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Archive 2020 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons

  
 
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #1 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons


I have the 5DSR (51mpx no AA) and A7Rii (42mpx and no AA). I like to print large and crop - typically 48x32. And 2/3 of my effort is landscape and the remainder is big still high contrast (black on white sky grizzlies, moose or white polar bears on bright background).

I use my 5dsr with ts17, ts24 and 24-105/f4 mostly for less challenging locations near the road.
I use the A7Rii with 28-70 and Laowa 15 Shift for long hikes. Sometimes renting Sony 12-24.
I use my 5dsr with my 600f4v2, 200-400, and 100-400 for pursuing large animals

My question here is - I am tempted to buy the R5 because:
Dynamic Range is proported to be 2 stops better than 5dsr - helpful but not necessary because of AEB/blending
I can use adapter with flip in nd to avoid big filters systems on TS17, Ts24 - nice but not necessary
R5 is definitely better than 5DSR (12 fps vs 5, buffer to 87 instead of 15, animal eye following) for large animals
[5DSR histogram by itself is so slow to clear in burst that its practically blind shooting on exposure ]
The R5 with 24-105 non f4 would be >500grams lighter than 5DSR/24-105f4 and comparable to A7R for backpacking
This lets me reduce to one brand and I am not fond of Sony for lots of reasons.[dust performance, menu, 12bit on bulb...]

However, I am not excited by the AA filter. The 45mpx vs 51mpx already reduces resolution by ~5% and then adding the AA filter notionally reduces it another ~10%?.

In a video interview someone (dustin abbot?) indicated that canon was claiming the 45mpx/AA/R5 out resolved the 5DSR 51mpx .

Anyone have knowledge of how 45/AA out resolving 51/no AA could be true theoretically or whether its shows up in data? And whether canon actually said it? [I remember the Nikon d800e (36mpx/no AA) out resolving the d800 (36mpx/AA) by a significant amount in tests which suggests a large loss in resolution with AA]

Maybe the 5DSR AA is thick and reversed and this increases distortion as compared to just 1 thin AA?

----------------------

Update: R5 does look like more resolution and cleaner !!! But difference lens, who knows how 5DSR was set up for vibration.

But reassuring to me - who ordered the R5.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=canon_eosr5&attr13_1=canon_eosr&attr13_2=canon_eos5dsr&attr13_3=canon_eos5ds&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=6400&attr16_1=3200&attr16_2=3200&attr16_3=6400&normalization=compare&widget=745&x=-0.27216264425210085&y=-0.5786953144298883

Edited on Jul 27, 2020 at 09:38 AM · View previous versions



Jul 10, 2020 at 10:20 AM
Greg Schneider
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p.1 #2 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons


Canon Japan makes the claim here: https://cweb.canon.jp/eos/your-eos/product/eosr/r5/index.html

Translated per Google:

Adopts a newly developed effective pixel number up to about 45 million pixels 35 mm full size CMOS sensor.
In combination with high-performance image engine DIGIC X and RF lens,
image quality improvement is pursued from resolution, noise, optical characteristics, all elements. Achieved the highest EOS resolution performance *1 *2 .

*1 For Canon-made interchangeable lens digital cameras released as of July 8, 2020 . Canon research.
*2 Confirmed with the CIPA resolution chart conforming to ISO12233.



Jul 10, 2020 at 10:28 AM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #3 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons


Greg Schneider wrote:
Canon Japan makes the claim here: https://cweb.canon.jp/eos/your-eos/product/eosr/r5/index.html

Translated per Google:

Adopts a newly developed effective pixel number up to about 45 million pixels 35 mm full size CMOS sensor.
In combination with high-performance image engine DIGIC X and RF lens,
image quality improvement is pursued from resolution, noise, optical characteristics, all elements. Achieved the highest EOS resolution performance *1 *2 .

*1 For Canon-made interchangeable lens digital cameras released as of July 8, 2020 . Canon research.
*2 Confirmed with the CIPA resolution chart conforming to ISO12233.


Thanks Greg - you have better Japanese than me - that suggests that the image improvement is related to IS, RF lens iq gains. Which suggests more resolution for off tripod.

My main lens are ts17 and ts24 and I would still use on tripod so Digic x and IS and RF are not helpful for landscape. 5DSR would still significantly outresolve for landscape because of AA (~ >-10%) and 51v45 (~ -5%) unless there is something I am missing.

[D800e 35effective mpx vs D800 28 effective mpx - with sigma 85mm F1.4 DG HSM A Nikon - https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/ 25% difference in resolution ]

Edited on Jul 10, 2020 at 11:50 AM · View previous versions



Jul 10, 2020 at 10:55 AM
Greg Schneider
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p.1 #4 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons


Google is my Japanese.

Will be interesting to see comparisons. The 1Dx3 has a redesigned AA filter which seems quite promising and an improvement. If that tech is in the R5 is may well be rather close to the 5DSR from a sensor perspective?



Jul 10, 2020 at 11:34 AM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #5 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons


Greg Schneider wrote:
Google is my Japanese.

Will be interesting to see comparisons. The 1Dx3 has a redesigned AA filter which seems quite promising and an improvement. If that tech is in the R5 is may well be rather close to the 5DSR from a sensor perspective?


This issue only matters for really high end lens because otherwise 51mpx vs 45 is not available because its lens limited but:

AA d800 vs d800e no AA caused >>10% degradation. [Line to line resolution is more conducive to resolution tests and some added resolution is noise that is mistaken for resolution] but even if its 10% AA loss plus 5% for mpx - is significant for printing large.
[D800e 35effective mpx vs D800 28 effective mpx - with sigma 85mm F1.4 DG HSM A Nikon - https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/ 25% difference in resolution ]

I am hopeful but pessimistic. I would like to see some resolution comparisons. 5DSR vs R5 on a really good lens.


Edited on Jul 10, 2020 at 12:13 PM · View previous versions



Jul 10, 2020 at 11:55 AM
AvianScott
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p.1 #6 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons


The 5DsR does have an AA filter, the effects of it are canceled by another filter. The R5 purportedly has a similar AA filter, but the canceling effect is actually better than that of the 5DsR thus giving the R5 the appearance of having more resolution.

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/features/canon-eos-r5-vs-r6

"The 45MP sensor in the R5 is a brand new design, and Canon claims that it’s actually the highest-resolving sensor it has ever produced – delivering detail even higher than that of the Canon EOS 5DS / R, which has a 50.6MP sensor. This is because it features the same redesigned low-pass filter seen in the flagship Canon EOS-1D X Mark III, with 16-point subsampling that results in supreme image quality."



Jul 10, 2020 at 11:58 AM
alundeb
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p.1 #7 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons


We need to distinguish between resolving power (maximum detail) and resolution measured at a specific contrast ratio. The latter will depend on lens, AA filter etc, but the resolving power will always be pixel limited with an excellent lens, except for in areas problematic for the lens. The desired contrast can be restored with sharpening. For resolving power, there is no substitution for megapixels. Switching to the R5 for increased resolution will always be a downgrade in resolving power, the only gain is less need for sharpening. What is more interesting, is that the R5 will be better than even the 5DS (with AA filter) for avoiding aliasing, if it has the new 16-way AA filter. Bottom line, I would pick the R5 over the 5DS, but already have the 5DSR.


Jul 10, 2020 at 12:05 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #8 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons


alundeb wrote:
We need to distinguish between resolving power (maximum detail) and resolution measured at a specific contrast ratio. The latter will depend on lens, AA filter etc, but the resolving power will always be pixel limited with an excellent lens, except for in areas problematic for the lens. The desired contrast can be restored with sharpening. For resolving power, there is no substitution for megapixels. Switching to the R5 for increased resolution will always be a downgrade in resolving power, the only gain is less need for sharpening. What is more interesting, is that the R5 will be better than even
...Show more

Thanks - I thought aliasing results in more need for sharpening not less? Less sharpening on R5 vs 5DS you mean? But not the 5DSR.

I agree that the R5 is likely to be better than the 5DS - they both have AA and the new AA is likely better and there is only 5% difference between R5 and 5DS in area.

But why would you not pick the 5DSR over the R5 if you wanted more resolution (avoids AA and lower mpx and sharpening).



Jul 10, 2020 at 12:09 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #9 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons


AvianScott wrote:
The 5DsR does have an AA filter, the effects of it are canceled by another filter. The R5 purportedly has a similar AA filter, but the canceling effect is actually better than that of the 5DsR thus giving the R5 the appearance of having more resolution.

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/features/canon-eos-r5-vs-r6

"The 45MP sensor in the R5 is a brand new design, and Canon claims that it’s actually the highest-resolving sensor it has ever produced – delivering detail even higher than that of the Canon EOS 5DS / R, which has a 50.6MP sensor. This is because it features the same redesigned low-pass filter seen in
...Show more

5DSR has the cancelling but the R5 does not? Or it would be a R5R?

-----------------
Just to be clear above.

An AA generally is used to blur at the pixel level so that moire can be avoided. This causes the need to sharpen to improve the perceived resolution for presentation.

The 5DSR does have an AA filter and then another filter that reverses it - thus it is equivalent to no AA. [Thats what I meant by no AA.]

Whereas I don't think the R5 has the same reversal. But it has a much more sophisticated AA filter.

So the questions are:
1) Does the AA/ reverse AA of 5DSR cause distortion that reduced resolution
2) Is the new AA on r5 better than the AA/reverse AA for resolution on 5DSR

Edited on Jul 10, 2020 at 12:56 PM · View previous versions



Jul 10, 2020 at 12:17 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #10 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons


There is a very good article on the new AA at
https://www.strollswithmydog.com/canon-high-res-gd-lpf-aa/

it basically concludes that its not apparent how the new AA would achieve more resolution than the old AA - clearly it would result in something different but it might achieve more sometimes and less sometimes but the proof is in the pudding if the digic X does some magic

Which suggests the whole comparison Canon is claiming is old AA vs new AA - not AA vs AA/AAreversal

Translating to its likely that the 5DSR out resolves R5 by a significant amount because of the reversal of AA. Based on less AA affects and more mpx. But I am hopeful to be wrong.

[Maybe instead of 25% reduction in resolution we see in d800vsd800e it might only be 1% (notional small effect without any basis for discussion) reduction in resolution associated with AA of R5 vs 5DSR AA/reverse AA.]



Jul 10, 2020 at 12:40 PM
AJSJones
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p.1 #11 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons


The Nikon and Canon "AA-less" filters (D800e and 5DsR) are both "canceled" style. The d800 and D800e had the same filter stacks except in one the second AA filter was rotated around the optical axis relative to the "normal" orientation and undid the effect of the first (brought the two dots back together instead of making 4 dots). Filter stack thickness is a critical parameter (LensRentals blog has some info on that here), so having a thinner stack may be detrimental overall. I think if the R5 had the new 16 point AA filter we would have heard about it.

In any case, a significant amount of the effect of the AA filter can be reversed in PP - its PSF is known and decolvolution sharpening is quite fast these days. Even the old 200,0.3,0 sharpen routine recommended by Chuck Westfall returns a lot. I was curious a long time ago, so these examples don't use deconvolution but showed, to me, at least, the effect of the 1 pixel AA was not as bad as I had expected and that much could be recovered. These are 100% crops: start with RGB image, duplicate layer, displace one pixel up, opacity-0>50%, flatten, duplicate, displace one pixel left, set opacity 50% flatten, to simulate the AA, then sharpened. (Ideally this would have been done on the "un-de-mosaiced" file but the effect is clearly much less severe than the 1 pixel Gaussian blur.)


This article specifically addresses increasing the sensor resolution and how different lebneses perform and includes a useful evaluation of the effects of AA filters (yay, with pictures!) The loss due to AA filters is detectable but not severe, and much can be recovered. Using numbers like 5% or 10% "resolution loss" is a little too simplified/ill-specified to do the right comparisons. There is a comparison towards the end of the article of an "excelllent lens" on sensors with increasing resolution with and without an OLPF and it's hard to evemn see the curves shift at the higher spatial frequencies. It's a great article and worth the time. DigiLloyd showed some deconvolution sharpening examples
here a while ago. (I might be able to get some Topaz InFocus - a form of deconvolution) examples when I get back to my desktop

Bottom line - OLPFs are not as bad as many people "think". Of course, I'll let you decide, once you've compared deconvolution sharpening on an AA image with a non-AA image (which can't take as much PP sharpening) whether that small residual difference is a dealbreaker, even at your print size It may be, but it's only one factor in your decision making process
(Full disclosure, I have a 5DsR and those same lenses you use for "roadside" venues, although my printer is only 24" so my prints are 24x 30, 36, 48 and 60, and if the 5R came with a canceled AA filter as an option at a premium, I would probably decline these days, since I have "mastered" the Topaz InFocus sharpening plug-in and my prints are still generally printer resolution-limited rather than image pixel quality-limited -often stitched).



Jul 10, 2020 at 01:06 PM
alundeb
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p.1 #12 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons




Scott Stoness wrote:
Thanks - I thought aliasing results in more need for sharpening not less? Less sharpening on R5 vs 5DS you mean? But not the 5DSR.

I agree that the R5 is likely to be better than the 5DS - they both have AA and the new AA is likely better and there is only 5% difference between R5 and 5DS in area.

But why would you not pick the 5DSR over the R5 if you wanted more resolution (avoids AA and lower mpx and sharpening).

Sorry for complicating things. I would pick the R5 because of dynamic range and despite slightly lower resolution. But it is not enough for me to upgrade now.



Jul 10, 2020 at 01:47 PM
AJSJones
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p.1 #13 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons


alundeb wrote:
Sorry for complicating things. I would pick the R5 because of dynamic range and despite slightly lower resolution. But it is not enough for me to upgrade now.

I think I'm in the same boat...



Jul 10, 2020 at 01:57 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #14 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons


Thanks - I think AJSJones and Alundeb are collectively saying:
if you were choosing a new camera today you would pick a R5 over a 5DSR despite the slight loss of mpx but given you have 5dsr its not incrementally worth it.
5% loss of resolution is not significant because you can sharpen more on R5 to make up for aliasing losses (implicitly you are saying DXO is testing wrong because they should have sharpened D800 more to compare)

I would like the R5 for weight (and getting rid of Sony) and big animals (dynamic range, buffer clearing/capacity, and 12fps and faster clear on histogram). I am fussing too much because I perceive that the 5DSR has much more than 5% gain with really good lens (my 600v2, 200-400). It seems a shame to step back. But none of my most used landscape UWA lens are likely to see the difference between 51 and 45mpx in landscape because uwa are challenging to design vs long lens.

Based on the above I will just buy R5 and:
R5 would always be default for animals because of buffer, dynamic range, eye following
R5 would always be default for landscape because of filter avoidance, flippy screen, nd flip in, and weight for my old knees.
5DSR would be used as backup, cold weather and 2nd body for wildlife so I don't have to switch lens (100-400 on one and 200-400 on the other).
Sell my Sony stuff that I don't like but have for light weight backpacking
And generally take an undetermined hit on resolution for the sake of better features.

Now I just have to see if R5 is worth buying because there are no more wildlife opportunities in Alberta after mid September (except Polar bears in Manitoba annual visit) and snowy owls.

Thank you.



Jul 10, 2020 at 02:31 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #15 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons


Okay I debated too long. My camera store tells me that there are 50 people on a list and Canon is allocating bodies on the basis of pre-paid non refundable basis and its not clear when any will be delivered given demand and Covid. So to have better certainty I would have to pay now. In other words the wait list has little value.

It does not appeal to me to put $5000 in someone else hands given the risk of Chapter 11 everywhere.

It does not appeal to me to spend $5000 that might not get delivered until after September when my animals are gone. And maybe the R5R with 85mpx will be pending which is better for my usage anyway.

I will wait and pay a premium to get one or not depending on the timing. My current collection will have to suffice.



Jul 10, 2020 at 03:06 PM
arbitrage
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p.1 #16 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons


Scott Stoness wrote:
Okay I debated too long. My camera store tells me that there are 50 people on a list and Canon is allocating bodies on the basis of pre-paid non refundable basis and its not clear when any will be delivered given demand and Covid. So to have better certainty I would have to pay now. In other words the wait list has little value.

It does not appeal to me to put $5000 in someone else hands given the risk of Chapter 11 everywhere.

It does not appeal to me to spend $5000 that might not get delivered until after September
...Show more

There are other stores that are not charging ahead of time. I just dropped off the top of CameraCanada's list as I will wait for the 100-500 in September before deciding if I want to dive back into Canon. If you want an R5 without putting down a deposit then contact CameraCanada...they have always had the earliest stock and most stock of all the hard to find cameras (like D850, 500PF, 5D3, 400DOII, 600GM etc). Don't bother with TCS...they are hopeless for preorders and getting good numbers in to satisfy demand.



Jul 10, 2020 at 03:13 PM
AJSJones
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p.1 #17 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons


Scott Stoness wrote:
Thanks - I think AJSJones and Alundeb are collectively saying:
if you were choosing a new camera today you would pick a R5 over a 5DSR despite the slight loss of mpx but given you have 5dsr its not incrementally worth it.
5% loss of resolution is not significant because you can sharpen more on R5 to make up for aliasing losses (implicitly you are saying DXO is testing wrong because they should have sharpened D800 more to compare)

I would like the R5 for weight (and getting rid of Sony) and big animals (dynamic range, buffer clearing/capacity, and 12fps and
...Show more
I don't think DxO is "wrong" - they just don't try to predict or account for any user's post processing. Other than that, yeah Improved DR (magnitude yet TBD) other "modern features", weight, system unity etc all add up.

As you say, for the wider lenses, the resolution is already compromised (simply by optical considerations) to the point where sensor resolution issues, even without an AA, are less limiting. These charts of MTF versus spatial frequency are taken from Brandon's article and the "excellent" lens might be your super tele (he used Zeiss Otus at f/4 as the example) and the "good lens might be the UWA (he used the same lens but at f/2). The effect of the OLPF on the system MTF is very subtle in these. So the remaining difference is the MP count. I'd guess that that loss would still not be a big one- depends on how close you (or others) scrutinize the prints you make!



For these sensors, the Nyquist frequencies are about 43, 72, 86, 130, and 172 lp/mm, respectively. In the graph, each line becomes semitransparent beyond the Nyquist frequency for that sensor signifying the camera really couldn’t resolve that.




Jul 10, 2020 at 03:26 PM
AJSJones
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p.1 #18 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons


Scott Stoness wrote:
Thanks - I think AJSJones and Alundeb are collectively saying:
if you were choosing a new camera today you would pick a R5 over a 5DSR despite the slight loss of mpx but given you have 5dsr its not incrementally worth it.
5% loss of resolution is not significant because you can sharpen more on R5 to make up for aliasing losses (implicitly you are saying DXO is testing wrong because they should have sharpened D800 more to compare)

I would like the R5 for weight (and getting rid of Sony) and big animals (dynamic range, buffer clearing/capacity, and 12fps and
...Show more
I will be waiting, too. My 5DsR will do nicely till I decide whether the R5 benefits add up

I just did a quicky comparison. Not sure how well the crops below survive the transmission through Fototime but these are from a 5D2 (has an AA filter) . The crop comparison is a radius 1 TopazInFocus sharpening from the centre of the big image and it's noticeable in prints- no sharpening during raw conversion and it still has ETTR levels(!). YMMV








Jul 10, 2020 at 03:49 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #19 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons


Scott Stoness wrote:
Based on the above I will just buy R5 and:
R5 would always be default for animals because of buffer, dynamic range, eye following
R5 would always be default for landscape because of filter avoidance, flippy screen, nd flip in, and weight for my old knees.
5DSR would be used as backup, cold weather and 2nd body for wildlife so I don't have to switch lens (100-400 on one and 200-400 on the other).
Sell my Sony stuff that I don't like but have for light weight backpacking
And generally take an undetermined hit on resolution for the sake of better features.

Now
...Show more

I agree with your reasoning above. The R5 potentially brings so many in-the-field improvements over the 5DsR that IMO offset any potential resolution loss. And it lets you streamline to a single brand/system.

As to whether or not you should get it now - if it's likely you won't receive delivery for some time, then wait, for the very valid reasons you stated. I'm also deferring purchase... unless an opportunity arises at a significantly sub-MSRP. But not holding my breath.



Jul 10, 2020 at 03:55 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #20 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons


arbitrage wrote:
There are other stores that are not charging ahead of time. I just dropped off the top of CameraCanada's list as I will wait for the 100-500 in September before deciding if I want to dive back into Canon. If you want an R5 without putting down a deposit then contact CameraCanada...they have always had the earliest stock and most stock of all the hard to find cameras (like D850, 500PF, 5D3, 400DOII, 600GM etc). Don't bother with TCS...they are hopeless for preorders and getting good numbers in to satisfy demand.


Thanks Geoff - you were right but they said 50 ordered/likely September in 3rd batch if ordered now. I will wait and see if I can get at a premium in August. After September I can wait to May and would just be selling R5 to buy R5R85mpx then anyway.And I am concerned that the smaller body won't be good for winter anyway(@-35c Sony is a lousy winter camera compared to 5Dsr/5Div. Sony a7r and a7rii both regularly brick on me for northern lights where DSLR would not in winter with modest cold. Every time I took a7rii backcountry skiing it either had to be snuggled close to body or not useful) so it would likely sit idle for winter. If I can get back to whitehorse or Yellowknife this winter (with COVID restrictions) it will be with 5DSR (that worked for me at -40 for 4 hours in Yellowknife).



Jul 10, 2020 at 04:21 PM
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