deepbluejh wrote:
The testing by the guy in China all but proves it, yes..
Cliffnotes for those who didn't bother to read the article.
1. The CPU does not have proper cooling. In fact, it doesn't even have its own heatsink.
2. The CPU, while its the hottest part of the camera, does not even get that hot before it enters "shutdown" mode.
3. Improving internal cooling had no effect on recording time limits
4. External ambient temperatures had no effect on recording time limits
5. Recording without memory cards to an external recorder exploits a loophole and allows the user to bypass artificial recording limits imposed by the firmware.
Bottom line, the recording limits of this camera are in no way a result of the thermal limitations of the camera. It is software based. ...Show more →
Wanna' bet Canon closes that loophole on external recording? That would be a slap in the face to say the least, but given their obsession with crippling their cameras to protect other product lines, this kind of move seems inevitable. Remember the old days when that Russian guy Vitaliy Kiselev hacked the Panasonic GH cameras? I would imagine that's not going to be possible with the R5.
deepbluejh wrote:
What a huge, embarrasing, self-inflicted wound for Canon. It didn't have to be this way. They could have crushed the entire market at this price point and stood toe to toe with the A7SIII. As is, just another slap in the face for Canon video shooters.
Zenon Char wrote:
Has the artificial FW time limit been proven?
deepbluejh wrote:
The testing by the guy in China all but proves it, yes..
Cliffnotes for those who didn't bother to read the article.
1. The CPU does not have proper cooling. In fact, it doesn't even have its own heatsink.
2. The CPU, while its the hottest part of the camera, does not even get that hot before it enters "shutdown" mode.
3. Improving internal cooling had no effect on recording time limits
4. External ambient temperatures had no effect on recording time limits
5. Recording without memory cards to an external recorder exploits a loophole and allows the user to bypass artificial recording limits imposed by the firmware.
Bottom line, the recording limits of this camera are in no way a result of the thermal limitations of the camera. It is software based. ...Show more →
That data is only weakly supportive at best. If my team were working on the camera, I might use a combination of sensor (temperature) and timed limits to protect the product in the long term. The camera has to last at least for the 2-year warranty period plus have a low enough failure rate to maintain confidence in the brand.
aae991 wrote:
Wanna' bet Canon closes that loophole on external recording? That would be a slap in the face to say the least, but given their obsession with crippling their cameras to protect other product lines, this kind of move seems inevitable. Remember the old days when that Russian guy Vitaliy Kiselev hacked the Panasonic GH cameras? I would imagine that's not going to be possible with the R5.
That's my fear. That they give us lighter codecs and slightly longer record times, but then close the long external recording bug. This will have me making a big decision. I think i would lean towards keeping the old firmware...but then as new lenses that come out start requiring the firmware upgrade, what do you do?
Howie4life wrote:
That's my fear. That they give us lighter codecs and slightly longer record times, but then close the long external recording bug. This will have me making a big decision. I think i would lean towards keeping the old firmware...but then as new lenses that come out start requiring the firmware upgrade, what do you do?
I'm right with you. It's always possible that continued bad PR will influence them to "behave" about the loophole. Can you imagine the uproar if they disable it I'd be one of them, and I don't really do much video anymore. I sold my professional video gear two years ago as I closed that part of my business to concentrate on other things. For personal use, the video attributes of this camera were appealing. At least for now we've got firmware that allows for external recordings of pristine 4K into ProRes.
deepbluejh wrote:
The testing by the guy in China all but proves it, yes..
Cliffnotes for those who didn't bother to read the article.
1. The CPU does not have proper cooling. In fact, it doesn't even have its own heatsink.
2. The CPU, while its the hottest part of the camera, d and oes not even get that hot before it enters "shutdown" mode.
3. Improving internal cooling had no effect on recording time limits
4. External ambient temperatures had no effect on recording time limits
5. Recording without memory cards to an external recorder exploits a loophole and allows the user to bypass artificial recording limits imposed by the firmware.
Bottom line, the recording limits of this camera are in no way a result of the thermal limitations of the camera. It is software based. ...Show more →
There isn't enough evidence yet to support intentional crippling theories. Recording to an external recorder bypasses the video compression path in DIGIC - that involves a lot of data movement and computation. What others are assuming is a fixed-time limit related to crippling may simply be the side effect of the thermal management algorithm.
aae991 wrote:
Wanna' bet Canon closes that loophole on external recording? That would be a slap in the face to say the least, but given their obsession with crippling their cameras to protect other product lines, this kind of move seems inevitable. Remember the old days when that Russian guy Vitaliy Kiselev hacked the Panasonic GH cameras? I would imagine that's not going to be possible with the R5.
Also my suspicion...
My advice to anyone thinking about upgrading their firmware... be absolutely sure to save a copy of the current firmware to your computer before "upgrading" if you want to use an external recorder for video.
aae991 wrote:
Wanna' bet Canon closes that loophole on external recording? That would be a slap in the face to say the least, but given their obsession with crippling their cameras to protect other product lines, this kind of move seems inevitable. Remember the old days when that Russian guy Vitaliy Kiselev hacked the Panasonic GH cameras? I would imagine that's not going to be possible with the R5.
Yep, exactly what I was thinking...they will likely close the loophole if they feel that was a mistake and they are worried about actual heat damage and/or protecting the upcoming RF Cinema line. I wouldn't be jumping on that update until someone thoroughly tests it.
My advice to anyone thinking about upgrading their firmware... be absolutely sure to save a copy of the current firmware to your computer before "upgrading" if you want to use an external recorder for video.
Does Canon allow you to go back after FW update? I know a lot of cameras don't.
deepbluejh wrote:
The testing by the guy in China all but proves it, yes..
Cliffnotes for those who didn't bother to read the article.
1. The CPU does not have proper cooling. In fact, it doesn't even have its own heatsink.
2. The CPU, while its the hottest part of the camera, does not even get that hot before it enters "shutdown" mode.
3. Improving internal cooling had no effect on recording time limits
4. External ambient temperatures had no effect on recording time limits
5. Recording without memory cards to an external recorder exploits a loophole and allows the user to bypass artificial recording limits imposed by the firmware.
Bottom line, the recording limits of this camera are in no way a result of the thermal limitations of the camera. It is software based. ...Show more →
Do we know about the guy in China. Who is he? You trust him? I'm only asking as there where other videos I watched where someone used a thermal measuring device and it did heat up. The fellow from China said it didn't heat up and that change he made did not make that much of a difference.
I'm only asking because people on forums where asking how they going to resolve the heat issue with this small of a body. According to this guy bad design, no heatsink, etc and yet it does not heat up. How is that possible?
It very well may be that some fishy going on. Something does not make sense to me at this point. I'd like a second opinion like Lens Rentals.
There are thousands of engineers in China that nobody has ever heard of. That doesn't make them any less reputable.
If one person claims something, take it with a grain a salt... if a bunch of different people claim the exact same thing, there's probably something to it.
There is a lot of evidence presented that the "thermal" shutdown of video recording is actually software dictated and has nothing to do with the actual thermals of the camera.
deepbluejh wrote:
There is a lot of evidence presented that the "thermal" shutdown of video recording is actually software dictated and has nothing to do with the actual thermals of the camera.
If it has nothing to do with the actual thermals of the camera then why does it sometimes disallow any (or much) video shooting after it has warmed up from an hour or more of stills-only shooting?
So are you contemplating what to do with a hypothetical firmware update based on guessing what it might contain? Unlimited external recording is not a bug, it is standard practice since it apparently allows the manufacturer to bypass the higher video camera tariff and takes away much of the processing load (which would heat the camera when recording video internally) and all of the storage-related heat generation from the camera.
snapsy wrote:
If it has nothing to do with the actual thermals of the camera then why does it sometimes disallow any (or much) video shooting after it has warmed up from an hour or more of stills-only shooting?
No idea... that's something to ask Canon.
Here's what I do know though... A buddy of mine filming a wedding with me two weeks ago. Shooting 4K60 of the bride getting ready before the ceremony with the R5. Camera shut down before we even made it outside to go shoot the ceremony.
We were filming in a very well air conditioned hall - below 70F. The camera was completely cool to the touch. Stopped filming. Done.
The camera has been a HUGE disappointment to filmmakers. I cannot overstress that enough. It is simply a complete failure for professional level event shooting. It might work for some things, but for me personally if I could not film a wedding with it without it overheating, I would not even consider it.
deepbluejh wrote:
No idea... that's something to ask Canon.
Here's what I do know though... A buddy of mine filming a wedding with me two weeks ago. Shooting 4K60 of the bride getting ready before the ceremony with the R5. Camera shut down before we even made it outside to go shoot the ceremony.
We were filming in a very well air conditioned hall - below 70F. The camera was completely cool to the touch. Stopped filming. Done.
The camera has been a HUGE disappointment to filmmakers. I cannot overstress that enough. It is simply a complete failure for professional level event shooting. It might work for some things, but for me personally if I could not film a wedding with it without it overheating, I would not even consider it. ...Show more →
I would be so pissed if I spent 4K on that brick and it shut down on me in that situation....what a joke.
Hmmmm, I really don't care about video, and I think most Canon shooters were more interested in the "stills" features like IBIS, resolution and the focusing system than we were/are about the video features, but these issues still give me pause. I'm glad I held off until it's all resolved or the camera simply is deemed reliable for stills or not.
Add to that the issues with their website and reports of stolen data, they sure seem quiet about it all.
deepbluejh wrote:
No idea... that's something to ask Canon.
Here's what I do know though... A buddy of mine filming a wedding with me two weeks ago. Shooting 4K60 of the bride getting ready before the ceremony with the R5. Camera shut down before we even made it outside to go shoot the ceremony.
We were filming in a very well air conditioned hall - below 70F. The camera was completely cool to the touch. Stopped filming. Done.
The camera has been a HUGE disappointment to filmmakers. I cannot overstress that enough. It is simply a complete failure for professional level event shooting. It might work for some things, but for me personally if I could not film a wedding with it without it overheating, I would not even consider it. ...Show more →
No question the R5's recording limits are a disappointment. But that's different than claiming it's intentional. Being cool to the touch on the exterior doesn't mean an internal chip didn't exceed Canon's threshold.
snapsy wrote:
If it has nothing to do with the actual thermals of the camera then why does it sometimes disallow any (or much) video shooting after it has warmed up from an hour or more of stills-only shooting?
It obviously has to do with thermals. It is just a matter of how much it has to do with thermals, and how much it has to do with intentionally preventing people from using the camera as a primary video tool.
Not that it is really relevant but I am not bashing Canon, and neither are most of the people in this thread Canon haters. I paid above MSRP to buy a Canon EOS R5 from a user in this very thread.
Now, with all of that out of the way: the reason so many people suspect intentional crippling of record times is because it is the simplest conclusion given all of the evidence. Alternative explanations are predicated on faith and brand loyalty rather than on the evidence that currently exists.
I'll give Canon the benefit of the doubt here, and say it's not all software. They did, after all, make one of the most stunningly poor packaging decisions with regard to dissipating heat as well.
deepbluejh wrote:
There are thousands of engineers in China that nobody has ever heard of. That doesn't make them any less reputable.
If one person claims something, take it with a grain a salt... if a bunch of different people claim the exact same thing, there's probably something to it.
There is a lot of evidence presented that the "thermal" shutdown of video recording is actually software dictated and has nothing to do with the actual thermals of the camera.
Who are these these bunch of people. Did they take it apart and do the tests to verify? Evidence from one source but not by others. In science you present our findings and the community verifies if you correct or not.
deepbluejh wrote:
No idea... that's something to ask Canon.
Here's what I do know though... A buddy of mine filming a wedding with me two weeks ago. Shooting 4K60 of the bride getting ready before the ceremony with the R5. Camera shut down before we even made it outside to go shoot the ceremony.
We were filming in a very well air conditioned hall - below 70F. The camera was completely cool to the touch. Stopped filming. Done.
The camera has been a HUGE disappointment to filmmakers. I cannot overstress that enough. It is simply a complete failure for professional level event shooting. It might work for some things, but for me personally if I could not film a wedding with it without it overheating, I would not even consider it. ...Show more →
Clearly you just need to also buy an R6 so you can get reliable 60p albeit at 1080.
If people need more evidence of Canon's intentional market segmentation at the expense of utility: Canon produced the R5, and R6 simultaneously. You *cannot get* BOTH reliable 4k and reliable high frame rate video from *either camera*. If you want to be a Canon hybrid shooter and want reliable full frame 4k and reliable 120fps 1080p, you have to buy both the R5 and the R6.
R5 can have reliable 4k30/24 non-HQ recording. However, it overheats in all 60p and 120p modes due to being limited to capturing in 4k. Why in the world would it limit you from capturing 1080p HFR?
R6 has no reliable 4k30/24 recording period. However, it can be used 1080p120 and 1080p60 without overheating concerns.
4k120 wasn't even a thing on hybrid cameras until a few months ago with the 1DXIII, most users would have been completely fine shooting the R5 at 1080p120 or 1080p60 when it "overheated" in the 4k120 and 4k60 modes. But they can't do that. At least, not without buying additional cameras.
Canon may remedy this with firmware, it's true. But I suspect they will only do so due to the A7s III being an astonishingly good video first hybrid camera, and not because they feel it is the right thing to do for their customers. If that were the case, they would have just added it in the first place.
I'd be one of them, and I don't really do much video anymore. I sold my professional video gear two years ago as I closed that part of my business to concentrate on other things. For personal use, the video attributes of this camera were appealing. At least for now we've got firmware that allows for external recordings of pristine 4K into ProRes.