system and touch. Though, in engineering terms, it's much more likely it was a "scope" decision than cost (the a7C is an a7iii reduction, updating menus was out of scope). And the most likely effect of breaking scope is products that never come to market, because products are never finished.
So, I can understand being disappointed. I personally would've liked a different set of compromises. But I don't see other manufacturers offering more compact cameras with a similar feature set at any price point.
NunoC wrote:
What do you think is more compact: a shutter with only one mechanical curtain, or a shutter with two mechanical curtains?
The one without the EFCS would be more compact. Reason: the shutters are the same (there are no one mechanical, two mechanical and such shutters. They all are electromechanical shutters). EFCS needs an extra actuator that Sony calls a “shutter charger”.
People have valid reasons to complain about A7c even if some other people love it. A7c is pretty much a 3 year old technology dressed in a somewhat smaller body introduced as a revolutionary camera. Sony has seriously crippled the user interface of A7c by omitting several buttons and dials. They did that without even adding the new touch interface that they introduced in the A7siii. The following video shows even the new touch interface is too basic and crude compared to what is available now in other brands: