p.1 #1 · M10-R Thoughts from Steve Huff - Full of It
Go read Steve Huff's new musings about the Leica M10-R and then come back and read this. He has obviously turned off comments on his own article as he knew this was coming.
I use, and still love my Leica M9-P (Black Dot Edition) and recently had it serviced and the sensor replaced due to some rot. I NEVER plan to get rid of this camera. Why am I at all interested in the Leica M10-R?
Resolution at least equal to the lenses in my line-up (currently 28 Lux, 35 Lux, 50 Lux and 90 Cron).
Ability to crop as I shoot street and the ability to capture a moment is important - composition can be "tweaked" later.
Increased ISO response over the M10
Increased dynamic range over the M10
This is why I am interested.
Your article states that you do not like the new M as it is not really what Leica is all about. Increased resolution is somehow a technological achievement that surpasses the purity of Leica. While I shoot the M9 which has a resolution of only 18 megapixels, I can easily tell you I am not getting the most out of my lenses or images at that resolution. 35mm film has a resolution of about 30-40 mpixels (depending on stock). At least this seems to be the top-end when scanning 35mm film and extracting detail from it. So, a 40 mpixel Leica should be the closest equivalent to film as far as resolution goes.
Now, on to the real issue. In your article you mention at the same time, how you love the Leica SL, a poor "me too" camera made in conjunction with Panasonic so that Leica could have a lot of the new tech that you so roundly don't want to see in the M camera. However, the SL and now SL2 have never been real competitors. In fact the new Canon EOS R5 at a much lower price-point looks to trounce it handily.
While I agree that the benefit of Leica is its simplicity and that it makes me slow down and think about photography more, I don't see anything in the new M10-R which gets in the way of this. In fact, the only thing it does is give you more back for your experience. More to work with later.
I for one am really glad we did not see IBIS and other such nonsense in the new M10-R and hope we never do. However, your argument that somehow less resolution is superior is simply fallacious on its face.
p.1 #2 · M10-R Thoughts from Steve Huff - Full of It
"I have to be honest here. This will be quite different from other posts or videos you may have seen on the new Leica. I’m not a fan, so be warned. I also edited this post from what it was as I probably was in a mood when I wrote it, and therefore a couple of the things I said were not fair. With that, on we go." -Steve Huff
Not sure I've read such a warning before...here comes a bumpy ride!
P.S. Not that the M10-R is the perfect camera for everyone and with that price an easy target, but sometimes I wonder if certain regulars didn't get invited to the pre-lease review Beta testing party and maybe some hard feelings?
p.1 #3 · M10-R Thoughts from Steve Huff - Full of It
It's the same discussion which occurred already in 2013 after Sony released the first camera with 36 MP FF sensor after Nikon came out with the D800 a year earlier. Lots of arguing especially from camera brands which did not yet come up with a similar resolution in FF sensors at the time (Canon). Same alley: high MP is not needed, it does not improve the photography, is just makes photography more difficult without visible gain, you only need it when printing large, it's just a hype for nothing etc etc.
Time forward, only after a few years most of those who argued like this bought silently their own Sony or Nikon high res FF camera and post photos with this kind of gear since. Rarely anyone ever went back to 24 MP. Suddenly those cameras were more in demand than the 24 MP counterparts. 24 MP FF can still work fine for many, but it is outdated tech at this point. The question is only if your vision is better off with low res or if you can max out the high res sensor. I can see both: street photographers probably won't care too much about high MP. Studio and landscape photographers on the other hand do.
After the Leica M10 was released, I questioned in the Leica online forum why Leica shooters on one hand want often to have the best high resolving glass but limit themselves with 24 MP sensor resolution. I suggested > 3 years ago that Leica approaches this similar to Sony by installing parallel product lines to choose from - what we seen similarly with the A7, the A7R, and A7S lines. Maybe even a monochrome line by itself. I was mostly booed for this suggestion. Now Leica did exactly this - the M10(-P), the M10-M, and M10-R to choose from.
Following the high res FF sensor market closely for many years now, I predict that the M10-R will become a big success for Leica no matter of initial people stating that the high res is not needed. Let's get real: this will be the new standard sensor resolution in upcoming years. But as I said, 24 MP might be sufficient also for many others especially when being price considerate.
Lets wait and see Steve's video in 2022 about the M10-R which he somehow "got" and loves.....
p.1 #4 · M10-R Thoughts from Steve Huff - Full of It
retrofocus wrote:
It's the same discussion which occurred already in 2013 after Sony released the first camera with 36 MP FF sensor after Nikon came out with the D800 a year earlier. Lots of arguing especially from camera brands which did not yet come up with a similar resolution in FF sensors at the time (Canon). Same alley: high MP is not needed, it does not improve the photography, is just makes photography more difficult without visible gain, you only need it when printing large, it's just a hype for nothing etc etc.
Time forward, only after a few years most of those who argued like this bought silently their own Sony or Nikon high res FF camera and post photos with this kind of gear since. Rarely anyone ever went back to 24 MP. Suddenly those cameras were more in demand than the 24 MP counterparts. 24 MP FF can still work fine for many, but it is outdated tech at this point. The question is only if your vision is better off with low res or if you can max out the high res sensor. I can see both: street photographers probably won't care too much about high MP. Studio and landscape photographers on the other hand do.
After the Leica M10 was released, I questioned in the Leica online forum why Leica shooters one one hand want often to have the best high resolving glass but limit themselves with 24 MP sensor resolution. I suggested > 3 years ago that Leica approaches this similar to Sony by installing parallel product lines to choose from - what we seen similarly with the A7, the A7R, and A7S lines. Maybe even a monochrome line by itself. I was mostly booed for this suggestion. Now Leica did exactly this - the M10(-P), the M10-M, and M10-R to choose from.
Following the high res FF sensor market closely for many years now, I predict that the M10-R will become a big success for Leica no matter of initial people stating that the high res is not needed. Let's get real: this will be the new standard sensor resolution in upcoming years. But as I said, 24 MP might be sufficient also for many others especially when being price considerate.
Lets wait and see Steve's video in 2022 about the M10-R which he somehow "got" and loves........Show more →
"Lets wait and see Steve's video in 2022 about the M10-R which he somehow "got" and loves....." hmmm Déjà vu ?
p.1 #6 · M10-R Thoughts from Steve Huff - Full of It
I have no desire to upgrade from my M 10s. NONE. I doubt I will own one. WIth just a few years now to retirement I will probably sell all of my color bodies when I retire and my original MM (I might keep one M 10) but I know I will be picking up an M 10 Mono but not because of the high MP count but for the way the M 10 functions and the higher ISO and DR. Probably be selling most of my glass also. One lens I will not sell is the 35 Lux FLE.
p.1 #7 · M10-R Thoughts from Steve Huff - Full of It
I am not sure how relevant Steve Huff still is as a Leica influencer...
It all happens on YouTube nowadays and Leica seem to have gotten a Leica M10-R in the hands of people who are already sympathetic to Leica and who already have an investment in Leica: Matt Day, Hugh Brownstone, The SnapChick and obviously RedDotForum.
p.1 #9 · M10-R Thoughts from Steve Huff - Full of It
I have no reason to upgrade from the M10, as my high-contrast B&W doesn't need 40MP and my color photography is not struggling for more resolution either. So, I have no desire to fight 40MP files on my 15-inch PowerBook with 16GB of RAM. Online chatter is starting to trend towards saying that dynamic range, especially in the highlights, is "much better", but I'm skeptical that the difference is decisive. Basically, I think that 24MP is still the "sweet spot."
____________________ Frog Leaping photobook: https://www.frogleaping.org
p.1 #10 · M10-R Thoughts from Steve Huff - Full of It
Mitch Alland wrote:
I have no reason to upgrade from the M10, as my high-contrast B&W doesn't need 40MP and my color photography is not struggling for more resolution either. So, I have no desire to fight 40MP files on my 15-inch PowerBook with 16GB of RAM. Online chatter is starting to trend towards saying that dynamic range, especially in the highlights, is "much better", but I'm skeptical that the difference is decisive. Basically, I think that 24MP is still the "sweet spot."
____________________ Frog Leaping photobook: https://www.frogleaping.org
p.1 #11 · M10-R Thoughts from Steve Huff - Full of It
I've owned Leica gear since I was in college in 1971. First being an M3 with 50mm Summicron. I've also owned M2, M4, M6, M7, M8, M240, M262, M10, R4, R4s, R5, R6 and R7 cameras. 21mm, 28mm, 35mm (both Summilux and Summicron), same with 50mm. I've owned 75mm Summicron, 90mm Tele-Elmarit and 135 APO. Also, CL with a few lenses for it an a Q.
Today, I own no Leica gear and shoot with a Nikon Z7.
Having said all that, I can honestly say Leica M cameras are the most sensible cameras on the market (as far as I am concerned). They leave out the non essentials that every other camera manufacturer seem to feel necessary (but I do not). Their stuff is good, the lenses are superb and the Leica image quality is better than most everything else out there with little exception. The size and handling of these cameras is as good as it gets.
I totally disagree that a 40mp sensor isn't an advantage over a 24mp one. While M10 files are very very good, I honestly feel they are no comparison for a higher mp sensor and that's the main reason I went with the Z7.
On the other hand, an M10-R is just too expensive for me. At 4 or 5 grand, I'd have an order in for one. I'd really love to go back to an M but I just cannot afford to.
It almost makes me wonder at times if Steve Huff has found a way to talk himself out of having to spend so much money on camera gear. I think a lot of people put down Leica because they just want an excuse instead of admitting that the stuff is just not worth the money ... even though a lot of it is better than any competition. That's how I feel. It IS better, I'd love to own it, but I just cannot afford it anymore.
p.1 #15 · M10-R Thoughts from Steve Huff - Full of It
davewolfs wrote:
People are just upset because this camera hasn’t really improved since the M8. Its ok to expect more.
I get the feeling that this is either a joke or that you have no idea what you are talking about.
But I would like to know who these "people" are and why you talk for them?
Because they are a lot of Leica users and they think differently. Same as reviewers.
So really, who are these very discreet "people", why do they keep silent, how do you know them and how did they make you their representative
p.1 #17 · M10-R Thoughts from Steve Huff - Full of It
Doctors, dentists and some lawyers 🤣
pmeheut wrote:
I get the feeling that this is either a joke or that you have no idea what you are talking about.
But I would like to know who these "people" are and why you talk for them?
Because they are a lot of Leica users and they think differently. Same as reviewers.
So really, who are these very discreet "people", why do they keep silent, how do you know them and how did they make you their representative
p.1 #18 · M10-R Thoughts from Steve Huff - Full of It
Interestingly, I find 40+MP as the sweet spot. When I first used an A7R then A7RII, then Z7, I knew it was a game changer for me. I hate zooms and suddenly this sweet spot allowed me to run with one or two primes and crop for a composition that suited me. After decades of shooting, this was revolutionary to me. I own Leica M's, both film and digital, but I also love mirrorless because I have a bunch of old manual glass of different makes that are fun to exercise. I wanted the SL when I got the Z7 instead because I had already a taste of my new sweet spot and with the SL2 having both that and IBIS, I sold all my Nikon gear to get one. Why? I'm tired of trading up every year. I want a camera that will last me a long time now and I think the new sweet spot in resolution for me will last as long as I've got a keen eye on shooting. Say what you want, but the camera race by the Japanese manufacturers is too fast for me anymore. I want to settle down with one old gun.
Leica is damned if they do and damned if they don't. I'm proud of them for jumping in with both feet to high res cameras and new tech while trying to keep their gear ergonomic, sensible and simple, not to mention lasting quality. I'm no richer than the lot of folks here, but I'm also the guy who lived with crates as furniture when I was a young man until I could afford furniture with some craftsman quality that would last, much of which I still have. To each his own.
As I write this, my Marantz 2285B Receiver I bought new in 1978 is being overhauled to last another 40 years. Of course, I'll be long gone by then...
My Canon New F1 I bought in 1981 is also still with me and clicking away nicely.
p.1 #19 · M10-R Thoughts from Steve Huff - Full of It
As a past and current Leica owner, the higher MP could turn me off a bit. Higher MP alone doesn't bother me as I'm close to buying a 50mp Fuji, but for my Leica use it does. It's possible the simplicity can get lost when dealing with 60mb DNG files. I've done a hell of a lot with film/digital Leica bodies and never once wanted larger files.The only thing I ever wanted was a better color profile on the cmos sensors and continued better low light performance. I know the M10 is better, but there's other FF cameras that have much better output. I shoot street photography with a Leica and I rarely crop. Actually street should require minimal cropping regardless of camera. I also don't edit street shots much either. That said, if I shot anything else that required greater detail such as landscapes, then higher MP is definitely a great asset. Really comes down to what you are shooting and there's right tools for some and wrong tools for others.
p.1 #20 · M10-R Thoughts from Steve Huff - Full of It
The reality is he has given up on photography on his site, as his gear source has obviously dried up.
He criticizes the cost of the new Leica, addressing it as a frivolity in these current pandemic times.
Yet has no issue pushing $30,000 speakers in his reviews. Cuz that obviously is now where he is getting his sponsorship money.
