* Automatically switches among modes A (drive mode icon lit in green), B (drive mode icon lit in white), and C (drive mode icon flashing in white).
* Continuous shooting speed is lower under certain shooting and measurement conditions: shutter speed, aperture value,-subject conditions, brightness, type of lens, timing when internal memory becomes full (temporarily disables shooting)
- Mechanical / electronic 1st curtain: use of flash, anti-flicker shooting: Enable, Dual Pixel RAW shooting- Enable, type of battery, battery level, temperature, use of a battery grip, use of WFT, use of built-in Wi-Fi.
- Electronic shutter: State of aperture in continuous shooting
* With Certain lenses, zooming during continuous shooting with electronic shutter may cause changes in exposure even at the same f/number.
*1: For shooting RAW images in [High-speed continuous +], 13-bit A/D conversion will apply regardless of the mode (A, B, or C).
*2: With Anti-flicker shooting, max. continuous shooting speed may drop to approx 6.2 fps (with electronic 1st curtain shutter) or approx. 4.9 fps (with mechanical shutter).
* For Dual Pixel RAW shooting, Low-speed continuous shooting will apply.
when i go back and re-read the table with the foot notes.
*1: For shooting RAW images in [High-speed continuous +], 13-bit A/D conversion will apply regardless of the mode (A, B, or C).
that foot note (*1) only applies to Mechanical Shutter and Electronic 1st curtain. because the column Electronic shutter is separate and isolated from the other 2 columns (Mechanical Shutter and Electronic 1st curtain) and reads Approx. 20 shots/sec.
the fact that *1 refers to shooting RAW images in [High-speed continuous +] regardless of the mode (A, B, or C) and does not reference the Electronic Shutter indicates that in the Electronic Shutter Mode the R5 shoots at 20 fps and outputs 14 bit RAW. because Electronic Shutter does not shoot in Modes A, B, or C.
that is a terrible Table and poor technical writing.
EB-1 wrote:
I suppose it's not in that crazy 919 page manual.
EBH
No amazingly even after 900 pages there is no mention one way or the other if HSD works with EF. But I did learn how to use the on/off switch and which way to mount the lens.
arbitrage wrote:
No amazingly even after 900 pages there is no mention one way or the other if HSD works with EF. But I did learn how to use the on/off switch and which way to mount the lens.
I shoot landscape and mostly still wildlife - 12fps/13 bit is plenty for me. I just need big burst and reasonable fps so when the grizzly stands up I can get his pose. I will avoid the 20fps/12bit with rolling shutter risk. Likely it does not make a difference (and its still likely better than sony) at iso 6400 but it could at iso 400 (which occasionally happens) and will mean a lot less pruning. The only time I would appreciate 20fps is for whale breaching but 12 bit vs dynamic range - tough choice.
Canon keeps dropping their standards to match Sony competition (focus on video vs stills, correction of horrible barrel distortion in L lens and now 12 bit). Hopefully they get to a photography mirrorless 5SR 85mpx soon. There are lots of ways they could be better for still that don't cost - eg AEB in bulb, auto exposure to 10 minutes, blended hdr RAW, pixel shift, removal of AA, frequent hardware updates even at a fee.... I guess its way more economic to have only 1 production camera and keep the market share.
from Scott Stones link file type/still image type:
JPEG: 2 compression options RAW: RAW, C-RAW 14 bit (14-bit with Mechanical shutter and Electronic 1st Curtain, 13-bit A/D conversion with H+ mode, 12-bit A/D conversion with Electronic shutter,, Canon original RAW 3rd edition) HEIF: 10bit HEIF is available in HDR shooting with [HDR PQ] set to [Enable] Complies with Exif 2.31 and Design rule for Camera File system 2.0 Complies with Digital Print Order Format [DPOF] Version 1.1
from the foot notes in the link i posted. page 8 drive system:
*1: For shooting RAW images in [High-speed continuous +], 13-bit A/D conversion will apply regardless of the mode (A, B, or C).
the table in the same document with foot note *1 indicates IMHO in the Electronic Shutter Mode the R5 shoots at 20 fps and outputs 14 bit RAW. because Electronic Shutter does not shoot in Modes A, B, or C.
so which is it? 12 bit RAW, 13 bit RAW, or 14 bit RAW A/D conversion? both of these statements are from official Canon R5 documentation. not to mention that the R5 user manual does not mention the bit depth at all. at least i could not find a reference to it in the R5 Advanced User Guide.
this makes me wonder why Canon would publish contradictory data? and what is the real bit depth? if it turns out to be 12 bit RAW and not 13 bit RAW in High-speed continuous + it won't look good for Canon. that may be in the grey area of False Advertising.
i think i may see the problem, semantics. is there a difference between 14 bit RAW output on the sensor vs. 14 bit A/D conversion?
I agree for Landscape the 12 fps is not a big deal
I happened to want 12 fps for Birds in Flight, but in the R5 manual, page 452, read that to get 12 fps, many factors need to fall in line. Some of these include
..camera needs to be at room temp ***
..battery level at least 60% ****
..shutter speed 1/1000 or faster
..lens needs to be set to maximum aperture *****
..flicker reduction can't be on
..all RF and only certain EF lenses can be used
Quite a list. The items I've starred above could be a problem for me as I photograph songbirds at closer range and sometimes need depth of field. I am planning on 8 fps, if I buy this camera
InnomnateViem wrote:
from Scott Stones link file type/still image type:
JPEG: 2 compression options RAW: RAW, C-RAW 14 bit (14-bit with Mechanical shutter and Electronic 1st Curtain, 13-bit A/D conversion with H+ mode, 12-bit A/D conversion with Electronic shutter,, Canon original RAW 3rd edition) HEIF: 10bit HEIF is available in HDR shooting with [HDR PQ] set to [Enable] Complies with Exif 2.31 and Design rule for Camera File system 2.0 Complies with Digital Print Order Format [DPOF] Version 1.1
from the foot notes in the link i posted. page 8 drive system:
*1: For shooting RAW images in [High-speed continuous +], 13-bit A/D conversion will apply regardless of the mode (A, B, or C).
the table in the same document with foot note *1 indicates IMHO in the Electronic Shutter Mode the R5 shoots at 20 fps and outputs 14 bit RAW. because Electronic Shutter does not shoot in Modes A, B, or C.
so which is it? 12 bit RAW, 13 bit RAW, or 14 bit RAW A/D conversion? both of these statements are from official Canon R5 documentation. not to mention that the R5 user manual does not mention the bit depth at all. at least i could not find a reference to it in the R5 Advanced User Guide.
this makes me wonder why Canon would publish contradictory data? and what is the real bit depth? if it turns out to be 12 bit RAW and not 13 bit RAW in High-speed continuous + it won't look good for Canon. that may be in the grey area of False Advertising.
i think i may see the problem, semantics. is there a difference between 14 bit RAW output on the sensor vs. 14 bit A/D conversion?
People seem to keep replying that this is black and white but as you so keenly noted it is somewhat difficult to decipher what bit depth you are getting in certain modes.
From what I can tell:
- If you absolutely want 14bit its safe with mechanical shutter or 1st curtain electronic at a FPS less than or equal to 8
- 9fps to 12 fps mechanical/first curtain E leads to 13 bit
- Who the hell knows what bit depth you are getting with electronic shutter. Sounds like it is CRAW regardless.
InnomnateViem wrote:
from the foot notes in the link i posted. page 8 drive system:
*1: For shooting RAW images in [High-speed continuous +], 13-bit A/D conversion will apply regardless of the mode (A, B, or C).
the table in the same document with foot note *1 indicates IMHO in the Electronic Shutter Mode the R5 shoots at 20 fps and outputs 14 bit RAW. because Electronic Shutter does not shoot in Modes A, B, or C.
so which is it? 12 bit RAW, 13 bit RAW, or 14 bit RAW A/D conversion?
If lower fps is 14-bit, continuous high+ mechanical shutter is 13-bit, logic would indicate high+ electronic shutter being less than 13-bit. If 20fps e-shutter was 14-bit, why wouldn't the same be possible for 12fps mechanical, where data throughput would be less?
Isn't the 1DXIII at 20fps 12-bit? And that's 'only' a 20MP sensor...
Scott Stoness wrote:
Canon keeps dropping their standards to match Sony competition (focus on video vs stills, correction of horrible barrel distortion in L lens and now 12 bit).
IMO this is too simplistic. We don't know what the technical limitations are of the hardware to achieve a certain specification set. Moving a ton of imaging data to feed the EVF, while also calculating AF, capturing full resolution 45MP files at 20fps.... there's going to be tradeoffs somewhere. At least they're being fairly clear about what those tradeoffs are.
Hardware vs. software lens correction is another area of compromises. Some corrections can be effectively done in software if there is an abundance of information from a high resolution sensor. It might be worthwhile leaving strong barrel distortion if it allows the lens design to better correct other aberrations that are less effectively corrected by software while keeping lens size and price reasonable. It's also not that Sony is a 'leader' in doing this. Every mirrorless manufacturer does it, including Leica.
The R5 is Canon's upper-level generalist camera that tries to do as much for as many photographers as possible, like the 5D series before it. Maybe some of your wishes will come true with a stills-focused 'R' version in the near future.
good technical writing shall be written in precise concise functional language without ambiguity. it would appear IMPO that there is more than one technical writer writing documents for the R5 and they did not coordinate their efforts which has introduced ambiguity across the various R5 documentation.
or, if there is only one author of theses R5 documents he/she is not a good technical writer. it also possible that something got lost in the translation. assuming of course that the documentation was originally written in Japaneses.
If lower fps is 14-bit, continuous high+ mechanical shutter is 13-bit, logic would indicate high+ electronic shutter being less than 13-bit. If 20fps e-shutter was 14-bit, why wouldn't the same be possible for 12fps mechanical, where data If lower fps is 14-bit, continuous high+ mechanical shutter is 13-bit, logic would indicate high+ electronic shutter being less than 13-bit. If 20fps e-shutter was 14-bit, why wouldn't the same be possible for 12fps mechanical, where data throughput would be less? would be less?
if is the biggest 2 letter word in the english vocabulary.
i would say that logic dictates that because the electronic shutter is not mechanically being switched and is electronically switched. it is using less power and resources of the processor and associated circuitry. it may be possible actually to throughput data at a higher rate.
the inherent problem is ambiguity in the R5's documentation.
ronaldmayes wrote:
I agree for Landscape the 12 fps is not a big deal
I happened to want 12 fps for Birds in Flight, but in the R5 manual, page 452, read that to get 12 fps, many factors need to fall in line. Some of these include
..camera needs to be at room temp ***
..battery level at least 60% ****
..shutter speed 1/1000 or faster
..lens needs to be set to maximum aperture *****
..flicker reduction can't be on
..all RF and only certain EF lenses can be used
Quite a list. The items I've starred above could be a problem for me as I photograph songbirds at closer range and sometimes need depth of field. I am planning on 8 fps, if I buy this camera ...Show more →
Don't worry about it. All manuals say if battery capacities are low then fps is effected. The R5 says 60% but also says it will continue to work depending on battery conditions, etc.
Low temps, Anti Flicker, 1000 fps, EOS iTR, maximum aperture (varies depending on lens), etc. You know where this is out of? My 7D2 manual.
If lower fps is 14-bit, continuous high+ mechanical shutter is 13-bit, logic would indicate high+ electronic shutter being less than 13-bit. If 20fps e-shutter was 14-bit, why wouldn't the same be possible for 12fps mechanical, where data If lower fps is 14-bit, continuous high+ mechanical shutter is 13-bit, logic would indicate high+ electronic shutter being less than 13-bit. If 20fps e-shutter was 14-bit, why wouldn't the same be possible for 12fps mechanical, where data throughput would be less? would be less?
InnomnateViem wrote:
if is the biggest 2 letter word in the english vocabulary.
i would say that logic dictates that because the electronic shutter is not mechanically being switched and is electronically switched. it is using less power and resources of the processor and associated circuitry. it may be possible actually to throughput data at a higher rate.
the inherent problem is ambiguity in the R5's documentation.
My 'logic' is based in part on the precedence of the 1DXIII, which drops to 12 bits in electronic shutter mode. IIRC, some cameras from other manufacturers are similar.
I agree the information from the manual is not clear.
RAW: RAW, C-RAW 14 bit (14-bit with Mechanical shutter and Electronic 1st Curtain, 13-bit A/D conversion with H+ mode, 12-bit A/D conversion with Electronic shutter, Canon original RAW 3rd edition)
RAW: RAW, C-RAW 14 bit (14-bit with Mechanical shutter and Electronic 1st Curtain, 12-bit A/D conversion with Electronic shutter, Canon original RAW 3rd edition)
JPEG: 2 compression options RAW: RAW, C-RAW 14 bit RAW, C-RAW 14 bit (14-bit with Mechanical shutter and Electronic 1st Curtain, 13-bit A/D conversion with H+ mode, 12-bit A/D conversion with Electronic shutter,, Canon original RAW 3rd edition) HEIF: 10bit HEIF is available in HDR shooting with [HDR PQ] set to [Enable] Complies with Exif 2.31 and Design rule for Camera File system 2.0 Complies with Digital Print Order Format [DPOF] Version 1.1
you can't cherry pick or remove from that statement like that it is quite disingenuous. in doing so it leaves one to believe that it is referring to a RAW shooting mode. when it is actually referring to a file type.
the statement is actually saying. there are 2 ways to convert a RAW file to a JPEG file in camera: the JPEG file type is derived from a RAW or CRAW file type and shall be 14 bits if shot in the Mechanical Shutter or 1st Curtain mode and shall be a 13 bit A/D conversion if shot in the H+ mode the JPEG (converted from 14 bit RAW or CRAW) shall be a 12 bit A/D conversion if shot with the Electronic Shutter.
No, you've misinterpreted. It also doesn't help that there is a lack of proper punctuation by Canon to separate Jpeg, RAW and HEIF lines. On the R6 spec list, the Jpeg line is on its own, RAW is a new line, HEIF is a new line.
Go to page 136 of the R5 manual and you will see that for in-camera Jpeg shooting, there are TWO compression options - fine and standard, represented by a smooth curved triangle and coarse/jagged curved triangle. This is unlike the 1D series cameras that allow you to dial in desired Jpeg compression based on a 1 to 10 scale.
AFAIK, these Jpegs are 8-bit.
It's the RAW files that will have varying bit depth based on mechanical shutter, continuous high +, or electronic shutter. Those will probably all be packed in a 14-bit file, though some will be lower bit depth.
RAW: RAW, C-RAW 14 bit (14-bit with Mechanical shutter and Electronic 1st Curtain, 13-bit A/D conversion with H+ mode, 12-bit A/D conversion with Electronic shutter, Canon original RAW 3rd edition)
RAW: RAW, C-RAW 14 bit (14-bit with Mechanical shutter and Electronic 1st Curtain, 12-bit A/D conversion with Electronic shutter, Canon original RAW 3rd edition)
