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Archive 2020 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)

  
 
Alpha_Geist
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p.9 #1 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)


Fred Miranda wrote:
I'm not familiar with this. What benefits can one expect from using a lens with single coating when shooting B&W?


A personal benefit for using a SC lens for black and white photography is to achieve a more classic vibe with the increase of flare and reflection. Granted, these classic qualities will be more apparent in certain lighting conditions. While the usual suspects of lower contrast and a flatter image are results of shooting in these lighting situations, I'd rather incorporate these "faults" in camera than mess any more than I need to in post processing software. This will be my first lens sold and differentiated by lens coating options. The interesting thing is that the only difference between the MC and SC lenses are just that, the coatings. The lens design may (or may not) be based off an older design, but all elements will be manufactured and held to greater tolerances. How much of a noticeable difference between both SC and MC options may be tenuous at best, but if I wanted "perfection" then I have other 50mm lenses I can use and adapt if I'm feeling plucky.


Fred Miranda wrote:
Regarding that B&W smoother or 'richer' tonality gain by using a lens with single coating vs multi. If you come across an experiment showing this, please post it. I'm a non-believer but have an open mind.

We know that veiling flare lower contrast and that could potentially give us a flatter image with smoother tonality out of the gate but I think there is a some marketing behind this. After images are equalized in post-processing, I don't think any difference in contrast would be noticeable unless under heavy backlighting flare.



I'll be sure to post images in this thread with the SC lens in various lighting conditions when the lens is in my paws. I'll post some M10M images with it first since I can post almost immediately without having to develop some gelatin and fart around with scanning hardware and software...though I love a good fart(ing) around with this hobby. It's definitely not frowned upon (as much?) in public.

Edit: werdz

Edited on Oct 15, 2020 at 05:28 PM · View previous versions



Oct 15, 2020 at 05:11 PM
bjhurley
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p.9 #2 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)


Alpha_Geist wrote:
The interesting thing is that the only difference between the MC and SC lenses are just that, the coatings. The lens design may (or may not) be based off an older design, but all elements will be manufactured and held to greater tolerances. How much of a noticeable difference between both SC and MC options may be tenuous at best, but if I wanted "perfection" then I have other 50mm lenses I can use and adapt if I'm feeling plucky.


Sigma and Zeiss both came out with "classic" reduced-coating versions of their standard cinema lenses in the last year or two; some cinematographers love lenses that provide big flares and the Sigmas certainly deliver the goods (see the short example shot by Timur Civian at https://www.sigma-global.com/en/cine-lenses/products/ff-classic-prime/).



Oct 15, 2020 at 05:37 PM
Alpha_Geist
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p.9 #3 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)


bjhurley wrote:
Sigma and Zeiss both came out with "classic" reduced-coating versions of their standard cinema lenses in the last year or two; some cinematographers love lenses that provide big flares and the Sigmas certainly deliver the goods (see the short example shot by Timur Civian at https://www.sigma-global.com/en/cine-lenses/products/ff-classic-prime/).


Thank you for the info! I wasn’t aware that Zeiss and Sigma have cine lenses, let alone reduced contrast (Flare’m up boys!) lenses. I’ll watch the videos during my lunch break in a few hours.



Oct 15, 2020 at 05:48 PM
zhangyue
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p.9 #4 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)


ocean2059 wrote:
In addition, less lens coating means less light reflections. In general, SC lens allows more light coming through the lens thus the SC lens is a bit "faster" than its MC equivalent. Of course, the SC lens will not render color as accurate as the MC version.


I believe it is the other way around. MC will reduce reflection and let more light go through. The image from MC will have more pop, contrast and might be more versatile for landscape etc..

If I am in the market, I will pick single coated version as well. I found most 1950ish Leica glass have special low contrast look, the same look I can see from HC Bresson or Robert Frank's BW or Saul Leiter's color work. For sure some of look comes from old lens design and significant portion is from inefficient coating. The low contrast look is great for me for both BW and color actually. I am not convinced PP can replace it.

However, I have not made up my mind about it given I have both 50APOM and 50lux ASPHM. It is definitely a very small lens which is a big incentive for sure.




Oct 15, 2020 at 05:56 PM
ocean2059
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p.9 #5 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)


zhangyue wrote:
I believe it is the other way around. MC will reduce reflection and let more light go through. The image from MC will have more pop, contrast and might be more versatile for landscape etc..

If I am in the market, I will pick single coated version as well. I found most 1950ish Leica glass have special low contrast look, the same look I can see from HC Bresson or Robert Frank's BW or Saul Leiter's color work. For sure some of look comes from old lens design and significant portion is from inefficient coating. The low contrast look is great
...Show more →

You are correct that MC cuts down more reflection. What I should have said is “Less lens coating will allow more light go through the lens...”




Oct 15, 2020 at 06:54 PM
Alpha_Geist
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p.9 #6 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)


ocean2059 wrote:
You are correct that MC cuts down more reflection. What I should have said is “Less lens coating will allow more light go through the lens...”



I believe more lens coating (to reduce flare, improve contrast, etc.) will let more light through as it disrupts (destructive interference) the reflected light which allows greater light transmission. This is because the multicoatings remove/reduce reflections and scattering along a greater band of the whole spectrum. A singular coating will reduce (or destructively interfere) a narrower band of the spectrum, which results in more cases for reflection and thus less light transmission.



Oct 15, 2020 at 07:36 PM
ocean2059
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p.9 #7 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)


Alpha_Geist wrote:
I believe more lens coating (to reduce flare, improve contrast, etc.) will let more light through as it disrupts (destructive interference) the reflected light which allows greater light transmission. This is because the multicoatings remove/reduce reflections and scattering along a greater band of the whole spectrum. A singular coating will reduce (or destructively interfere) a narrower band of the spectrum, which results in more cases for reflection and thus less light transmission.


There were some discussion in Leica-Forum about MC vs SC: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/299638-single-coated-vs-multi-coated/.



Oct 15, 2020 at 08:16 PM
bjhurley
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p.9 #8 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)


Alpha_Geist wrote:
Thank you for the info! I wasn’t aware that Zeiss and Sigma have cine lenses, let alone reduced contrast (Flare’m up boys!) lenses. I’ll watch the videos during my lunch break in a few hours.


Sigma's cine lenses are rehoused versions of their Art primes (but they did a fantastic job with the rehousing and their cine lenses are very popular). The "Classics" are the same lenses with reduced coating to induce flare. The Zeiss Supreme Prime Radiance lenses are based on the Zeiss Supremes (which are optically similar to the Otus line of stills primes) but also have changes to the coatings to induce flare -- albeit in a much more controlled fashion than the Sigmas. I'm not sure the Supreme Prime Radiance lenses are still available; they had a limited run and I think were only sold as sets; there are details at https://thecinelens.com/2019/11/20/zeiss-continues-to-shine-with-new-supreme-prime-radiance/.



Oct 15, 2020 at 08:22 PM
Alpha_Geist
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p.9 #9 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)


ocean2059 wrote:
There were some discussion in Leica-Forum about MC vs SC: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/299638-single-coated-vs-multi-coated/.


Yes yes! I remember reading this earlier in the year. It’s a good posting! I’m eager to see the difference myself with SC on both film and digital.



Oct 15, 2020 at 08:22 PM
genji
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p.9 #10 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)


astrobuoy wrote:
I used to own that lens, though the black rather than the Panda version. I've never seen one without at least some cleaning marks; perhaps they used a softer coating. I ended up selling it but it's quite a special lens: it's a Biotar design, which is relatively rarer to find in rangefinder lenses (I still own and love my Zeiss Jena 58mm f/2 Biotar in M42 mount).


I have a black Topcor-S 5cm f/2 lens with pristine glass, not a single cleaning mark to be seen. Could you point to any information about its being a Biotar design? I also have a CZJ Biotar 58mm f/2 in M42 mount, whose rendering I adore.

philip_pj wrote:
Some like the 1950s look in B/W, I can see why they do. I'd like to see more from this SC one, since a modern complexity 8/7 lens with one of their double-sided asph elements (probably saving them weight/size) will not be lacking general performance.


The 1950s look in B&W is the gold standard for me. My current favourite lenses are the Summicron Rigid 50mm f/2 that I use on an M246 and its Dual Range sibling on my M4. Like you I’d like to see if the SC Nokton 50/1.5 has any of that 1950s magic before I place an order.

zhangyue wrote:
If I am in the market, I will pick single coated version as well. I found most 1950ish Leica glass have special low contrast look, the same look I can see from HC Bresson or Robert Frank's BW or Saul Leiter's color work. For sure some of look comes from old lens design and significant portion is from inefficient coating. The low contrast look is great for me for both BW and color actually. I am not convinced PP can replace it.


Agree 100% with everything you’ve written. Perhaps I’m a romantic fool but I strongly believe that the low contrast look we both admire—in B&W or colour—is produced by the lens and can’t truly be emulated in PP.



Oct 16, 2020 at 12:15 AM
airfrogusmc
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p.9 #11 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)


You can also go the really cheap route uually 50-100 bucks and use a 1950s Jupiter 8. There is nothing made today that has that look.

This new Voigt does look interesting but I have the 1.2 Nokton and it was a real surprise to me concerning the way it renders and the price. Great lens. I wont change lenses but this new Voigt does look interesting.



Oct 16, 2020 at 07:32 AM
bjhurley
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p.9 #12 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)


genji wrote:
Perhaps I’m a romantic fool but I strongly believe that the low contrast look we both admire—in B&W or colour—is produced by the lens and can’t truly be emulated in PP.


You can of course buy low-contrast filters (e.g., from Tiffen) and diffusion filters (e.g., Schneider Hollywood Black Magic or the Tiffen ProMist filters) to achieve some of that look on any lens, but I think the rendering (aka "the draw") and aberrations play big roles in the vintage look as well. The main caveat with diffusion filters is that they can produce speckly bokeh balls under certain conditions. I use the Hollywood Black Magic filters on modern-style lenses (e.g., Sigma Art) when using them on my cinema cameras and they certainly take the edge off and provide some glow, but the overall look is still modern. I've gravitated toward vintage and vintage-style lenses as I'm really drawn to their character. The samples provided by Cosina from this Voigtländer don't appeal to me, but I'll wait to see examples from photographers in the field before I decide!



Oct 16, 2020 at 08:22 AM
Juha Kannisto
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p.9 #13 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)


Today I managed to use my new old original "Panda" Topcor-S 5cm f2 during extended lunch break as the weather was quite nice for a few hours.

Some SOOC JPEGs on my Sony A9 (mostly wide open at f2 and some at f8 (long distance building shots)): https://photos.app.goo.gl/emoBj9JBZkqMJwYC9

Same shots with some quick PP with C1 Pro: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Mo4XhydFJi9ykRNN6

I like it a lot especially wide open. Handling is very pleasant and smooth. It has aperture click stops at full stops from f2 to f16 but also markings for 1/3rd stops. It moves clicklessly between full stops though. It's nice and sharp even wide open f2 at focused area.

For infinity shots my copy works best at hard infinity (with my Rayqual adapter) and needs f8 for best corner-to-corner performance on my A9, but f5.6 is already pretty good too. At infinity with wider apertures the edges and corners are not great.



Oct 16, 2020 at 10:55 AM
astrobuoy
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p.9 #14 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)


genji wrote:
I have a black Topcor-S 5cm f/2 lens with pristine glass, not a single cleaning mark to be seen. Could you point to any information about its being a Biotar design? I also have a CZJ Biotar 58mm f/2 in M42 mount, whose rendering I adore.



No problem. You can see the lens diagram for the Topcor-S 5cm f2 here:
https://l39camera.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/photo-11.jpg


And the Zeiss Biotar 58mm f2 here: https://i1.wp.com/casualphotophile.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Biotar-vs.-Helios-2-biotar-58mm.jpg?w=2160

It's also mentioned in passing in this review article on the Topcor 50mm f/1.5. But the main source where I've heard it discussed was on the Classic Lenses Podcast. Unfortunately I can't remember exactly which episode, but it may have been this one (I believe it was probably discussed in several episodes though): https://www.classiclensespodcast.com/e/68-photographica-and-the-blue-bessa/



Oct 16, 2020 at 03:01 PM
Juha Kannisto
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p.9 #15 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)


astrobuoy wrote:
No problem. You can see the lens diagram for the Topcor-S 5cm f2 here:
https://l39camera.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/photo-11.jpg

And the Zeiss Biotar 58mm f2 here: https://i1.wp.com/casualphotophile.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Biotar-vs.-Helios-2-biotar-58mm.jpg?w=2160

It's also mentioned in passing in this review article on the Topcor 50mm f/1.5. But the main source where I've heard it discussed was on the Classic Lenses Podcast. Unfortunately I can't remember exactly which episode, but it may have been this one (I believe it was probably discussed in several episodes though): https://www.classiclensespodcast.com/e/68-photographica-and-the-blue-bessa/


I checked out that podcast and the Topcor lens is discussed in detail from around 33min to 39min. They made a point of it being a Biotar design (uncommon) with great 3D pop and some swirl effect. I saw the same traits on my initial shooting with the lens.

They also talked about it being rare / hard to find but in Tokyo used classic camera shops it's quite easy to find the original 1st chrome and the 3rd black aluminum versions. Just the middle Panda version is harder but it still seems to pop up e.g. in Yahoo Japan auctions about once a month. I guess it's much more rare outside Japan.



Oct 17, 2020 at 01:27 AM
rscheffler
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p.9 #16 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)


Juha Kannisto wrote:
Today I managed to use my new old original "Panda" Topcor-S 5cm f2 during extended lunch break as the weather was quite nice for a few hours.

Some SOOC JPEGs on my Sony A9 (mostly wide open at f2 and some at f8 (long distance building shots)): https://photos.app.goo.gl/emoBj9JBZkqMJwYC9

Same shots with some quick PP with C1 Pro: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Mo4XhydFJi9ykRNN6

I like it a lot especially wide open. Handling is very pleasant and smooth. It has aperture click stops at full stops from f2 to f16 but also markings for 1/3rd stops. It moves clicklessly between full stops though. It's nice and sharp even
...Show more →

Thanks for these. I need to use my 50 Cron Rigid again, but the Topcor images remind me of it, to some degree. Bokeh ball structure seems similar, though might not be quite as swirly as the Topcor. The Cron Rigid initially surprised me a bit at how well it sharpened up stopped down; I see the Topcor is pretty good too. The 'chrome' hydrant near the end of the gallery doesn't show any LoCA/purple fringing. Do you remember the aperture for that one? Kind of surprised me.

I think a difference between the Topcor and a modern 50 is lower micro contrast even stopped down. This is something that always impresses me about the 50 Lux ASPH. My copy is fairly glowly wide open (it might need adjustment) but stopped down 1.5 stops and it pops like crazy in comparison.



Oct 17, 2020 at 07:02 PM
rscheffler
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p.9 #17 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)


Fred Miranda wrote:
Regarding that B&W smoother or 'richer' tonality gain by using a lens with single coating vs multi. If you come across an experiment showing this, please post it. I'm a non-believer but have an open mind.

We know that veiling flare lower contrast and that could potentially give us a flatter image with smoother tonality out of the gate but I think there is a some marketing behind this. After images are equalized in post-processing, I don't think any difference in contrast would be noticeable unless under heavy backlighting flare.


Well, maybe I should do an experiment. I have a bunch of 50s... On the scale of least modern rendering to most modern, I have the following 'vintage' lenses: Leica 50/1.5 Summarit, Nikkor 5cm/1.4 (Sonnar design), Zeiss Opton 50/1.5 Sonnar, Canon S 50/1.4 LTM, Leica 50/2 Cron Rigid. On the modern side I have: 50 Lux ASPH, ZM50/2 and Contax G 45/2.

The following is my 'gut feeling' about SC vs. MC:

Modern MC lenses seem to be pretty great at faithfully reproducing high contrast scenes as such. Given little internal light scatter, high sharpness and micro contrast, they benefit from pairing with a high dynamic range sensor. This gives a nice range of midtones bookended by deep shadows and brilliant highlights.

SC/older lenses seem to compress the tonal scale in comparison to MC lenses. IMO, the compressed tonality can be beneficial when working with a sensor with limited dynamic range. This was my experience, for example with the Leica 50/1.5 Summarit, working in sunny conditions with the M9 (8.7 stops base ISO dynamic range according to Photos to Photos). Compared to a modern 50, I found the images didn't blow out as easily. The tradeoff though was poorer fine tonal separation, which could lend to a 'muddy' look. But that's the tradeoff, it seems, with compressing the tonal range. Later in post, if you try to stretch it out again, there's going to be information missing. So IMO, the benefit of a SC lens is 'the look,' if that's what your after as the end result. And as to what 'the look' is, from a vintage lens, I'd guess it's a combination of lower contrast due to the coatings, combined with more SA, coma and more energetic bokeh. If I want high contrast and good micro contrast, I'll use a modern lens instead. I could reduce the contrast in post, but the modern rendering will still be there.

This is where I'm uncertain about the new Voigtlander 50/1.5 SC. It'll likely be somewhat lower contrast with greater propensity to flare, but the rendering, while showing some character in the sample images, isn't what I'd consider vintage.



Oct 17, 2020 at 07:33 PM
philip_pj
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p.9 #18 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)


'Vintage' takes on a range of meanings, that's the crux of it. In Cosina's case, it seems to sometimes mean 'we used an older design as a starting point and made the externals in the old style'. It might largely be styling, in fact probably is, looking at the 50/3.5.

But then the vintage VM 75/1.5 comes into view, with three APD and one asph element of its seven elements. Cosina had this to say about the 75/1.5:

'It's a medium-telephoto lens that combines an exterior *reminiscent of the styling of a classic lens* with a lens with optical performance that matches modern photography equipment.' It certainly 'matches modern equipment'.

We'll see, but I anticipate a thoroughgoing modern lens - with lower contrast and interesting flare behaviour from the SC. And the vintage look, the Japanese market loves this kind of thing. Me too, I like how they reimagine designs others left off long ago.



Oct 17, 2020 at 08:05 PM
Juha Kannisto
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p.9 #19 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)


rscheffler wrote:
Thanks for these. I need to use my 50 Cron Rigid again, but the Topcor images remind me of it, to some degree. Bokeh ball structure seems similar, though might not be quite as swirly as the Topcor. The Cron Rigid initially surprised me a bit at how well it sharpened up stopped down; I see the Topcor is pretty good too. The 'chrome' hydrant near the end of the gallery doesn't show any LoCA/purple fringing. Do you remember the aperture for that one? Kind of surprised me.

I think a difference between the Topcor and a modern 50 is
...Show more →

Thanks! The "chrome" hydrant shot was taken wide open at f2. I was impressed by that as well. This lens has quite strong pop wide open and not much glow at all. I used f2 on all the "bokeh" shots and also on a couple of long distance shots, and f8 (mostly) and f5.6 a couple of times on the scenery shots where I wanted everything sharp. Didn't use the other apertures at all yet.

I agree on the lower micro-contrast on these old rangefinder lenses... Now I got interested again in adding some more old Japanese RF glass to my vintage lens collection, previously I've only had a Canon 50/1.5 LTM from this era and this Topcor is the 2nd one. Could be nice to add Topcor 35/2.8 (more expensive though) or some Tanar lens(es) but I'll have to wait since I've spent a lot this month already...



Oct 17, 2020 at 10:25 PM
teh_rebel
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p.9 #20 · Pre-order: Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.5 II Aspheric ($949-$1,049)


i went from 40/1.4 SC to 40/1.2 FE and although i love it ... i re-purchased the 40/1.4 SC again recently. 40/1.2 is quite small/light for a 1.2 lens but i missed the size of the 40/1.4. since i dont really shoot much anymore i wanted the smaller setup and do miss the rendering of the 40/1.4. This lens got me tempted although 50 is pretty close to the 40. But later on when there's some on the used market. i would probably go with the SC version. i do love the SC on the 40/1.4

although these are processed but love the rendering of it when i was in Japan a few years ago with the 40/1.4 SC












Oct 17, 2020 at 11:27 PM
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