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Archive 2020 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

vdo1
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p.75 #1 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

alundeb wrote:
The victory goes to you, for creating the straw man of the thread.

I'll have to relinquish the trophy to 1bwana1, for actually starting the "perception of equal image quality is all that counts" nonsense. I only checked on his theory (to find nothing but the usual hot air).

Sep 08, 2020 at 08:08 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.75 #2 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

alundeb wrote:
Hi Steve,

I would think that all owners of the R5 or R6 will also have at least one adapter, and for the comparison to be for comparable optics (The RF 85/1.2 really is a notch above any 85/1.4 lens), I would go for the EF 85/1.4 IS price. The adapter could sit on that lens for the whole assignment, so no loss in convenience.
It is also strange to compare used prices for one brand to new prices for another.
So I don't see how cost really is a differentiating factor between these kits at all.

Yes, the examples I have given do not include adapting EF lenses, which one could reasonably do to save money as all reports suggest they work well on the R cameras. There are lots of ways to create a good and fairly comparable kits and not all of them show price advantages for Sony. Some would actually show price advantages for Canon. I purposely allows a substantial price advantage for Sony to demonstrate that even if you do, that cost spread out over the use of the equipment and reasonably depreciated leads to relatively small differences in annual income. Basically, I think the price of Canon vs. Sony is not going to being anything close to a big deal.

Sep 08, 2020 at 08:23 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.75 #3 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

Holger wrote:
I agree partly. As I said the big majority of German photographers work in a so-called Kleingewerbe (doing it part-time, effectively). They are allowed to earn only a bit over 22000 Euros a year in *gross revenue* (was a bit over 17k until recently) and can't deduct sales tax.
The better wedding photographers doing it full-time get to 100k and up in gross revenue, of course. They are all heavily invested in a system. Switching isn't very wise for them. The gear was used in battle, so selling it gives you 1/3 of the initial price at most. People starting out...Show more →

I think we are in basic agreement. Part-time photographers are of course in a different position. What is their other work? Would they buy the equipment anyway as a hobbyist? The answers to those questions no doubt are a big deal to such photographers. If they have little income from other work and they wouldn't buy the gear already as a hobbyist, then no doubt they have to be super cautious in their spending. For that group, however, it seems to me we aren't talking about people who are considering an R5 or even R6. If they are going mirrorless FF they are likely to consider either a Canon RP, maybe a Nikon Z5, or an older Sony A7 series camera. More likely if they are considering mirrorless they are likely to go with an APS-C camera. Picking an older DSLR seems also seems like a reasonable choice for people in this group, but a Canon R5 would only be for those part-timers who have a good main income and would spend the money as a hobbyist anyway. So for those really considering the R5 I just don't see the price compared to Sony as being a big limiting factor. Note I am not saying it is something that merits no consideration at all, just that it makes zero sense to say that the price difference is going to make or break the business.

Sep 08, 2020 at 08:33 AM

Charlie N
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p.75 #4 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

alundeb wrote:
That sounds like exactly the argument people had against the FF E-mount when it was new. And look at where it is now.

The counter arguments are also the same.

Third party manufacturers can make manual focus lenses for the RF mount if they want to. Probably they can also use the EF communications protocol that they already know, for excahnging some info. Possibly also AF lenses.

The RF monut is not open, but electrically it is a dual mount, EF pins and protocol with RF extension. It is not like the third party manufacturers didn't make lenses for the EF mount just...Show more →
I dont understand the counter argument? These imaginary RF lenses do not exist. Adapting is a pain in the butt and takes away the size advantage of mirrorless systems. Open E-mount incentivized third party to adapt quicker than ever. Tamron has 7 full frame (soon 8) lenses, Sigma has 5?, not including APS-C variants. These are direct bolt on, no adapter, full native lenses. That's a lot of selection that is not only priced attractively, but many offerings in small size.

Sony users could adapt Canon EF ages ago, and many did because they had not choice. Take a look in the camera gear thread, hardly any still adapt......... because it's a terrible experience. If we were talking about the ability to adapt, Nikon Z wins it hands down. Ability to Adapt Nikon F, EF, E, and all the other vintage lenses.... it would be a horrible talking point.

Sep 08, 2020 at 04:22 PM

chiron
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p.75 #5 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

Sep 08, 2020 at 04:39 PM

MedicineMan404
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p.75 #6 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

Sep 08, 2020 at 06:36 PM

Charlie N
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p.75 #7 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

MedicineMan404 wrote:
Incorrect.
I adapt 400DOii to a9 and it is 99% native in AF/AF tracking. This via the MC-11.
Now what is a pain is adapting Nikkor to Sony via Commlite. It was OK once but sucks now.
So which Sony do you own and which Canon you own are you adapting?

I only have a few left 150-600, 600 f5.6 nikon old prime, 100-300 contax zeiss. I dont have a problem with the AF, the problem is USING the adapter. Say with two EF lenses and two RF lenses, mixing and matching. For instance, if you're using the EF 35 f1.4, RF 85, EF 135 f2. You'de have to have two RF adapters to have a seemless experience. Add on a 16-35 f4, you'de need 3 adapters for a seemless experience. AF isnt my problem, using the adapters are.

every single adapted lens I own has it's own adapter, and for many, it simply would not make sense. For instance, if the 17-28, 24 GM, 28-200, FE 85, SY 24 f2.8, FE 35 f2.8, all came from adapting, they would be much larger and lose their mirrorless advantage. Those are my core lenses currently depending on situation.

if you're using big glass, then the adapter may feel very minor (like on my older 600, I forget it's adapted sometimes).

Sep 08, 2020 at 07:06 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.75 #8 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

Charlie N wrote:
I dont understand the counter argument? These imaginary RF lenses do not exist. Adapting is a pain in the butt and takes away the size advantage of mirrorless systems. Open E-mount incentivized third party to adapt quicker than ever. Tamron has 7 full frame (soon 8) lenses, Sigma has 5?, not including APS-C variants. These are direct bolt on, no adapter, full native lenses. That's a lot of selection that is not only priced attractively, but many offerings in small size.

Sony users could adapt Canon EF ages ago, and many did because they had not choice. Take a...Show more →

Charlie, I think you are missing alundeb's point. He is arguing that if a company knows how to make EF mount AF lenses (and certainly Sigma, Tamron, Tokina, and Samyang do), then they know how to make RF mount AF lenses. His argument is that the similarity of the EF and RF mounts means the RF mount is in effect open because all the major manufacturers already know the protocols of the EF mount and they can use those protocols to make RF lenses. Now I have no idea if he is right, but his argument if correct does put the RF mount on the same or close to the same footing as Sony's EF--both are in essence an open mount. I say time will tell. If alundeb is right, then I expect within a couple of years the major manufacturers will make RF versions of almost all the Sony E mount lenses. Why not? If he is right they don't have to do reverse engineering they already have all the knowledge they need and they have the lens designs. Seems like a no brainer to make the lenses they already have in RF mount if he is right. I have my doubts that he is actually right and the manufacturers worry that they might not have all the protocols and might well make a lens that is dead on arrival due to a firmware change. Nevertheless, if alundeb is right his counter argument is compelling and suggests that Sony's advantage with third party lenses might well be short-lived. As I said, time will tell.

Sep 08, 2020 at 08:18 PM

vdo1
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p.75 #9 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

Sep 08, 2020 at 09:13 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.75 #10 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

vdo1 wrote:
Balderdash. "Know" is not the same as "took an informed guess". "Open" is not the same as "reverse engineered".

And "Worked on EF" is not the same as "works on RF". Here it is from the horse's mouth:

https://tinyurl.com/y5gxxa5c

Well, I did express my doubts. I see nothing in your link, however, to tell me that Sigma is saying they don't understand the EF or RF mount protocols. In fact they seem to be saying they know an awful lot about how these lenses work on both EF cameras and RF cameras. Now what they say and what they know might be two different things. My view is that we don't really know what Sigma and the other third party manufacturers really know about the Canon RF protocols, but time will tell. If they know enough to easily make RF lenses, then I would expect them to make RF versions of their Sony E mount lenses, but if they don't we may very well not see such lenses.

Sep 08, 2020 at 09:39 PM

vdo1
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p.75 #11 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

Steve Spencer wrote:
Well, I did express my doubts. I see nothing in your link, however, to tell me that Sigma is saying they don't understand the EF or RF mount protocols. In fact they seem to be saying they know an awful lot about how these lenses work on both EF cameras and RF cameras. Now what they say and what they know might be two different things. My view is that we don't really know what Sigma and the other third party manufacturers really know about the Canon RF protocols, but time will tell. If they know enough to easily...Show more →

You can easily compare though with the Sony e-mount situation:

https://tinyurl.com/y5rceku4

Quote: "This product is developed, manufactured and sold based on the specifications of E-mount which was disclosed by Sony Corporation under the license agreement with Sony Corporation."

Sep 08, 2020 at 09:47 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.75 #12 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

vdo1 wrote:
You can easily compare though with the Sony e-mount situation:

https://tinyurl.com/y5rceku4

Quote: "This product is developed, manufactured and sold based on the specifications of E-mount which was disclosed by Sony Corporation under the license agreement with Sony Corporation."

No one is questioning that they license the mount protocols from Sony. No one is saying they license the mount protocols from Canon, but the open question is whether they have learned enough about the mount protocols from the EF mount over the last 35 or so they have been using it to basically know all there is to know and knowing whatever they know is that enough to let them easily build RF mount lenses and I don't think any of us really know the answer to those questions. I think the point alundeb was making is that third partly lens makers like Sigma have learned pretty much all there is to know and that knowledge is more that sufficient to allow them to make RF mount lenses. He might be right, but I do have my doubts. I think we will really only know in time, however.

Sep 08, 2020 at 09:59 PM

vdo1
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p.75 #13 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

Steve Spencer wrote:
No one is questioning that they license the mount protocols from Sony. No one is saying they license the mount protocols from Canon, but the open question is whether they have learned enough about the mount protocols from the EF mount over the last 35 or so they have been using it to basically know all there is to know and knowing whatever they know is that enough to let them easily build RF mount lenses and I don't think any of us really know the answer to those questions. I think the point alundeb was making is that...Show more →

The reality is that Sigma has no control over the situation, Canon could make any change at any time for any reason an leave them out in the cold. To put it politely, alundeb's theory is exuberantly optimistic.

Sep 08, 2020 at 10:10 PM

Charlie N
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p.75 #14 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

Steve Spencer wrote:
Charlie, I think you are missing alundeb's point. He is arguing that if a company knows how to make EF mount AF lenses (and certainly Sigma, Tamron, Tokina, and Samyang do), then they know how to make RF mount AF lenses. His argument is that the similarity of the EF and RF mounts means the RF mount is in effect open because all the major manufacturers already know the protocols of the EF mount and they can use those protocols to make RF lenses. Now I have no idea if he is right, but his argument if correct does...Show more →

I dont think I missed it, I know third party will eventually make it to nikon, canon, etc. Nikon and Canon are making it as hard as possible for that to happen, and I only have a finite amount of time. I started photography when my oldest was born, he's 15 years now. I was never happy with the size of DSLR gear, and quite frankly, not completely happy with Sony size. There are just a TON of options with sony to keep things small, most of my kit cannot be replicated with Canon/Nikon, and that makes all the difference in the world. These are the advantages I've been living with for years, while the living is good. What I'm saying is the time element matters. Buying into a system where there is no certainty of lenses I and many prefer, is not a great selling point. It's unrealized potential, which makes all the difference in the world. Canon and Nikon do have some advantages, like the 1.2 lenses, f0.95 native, f11 super telephotos.

Sep 08, 2020 at 10:31 PM

philip_pj
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p.75 #15 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

Inertia and momentum come into play, as well as these players' track records. Canon's is one of self-aggrandising, ritualistic indolence and EF lens complacency. I agree with Charlie here. My last 5-6 years were the most productive ever thanks to Sony and the trust placed in them by makers like Cosina and the 3rd party AF lens makers.

When I first showed up here, guys were shaving mirrors to get better wide angles than anything Canon made for their DR-crippled 5DII bodies, even when they were market leaders! The EF lenses were mostly long in the tooth. Long memories help because corporations seldom change their spots.

Sony will spring into action as needed (and often if not). They sell last gen models alongside new releases, they make great sensors and own 50% plus of that key market. They update cameras while keeping them light and small and these factors make them the enthusiast's camera of choice. Lens selection is beyond reproach. IBIS, eye AF, focus aids, EVF .. all these they pioneered in full frame.

Sep 08, 2020 at 11:25 PM

alundeb
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p.75 #16 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

Lots of strong opinions here.

As I said, I never had or heard of any compatibility issues with ZE lenses.

See you in a few years, when more third party manufacturers produce RF mount lenses, in addition to a fully developed native line, let's talk about lens selection and compatibility concerns then.

Sep 09, 2020 at 01:46 AM

Beni
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p.75 #17 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

philip_pj wrote:
Inertia and momentum come into play, as well as these players' track records. Canon's is one of self-aggrandising, ritualistic indolence and EF lens complacency. I agree with Charlie here. My last 5-6 years were the most productive ever thanks to Sony and the trust placed in them by makers like Cosina and the 3rd party AF lens makers.

When I first showed up here, guys were shaving mirrors to get better wide angles than anything Canon made for their DR-crippled 5DII bodies, even when they were market leaders! The EF lenses were mostly long in the tooth. Long memories help...Show more →

I agree with you entirely in regards to the Canon of the 5DII era, I didn't shave the mirror of my 5Dc or 1Ds3 and lived with the occasional 'clunk' of it hitting my alt lenses, I sold my 5D3 due to the low ISO banding and although my original 16-35L was an excellent lens to the corners on my original 5D, it was already rather long in the tooth during the era when Nikon ate Canon's lunch with both bodies and in many cases lenses. That said it was also the era when Sigma (pre ART) was not a particularly viable or reliable alternative and the only native fit consistently superior alternative on the market at the time was Zeiss.

However I wonder if the same is still true. The mkII & III versions of their L zooms are universally excellent, the updated L primes are excellent and the R lenses are spectacular. The DR is now competitive and the R5/6 bodies are excellent still cameras and only crippled relative to their own over exuberant marketing fiasco. If they hadn't mentioned 8K then I don't see that there would be any doubts to these cameras viability as fully up to date technology in almost every way.

Sep 09, 2020 at 06:21 AM

vdo1
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p.75 #18 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

Sep 09, 2020 at 02:41 PM

Sanlameer
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p.75 #19 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

Some members of the Canon camera club are still waiting for Canon to match the Nikon D850:

https://i.redd.it/y7gtc1hz0f331.jpg

The top five camera companies make up 93.7% of global market share, although camera unit sales dropped by 22.4%, in keeping with a similar number in 2018. You can see the individual market share numbers for yourself below in 2019:

Canon 45.4% (+ 2.4)
Sony 20.2% (+ 0.9)
Nikon 18.6% (- 1.6)
Fujifilm Holdings 4.7% (- 0.4)
Panasonic 4.7% (0.0 )

Sep 09, 2020 at 03:29 PM

Gunzorro
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p.75 #20 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6

Charlie N wrote:
I dont understand the counter argument? These imaginary RF lenses do not exist. Adapting is a pain in the butt and takes away the size advantage of mirrorless systems. Open E-mount incentivized third party to adapt quicker than ever. Tamron has 7 full frame (soon 8) lenses, Sigma has 5?, not including APS-C variants. These are direct bolt on, no adapter, full native lenses. That's a lot of selection that is not only priced attractively, but many offerings in small size.

Sony users could adapt Canon EF ages ago, and many did because they had not choice. Take a...Show more →

I have to disagree with your final paragraph, particularly "hardly any still adapt . . . because it's a terrible experience."

My experience is very pleasant adapting Canon EF lenses to Sony, Nikon G to Sony, and all sorts of manual lenses to various brands. I admit I'm in the minority, being someone owning three camera brands (Sony, Canon, and Nikon) and many more brands of lenses. I love adapting Canon L lenses to Sony, as well as Zeiss ZE lenses. It saves me a lot of money compared to having three or four lens systems. I certainly can't use my Zeiss Loxia lenses on anything but Sony, so the arguments I'm seeing about Canon EF being limited on mirrorless pale in comparison to not being able to use Sony on anything but Sony, making it a pretty closed system.

I don't have the R5 yet, but I adapt EF and Nikon AIS to both Sony mirrorless and Canon R. Great imaging. I'm not using for any specialized genre, like sports or weddings, so the slight delay in function is not a big deal. I often use manual focus lenses anyway, so AF speed is not as critical for me, although AF and MF accuracy are paramount. This is a big reason I prefer mirrorless over DSLR -- off the sensor focus accuracy, not pentaprism viewfinder errors.

I am not particularly drawn to small camera bodies, and my two Sony a7R2's have optional battery grips attached. My a7R4 does not, partly due to better battery than the r2, I put up with it tiny buttons and controls because its output is so good. The Canon R has a much better grip and I seldom attach the extra battery grip. The point being, gripped or not, I prefer a larger camera, so using an adapter is no big deal for a little extra size and weight.

The ability to shoot the same lenses on multiple platforms is a big asset to me, and a huge cost savings. I rather prefer not having specific brand loyalty (brand-agnostic), only concerned with using equipment that provided the results I desire.

BTW -- I only have one plain Canon EF-RF adapter, but probably will get another with the control ring. I have two Sigma MC-11 for Sony, and it works terrific with all modern EF lenses (and some from the intro period of the EOS debut). I don't see the problem of multiple electronic adapters, performance is great.

Sep 09, 2020 at 03:59 PM

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