p.11 #1 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)
Initial reports there was a5/a6 as the smallest inexpensive Sony FF e-mount at $1k. Which kind of makes sense for Sony to respond with Z5 and compete on the entry level market. This got me very very excited.
Then a new wave of reports with higher spec'd with IBIS etc. came in and now with a price of $2K.. I kinda lost interest TBH.
I still believe there were 2 prototypes floating around, the entry 1K and the 2K.. Sony needs to respond on the entry level unless they plan to drop A7iii price to compete with Z5/RP. This may also push a7IV at $2.5K bracket but better spec'd.
p.11 #2 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)
chiron wrote:
The role that I and many others on the forum would like it to perform is the fulfillment of the original promise of the NEX-7 and the A7R, which was a very high quality but very compact camera with a large sensor and excellent lenses. It is possible but certainly not certain that Sony will do that.
Another role it might perform is for vloggers and youtubers, which could but does not have to conflict with the role in paragraph #1.
It might also be thought of as a step in the integration of the camera and the smartphone, which Sony has said they see as the future and that they are committed to. This could happen in a way that does not contradict #1 and #2 above, or in a way that contradicts #1.
We'll have to see. Shouldn't be long. The new VX lenses and the connectivity of the A7C will tell a lot of the story.
The fact that Sony are giving it a 7 series name makes me hopeful that #1 will be a strong part of the story....Show more →
It would be amazing if they could produce a VX 35 and/or 28 that comes close to the endearing qualities of the RX1's Sonnar
p.11 #3 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)
jp.gomez wrote:
Initial reports there was a5/a6 as the smallest inexpensive Sony FF e-mount at $1k. Which kind of makes sense for Sony to respond with Z5 and compete on the entry level market. This got me very very excited.
Then a new wave of reports with higher spec'd with IBIS etc. came in and now with a price of $2K.. I kinda lost interest TBH.
I still believe there were 2 prototypes floating around, the entry 1K and the 2K.. Sony needs to respond on the entry level unless they plan to drop A7iii price to compete with Z5/RP. This may also push a7IV at $2.5K bracket but better spec'd....Show more →
Sony needs something in both slots. A compact body is needed and a modern body to compete against the Z5 and RP is also needed. They don't have to be the same body.
The A7II is not a viable answer to the Z5, although it's mostly competent against the RP.
I'm wondering if Sony's answer here is to finally kick the A7IV out the door and drive the A7III down to $1500, which would make it viable against the Z5, especially since the kit pricing would be basically the same (the FE 28-70 is cheaper in kitted form than the Z 24-50, so if Sony targets the same kitted price, they can sell body-only for $100 or so more, which the higher FPS in the A7III can justify against the Z5, whose advantages are largely in a better EVF and no gimping of the second card slot)
I'd bet Sony had sampled an A5 and an A7c, and probably got more uptake on the latter (by the folks who would be looking at X-Pro bodies and similar)
p.11 #4 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)
as long as it's under 2000 USD I'm going to get this one, just the rumored lens that's really weird, they didn't get the memo after the ZV1 and RX0 that vlogging with anything longer than 24mm doesn't do?
p.11 #5 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)
nehemiahphoto wrote:
@FredMiranda@ - Yeah, 350 would be no issue for me as well.
What is really interesting to me about this camera, and new compact lens line, is the amount of pressure it potentially puts on crop cameras, specifically Fuji.
The XT-4 weight 526g without battery, while the X-Pro2 if 485g. If Sony can ballpark this body size/weight, and releases lenses between f2-2.8, at a similar size to Fuji f1.4 - f2's, and still get FF IQ and bokeh, it's going to be rough for Fuji I think.
I was thinking this exact same thing. If Sony comes out with a high spec compact FF body and a series of high quality compact f2-2.8 lenses I would no longer need/want my Fuji system and would sell it. The whole thing. Bodies. Primes. Zooms. Everything.
The whole reason I have the Fuji system (as a complement to my full Sony system) is for its smaller size. Would be great to be able to have just one system and be able to use lenses on all of the various bodies.
If Sony does this right, I suspect that it will really put the hurt on Fuji's APS-C business.
p.11 #6 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)
lunar module wrote:
I was thinking this exact same thing. If Sony comes out with a high spec compact FF body and a series of high quality compact f2-2.8 lenses I would no longer need/want my Fuji system and would sell it. The whole thing. Bodies. Primes. Zooms. Everything.
The whole reason I have the Fuji system (as a complement to my full Sony system) is for its smaller size. Would be great to be able to have just one system and be able to use lenses on all of the various bodies.
If Sony does this right, I suspect that it will really put the hurt on Fuji's APS-C business....Show more →
Honestly, I don't expect this to affect Fuji much of all.
Fuji's basically the last system standing for serious crop systems. Sony tries but the E lens selection is gloriously inconsistent for high-end crop use (they're quite competitive at the consumer level), Canon's basically screwed EF-M with the R intro, Z DX is being outsold by everything else, probably including the F6, Panasonic is focusing more and more on video with m43 and nobody knows what Olympus will be doing in October, but the chances of it being widely available are low. Sure, Pentax is introducing a new high-end APS-C body, but they're a rounding error in the DSLR market and even smaller across the ILC market.
Some folks who are using Fuji for a small second system will no doubt draw down to a single system, but I expect Fuji is going to continue to pick up transitioning users coming from APS-C DSLR's and/or m43 who are not interested in the cost of a FF system, or the size when paired with zooms. A lot of folks just can't justify the spend for FF, and you have to give up a lot of body performance when going FF below the A7III level;
Plus Fuji's JPEG engine and ergonomics are major reasons why Fuji sells. It's not just about small, especially since the Sony and Canon stuff is generally smaller.
The reality is that a set of Samyang's and an A7III or A7R mkIII/IV is just not appreciably different in size from an X-T4 and a set of Fujicrons and pricing isn't that far off for the A7III either. A smaller body and some compact primes from Sony will sell well, but Samyang will take a bigger hit than Fuji will from that, especially if the lenses are priced reasonably.
p.11 #7 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)
mawz wrote:
Honestly, I don't expect this to affect Fuji much of all.
Fuji's basically the last system standing for serious crop systems. Sony tries but the E lens selection is gloriously inconsistent for high-end crop use (they're quite competitive at the consumer level), Canon's basically screwed EF-M with the R intro, Z DX is being outsold by everything else, probably including the F6, Panasonic is focusing more and more on video with m43 and nobody knows what Olympus will be doing in October, but the chances of it being widely available are low. Sure, Pentax is introducing a new high-end APS-C body, but they're a rounding error in the DSLR market and even smaller across the ILC market.
Some folks who are using Fuji for a small second system will no doubt draw down to a single system, but I expect Fuji is going to continue to pick up transitioning users coming from APS-C DSLR's and/or m43 who are not interested in the cost of a FF system, or the size when paired with zooms. A lot of folks just can't justify the spend for FF, and you have to give up a lot of body performance when going FF below the A7III level;
Plus Fuji's JPEG engine and ergonomics are major reasons why Fuji sells. It's not just about small, especially since the Sony and Canon stuff is generally smaller.
The reality is that a set of Samyang's and an A7III or A7R mkIII/IV is just not appreciably different in size from an X-T4 and a set of Fujicrons and pricing isn't that far off for the A7III either. A smaller body and some compact primes from Sony will sell well, but Samyang will take a bigger hit than Fuji will from that, especially if the lenses are priced reasonably. ...Show more →
My first thought was Samyang. One hopes that the Sony lenses will have a more reliable build and QC at this stage of the game but whether it will justify the price difference remains to be seen. One thing is for certain, the prices for f2.8 lenses, whatever they are, will cause a great wailing and gnashing of teeth over at DPReview.
p.11 #8 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)
I'm skeptical about this product and where it's going to be positioned in the market. I'm slightly worried they are after the Sigma Fp audience and not the 'entry' level.
I don't think a compact FF camera is going to convince newcomers to join the Sony mirrorless world or convince people that have a A6000 to get this upgrade. Sure the idea of small design and small lenses is appealing, but it has to be priced just right to work.
p.11 #9 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)
zz wrote:
I'm skeptical about this product and where it's going to be positioned in the market. I'm slightly worried they are after the Sigma Fp audience and not the 'entry' level.
I don't think a compact FF camera is going to convince newcomers to join the Sony mirrorless world or convince people that have a A6000 to get this upgrade. Sure the idea of small design and small lenses is appealing, but it has to be priced just right to work.
Why would Sony chase the "sigma FP" audience? I mean, is there even one? This is an "entry level" for a new camera line. Meaning they probably will release other variants in this form factor (depending on how it is received). It's not an entry level camera to tempt APSC users to upgrade. Smaller body's is what was part of the attraction initially the lured people to Sony. They have slowly caved to the pressure of making bodies bigger each time unfortunately. This is Sony getting back the core idea of small and compact. It's an option for people. Not a replacement or upgrade per say. And I for one am Glad Sony is offering it.
p.11 #10 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)
I'm a bit mystified about what people are finding mystifying.
It looks like what this camera is is basically an A7iii, with some updates since it's newer, like menus no doubt, in a more compact "rf" style body, with trade-off being size versus an extra card slot.
Of course it's the same price (if that is right), since it has the same overall value with a rather different set of trade-offs.
If I had wanted an A7iii I'd prefer this new camera; and other people would no doubt sensibly for their needs go the other way. It expands the market buy giving people choice, and will no doubt, with some compact lenses, lure some but of course not all people who would otherwise have gone with APS to enter the full frame world, and thus likely have a higher lifetime spend with Sony.
Personally I probably won't get one, but if they ever get an A7cr (ie a higher resolution version) I would be sorely tempted for various purposes.
I don't pretend to know anything about marketing (astonishing how many people on forums, less so this one, seem to be convinced they know exactly what the public want) but it feels like a good move to me, and I know people who will buy one...
p.11 #12 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)
zz wrote:
I'm skeptical about this product and where it's going to be positioned in the market. I'm slightly worried they are after the Sigma Fp audience and not the 'entry' level.
I don't think a compact FF camera is going to convince newcomers to join the Sony mirrorless world or convince people that have a A6000 to get this upgrade. Sure the idea of small design and small lenses is appealing, but it has to be priced just right to work.
I’d suspect they’re targeting a mix of the fp and x-pro markets. For video guys it’s an fp that doesn’t need a rig, for stills guys it’s an x-pro sized body with a better lcd setup and fp.
p.11 #13 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)
DavidBM wrote:
I'm a bit mystified about what people are finding mystifying.
It looks like what this camera is is basically an A7iii, with some updates since it's newer, like menus no doubt, in a more compact "rf" style body, with trade-off being size versus an extra card slot.
Of course it's the same price (if that is right), since it has the same overall value with a rather different set of trade-offs.
If I had wanted an A7iii I'd prefer this new camera; and other people would no doubt sensibly for their needs go the other way. It expands the market buy giving people choice, and will no doubt, with some compact lenses, lure some but of course not all people who would otherwise have gone with APS to enter the full frame world, and thus likely have a higher lifetime spend with Sony.
Personally I probably won't get one, but if they ever get an A7cr (ie a higher resolution version) I would be sorely tempted for various purposes.
I don't pretend to know anything about marketing (astonishing how many people on forums, less so this one, seem to be convinced they know exactly what the public want) but it feels like a good move to me, and I know people who will buy one......Show more →
Sony have a habit of trying stuff even if it doesn't directly correlate to a specific market niche that needs filling. Sometimes it goes badly wrong of course but sometimes, like indeed with the original A7r, it comes up trumps. Marketing a new line (A7c) alongside an existing line at at a similar price (A7III) seems perhaps adventurous but it's exactly the kind of thing Sony does and boy can it work well when it does work. If not, well they had the engineers sitting in the building anyway, it's going to mainly use existing technology and parts and I've no doubt they'll sell all of the run, so why not?
Even if only to showcase just how advanced they are compared to the newcomers and would be usurpers that they can afford to branch off lines and experiment with them for the sake of 'why not', that in itself is sufficient as a marketing tool for a company so aggressive that they have established themselves in less than a decade as one of the 'big three' never mind arguably the technological leader of same in a market that for many decades only really had a 'big two'.
p.11 #14 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)
mawz wrote:
Honestly, I don't expect this to affect Fuji much of all.
Fuji's basically the last system standing for serious crop systems. Sony tries but the E lens selection is gloriously inconsistent for high-end crop use (they're quite competitive at the consumer level), Canon's basically screwed EF-M with the R intro, Z DX is being outsold by everything else, probably including the F6, Panasonic is focusing more and more on video with m43 and nobody knows what Olympus will be doing in October, but the chances of it being widely available are low. Sure, Pentax is introducing a new high-end APS-C body, but they're a rounding error in the DSLR market and even smaller across the ILC market.
Some folks who are using Fuji for a small second system will no doubt draw down to a single system, but I expect Fuji is going to continue to pick up transitioning users coming from APS-C DSLR's and/or m43 who are not interested in the cost of a FF system, or the size when paired with zooms. A lot of folks just can't justify the spend for FF, and you have to give up a lot of body performance when going FF below the A7III level;
Plus Fuji's JPEG engine and ergonomics are major reasons why Fuji sells. It's not just about small, especially since the Sony and Canon stuff is generally smaller.
The reality is that a set of Samyang's and an A7III or A7R mkIII/IV is just not appreciably different in size from an X-T4 and a set of Fujicrons and pricing isn't that far off for the A7III either. A smaller body and some compact primes from Sony will sell well, but Samyang will take a bigger hit than Fuji will from that, especially if the lenses are priced reasonably. ...Show more →
With third-party lenses, Sony has plenty of excellent APS-C lenses and small FF lenses suitable for the 6xxx cameras.
Sep 02, 2020 at 07:47 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.11 #15 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)
Sony has improved their cameras significantly with each generation, but with the cost of the cameras having become noticeably bigger than the first generation cameras. This gives them a chance to solidify or reclaim users who want a smaller camera. I think a A7Cr with a 42 MP sensor would make a lot of sense too.
For the lens line this gives them a chance to introduce a complete set of small lenses. I would love to see them introduce something like these 4 primes and these 4 zooms:
18 f/2.8 (pancake like less than 150g)
24 f/2.8 (pancake like less than 150g)
50 f/2 (pancake like less than 200g)
100 f/2.8 (short but probably can't be a pancake, less than 250g)
18-28 f/4 (less than 250g)
24-50 f/4 (less than 300g)
50-100 f/4 (less than 300g)
100-200 f/4.5-5.6 (less than 400g)
They of course have the 35 f/2.8 (at just over 100g) already and if people want fairly small and faster there is the 20 f/1.8G, 35 f/1.8, 55 f/1.8, and 85 f/1.8. I think with that set of lenses people could put together a small system that would be great for travel or for people who just want to keep the size of their kit very small.
It does look to me this camera is just about offering a small alternative and if the prices is if anything higher than the A7 III as rumored it won't address what is becoming the low end of the FF market (i.e., won't compete with the Canon RP or the Nikon Z5).
p.11 #16 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)
lightskyland wrote:
With third-party lenses, Sony has plenty of excellent APS-C lenses and small FF lenses suitable for the 6xxx cameras.
For the case of AF lenses only (most of the MF lenses available for E mount are also in X mount, the Zeiss Loxia's being the main exception)
You can certainly put together a good system around primes, if you want f1.4 primes of moderate to large size. Sigma and Viltrox both deliver there.
Want smaller with moderate speed? You're SOL outside of 3 pricey lenses with decidedly mid-range performance (24/1.8, 35/1.8 OSS, 50/1.8OSS) and two of them are huge. Not exactly a usable alternative to the Fujicrons.
The 16/2.8 is a bad joke, the 20/2.8 is pretty good, but that's it for pancakes.
From 35mm on you have a lot of options from FF as well, but using FF lenses on APS-C wider than 28mm means either slow or big (but you're still doing better than Z DX guys ;-) Those f1.8 S's are huge, expensive & heavy). The Samyang 18 & 24 are small & cheap enough that they're quite viable for APS-C if you can live with f2.8, which I would say is more practical for the 18 than the 24.
The 16-55G is superb, as is the 70-350. But there's no mid-range zoom similar in quality to the 70-350, the old ZA 16-70/4 has never been a noted performer and is long past its best before date (something that most of Sony's f4 zooms share).
For long lens use, you are drowning in options. Fuji users would be doing happy dances if they had half the options past 100mm that Sony users do.
And yet they don't have a single UWA zoom suitable for the prosumer. The 10-18/4 performs on par with a Canon 10-18 STM or a Nikon 10-20 VR, but is twice the cost. It's no replacement for Fuji's 10-24/4 or 8-16/2.8. It's the UWA's where E mount falls apart as a serious system on APS-C. Sony really has a single viable AF lens available wider than 16mm, which is the Touit 12mm (and is available also in X mount). Fuji's got 4 here covering all the bases (slow but good zoom with IS, fast and extremely wide zoom, mild UWA prime, wider UWA prime)
p.11 #17 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)
DavidBM wrote:
I'm a bit mystified about what people are finding mystifying.
It looks like what this camera is is basically an A7iii, with some updates since it's newer, like menus no doubt, in a more compact "rf" style body, with trade-off being size versus an extra card slot.
Of course it's the same price (if that is right), since it has the same overall value with a rather different set of trade-offs.
If I had wanted an A7iii I'd prefer this new camera; and other people would no doubt sensibly for their needs go the other way. It expands the market buy giving people choice, and will no doubt, with some compact lenses, lure some but of course not all people who would otherwise have gone with APS to enter the full frame world, and thus likely have a higher lifetime spend with Sony.
Personally I probably won't get one, but if they ever get an A7cr (ie a higher resolution version) I would be sorely tempted for various purposes.
I don't pretend to know anything about marketing (astonishing how many people on forums, less so this one, seem to be convinced they know exactly what the public want) but it feels like a good move to me, and I know people who will buy one......Show more →
Wise words indeed.
I think the problem is that too many forum posters seem to extrapolate from their needs/preferences to the market at large. It's the same kind of fireworks that always go off, when Sony announces another lens. Certain parts of the net errupt in rage, because that lens happens to present a compromise they didn't like: The 12-24 GM is too expensive, the 20 1.8 isn't wide enough, the 35 1.8 has too much CA and crappy bokeh, etc.
p.11 #18 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)
Chris_88 wrote:
Wise words indeed.
I think the problem is that too many forum posters seem to extrapolate from their needs/preferences to the market at large. It's the same kind of fireworks that always go off, when Sony announces another lens. Certain parts of the net errupt in rage, because that lens happens to present a compromise they didn't like: The 12-24 GM is too expensive, the 20 1.8 isn't wide enough, the 35 1.8 has too much CA and crappy bokeh, etc.
Agreed, although Sony's relatively scattergun approach to lens development has left them releasing some specialty lenses while they lacked what most would consider bread & butter lenses.
For example, Sony lacks a 300/4, which is generally the top selling telephoto prime in every mature system, but has two different UWA zooms in both f4 and f2.8 varieties.
Sony didn't release a 35/1.8 for years, and again that's very much a bread & butter lens. They didn't have a single prime wider than 24mm for a long while and still don't have one wider than 20mm.
Sony's lens development is almost intended to generate controversy with every release. That leads to a lot of silliness on forums as you note, but also means everybody is looking even if it's uninteresting to them because they're still waiting for something that's missing.
Sony was never quite in the position where they could properly leverage their legacy lenses for this due to the minimal selection of SSM and SAM lenses in A mount.
Frankly only Canon truly leverage their full legacy AF lens catalog on mirrorless (Nikon is both in a better place than Sony was with A mount, as they have a lot more AF-S and AF-I lenses than there were SSM or SAM lenses, plus they have VR and in a worse place, because they still have alot of screwdriver AF lenses out there and no screwdriver capable adapter, not even a kinda crappy performing one like the LA-EA4)
Sony is however 4-6 years ahead of the other systems in developing a real native lens catalog, and the only FF system with any 3rd party support worth noting. That puts them in a powerful position, but there's still gaps in areas that folks consider bread & butter lenses. Those will fill with time, and Sony has time to do so where Nikon and Canon don't necessarily, especially Nikon.
p.11 #19 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)
With the new Nikon Z5 and the Panasonic S5 sporting a regular CMOS sensor (not a BSI sensor), it would be interesting to see what Sony would offer in their new camera.
p.11 #20 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)
realVivek wrote:
With the new Nikon Z5 and the Panasonic S5 sporting a regular CMOS sensor (not a BSI sensor), it would be interesting to see what Sony would offer in their new camera.
Also will be interesting to see what they do with the EVF. The Z5 at least has the A9 EVF ,while the S5 has the A7iii. I hope they don't cheap out and keep the same A7iii EVF. That could be a deal breaker for me. 2.3 million doesn't cut it in 2020 in my opinion.
zz wrote: