Archive 2020 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.37 #1 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
arbitrage wrote:
I do understand that there is going to be a certain amount of EVF lag as even the A9 has it. However at less than 12FPS which is what Tony got with the old 500/4 lens you aren’t getting frame insertion and are therefore subject to both the MS blackout (absent in 12FPS and of course ES) and the lag ( which doesn’t look good at all). However what I was trying to get at is that in 12FPS and in ES the camera does fast enough frame insertion that at least in ES and to a lesser extent in H+ you get a fairly fluid and less laggy view than in the slower MS frame rates that Tony showed. I’ve used the 1DXIII in LV via the Hoodman and shot a ~130 shot panning burst of a Northern Harriet IF and didn’t have issue following it while bursting. The R5 seems to look the same from the Atmos recordings I’ve seen so far.
There is no doubt the A9 will still be easier to pan and fire especially as you get faster birds. But I still feel the R5 in ES and probably in MS H+ will be doable. I shoot my A7RIV for swallows IF in H+ which is not a LV but still shows blackout. If I can manage that, I’m sure the R5 is even easier from what I’ve seen so far. But until I get one in hand I won’t know for sure.
The only RF lens they could have tried would have been 70-200 and for sure it wouldn’t have been enough focal length but it still could have shown us the viewer via the Atmos that 12FPS H+ isn’t anything like H or slower.
In regards to the Osprey shots, which shots are you seeing rolling shutter in? I see it maybe in the far wing of the last Whistling Duck shot. Otherwise I see leaning trees but I’d just blur those out and I generally try to not to shoot when backgrounds are that close. ...Show more →
there are multiple comments in that thread about r5 rolling shutter, it started with the pic of the vertical pipes in background, that lean way over... i do agree that what you see in the evf with the a7riv will be similar to the r5 evf.
the problem is that you are conflating several concepts, the main one being that you think that frame duplication will somehow improve evf lag... it won't, because all frame duplication does is cover up blackout, it doesn't improve sensor readout speed, see how the subject being shot isn't moving, frame duplication can't help you see where the subject is actually going:
p.37 #2 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
arbitrage wrote:
The Canon doesn't do 4K240 either though and it doesn't do 1080/240 either. The A7SIII has 1080/240 if you are looking for 240.
Every review I've watched so far testing recovery times is saying at most you can shoot another 5mins after a full 30mins of waiting and the camera must be fully turned off to even get that recovery. I'm not sure how someone was able to pull of 20min segments at 8K unless they were waiting a long time (like an hour or more) between each segment. I've watched around 6 reviews with heat limit testing and no one was able to do that.
If one is doing more video A7SIII seems a lot better. But yeah, it really can't act as a still camera with 12MPs at least for 2020 standards. The R5 on the other hand is a stills monster but as Gerald says is not an 8K camera and should never have been marketed as one as actual workflow is unusable....Show more →
p.37 #3 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Bob_S wrote:
Perhaps the 8K was captured by external recorder?
I don’t believe the HDMI port even supports that high of bitrate and so far even if it did no external recorders support it yet according to the video guys on YT.
p.37 #4 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
osv2 wrote:
there are multiple comments in that thread about r5 rolling shutter, it started with the pic of the vertical pipes in background, that lean way over... i do agree that what you see in the evf with the a7riv will be similar to the r5 evf.
the problem is that you are conflating several concepts, the main one being that you think that frame duplication will somehow improve evf lag... it won't, because all frame duplication does is cover up blackout, it doesn't improve sensor readout speed, see how the subject being shot isn't moving, frame duplication can't help you see where the subject is actually going:
...Show more →
First off to set the record straight as you continue to bring it up, I do not believe nor intended to imply that frame insertion, lens selection nor lag has any affect on sensor scan speeds.
Frame insertion can help with panning even though it doesn’t change EVF lag. It is pretty obvious once you shoot the 1DXIII in LV ES that the fast frame insertion is easier to shoot than a slower FPS in LV MS. Same goes for the R5. I’ve shot all but the R5 first hand and have a pretty good grasp on how it all pans out (pun intended). Good panning even on an EVF as good as the A9 and even on a lag free OVF with blackout is more of a skill to pan at the right speed and basically ignore what is going on in the VF. Some people have better skill at doing this. Others need all the help they can get from lag free and blackout free options...unfortunately there is no lag free and blackout free option available on the market to date.
Subject distortion and leaning vertical lines will solely depend on the sensor scan speed. All I’m trying to get across is that it isn’t as detrimental in as many situations as some seem to think it is. I’ve proven that to myself with an even slower scanning A7RIV and Z7/Z50.
p.37 #6 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Makes complete sense to me. That said would you give up your A9ii for it?
arbitrage wrote:
Yes, the manual states that 60% or higher is needed to guarantee 12FPS...but all camera manuals state stuff like this although never before have I seen an actual percentage given. Some users report they didn't notice the FPS slowing as they depleted their battery all the way to 0% while in MS at 12FPS but it may not be totally obvious if it only drops a few frames. You also need two batteries in the grip with both at 60%+ to guarantee 12FPS...again, not sure if this will really show in actual use as bad as it sound in writing.
As to ES shutter distortion, I did an experiment yesterday shooting the really slow scanning A7RIV for BIF. No obvious distortion in the wings for herons and gulls. Distortion with Kingfishers in some wing positions. Distortion for hummers in some wing positions but in my favourite hummer wing positions (fully back or fully forward there wasn't obvious distortion). So for sure ES has to be managed but you can actually shoot a lot of BIF with it. The R5 is most likely faster scanning than the A7RIV but that is TBD. If the R5 is 1/60s then I think it will be useable for most BIF (like ducks)....Show more →
p.37 #7 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Maxxus46 wrote:
Makes complete sense to me. That said would you give up your A9ii for it?
No, I won't give up my A9 for it but I may well give up my A7RIV for it. I sold my D850 a few weeks ago to free up some cash and the A7RIV would free up some more.
p.37 #8 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Thats what I thought you would say. I too do not feel the A7RIV lived up to its hype. A9ii is a keeper.
Don't you own the 600GM? Isn't that lense stellar with the A7RIV? I'm curious as to why you would sell it if you already own the 600GM which appears stellar on the R4. Thanks
arbitrage wrote:
No, I won't give up my A9 for it but I may well give up my A7RIV for it. I sold my D850 a few weeks ago to free up some cash and the A7RIV would free up some more.
p.37 #9 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
arbitrage wrote:
No, I won't give up my A9 for it but I may well give up my A7RIV for it. I sold my D850 a few weeks ago to free up some cash and the A7RIV would free up some more.
Geoff or others, does the A9 shoot both in Crop and FF, is so, what's the MP count for each. The R5 in crop mode is only 17 PM and 45 MP FF.
p.37 #10 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
IndyFab wrote:
Geoff or others, does the A9 shoot both in Crop and FF, is so, what's the MP count for each. The R5 in crop mode is only 17 PM and 45 MP FF.
Yes the A9 does have a crop mode. It is only 10.7MPs. I sometimes use it when I'm too far away just to magnify the bird in the EVF to place my AF point more precisely.
The A7RIV's crop mode is 26.7MP so I use that mode a lot as it saves me a lot of storage space and makes LR cull faster.
It should be noted that Canon uses a 1.6x crop mode compared to most other brands that use 1.5x. So the R5 is a 20MP crop if you did the 1.5 crop like Sony does.
p.37 #11 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Maxxus46 wrote:
Thats what I thought you would say. I too do not feel the A7RIV lived up to its hype. A9ii is a keeper.
Don't you own the 600GM? Isn't that lense stellar with the A7RIV? I'm curious as to why you would sell it if you already own the 600GM which appears stellar on the R4. Thanks
"I too do not feel the A7RIV lived up to its hype."
That depends on what you use it for. I find it does exactly what I want at events.
The majority of people aren't like some enthusiasts, eps. BIF-shooters, here, who loose money big time buying and selling gear to get an additional 1fps in focus whenever a new promising camera enters the market. They are free to do so of course, but that is not what the majority does. They can do whatever makes them happy, but I still don't agree to your assertion of not living up to the hype. I think that is strongly subjective.
p.37 #12 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
vdo1 wrote:
lol
Maxxus46 wrote:
Wow shutdown immediately at internal temperature reaching 49 degrees Celsius, and ambient temp of 34C? This body needed some active cooling. I guess it's ok for very short video clips. Hmnnnn
Not immediately. Video skips some time, see the clock on thermometer or see the minute number in Chinese text. 18 minutes to shutdown.
But even that is quite fast. I think it is so bad that even small cooling redesign will not help much at this ambient temperature. What might actually help for Canon to sell it is to delay shipments enough to the fall and winter to reduce a wave of initial negative reviews from videographers
Even hybrid shooters will found out that camera pre-heats in photo mode enough that high quality 4k will be very time limited in the summer.
For photography only it is a great camera. Quite possibly it is better for universal photography than A7Riv.
p.37 #13 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
arbitrage wrote:
Frame insertion can help with panning even though it doesn’t change EVF lag. It is pretty obvious once you shoot the 1DXIII in LV ES that the fast frame insertion is easier to shoot than a slower FPS in LV MS. Same goes for the R5. I’ve shot all but the R5 first hand and have a pretty good grasp on how it all pans out (pun intended). Good panning even on an EVF as good as the A9 and even on a lag free OVF with blackout is more of a skill to pan at the right speed and basically ignore what is going on in the VF. Some people have better skill at doing this. Others need all the help they can get from lag free and blackout free options...unfortunately there is no lag free and blackout free option available on the market to date. ...Show more →
Frame insertion (alove, see below) will not ease panning vs. blackout, period. You have no new data to help following target. It can feel to you better, but that is just what you are used to. Personally I like blackout better; it does not give false feel that that there is no direction changes in the target
Your 1DXIII example is propably just due to the fact that electronic shutter uses faster readout time (12 bit) so the freezeframe period is shorter than blackout with EFCS as that uses slower ADC mode
Above is true for R5 as there are 3 options
1. electronic shutter is 1/60 secs, ADC is 12 bit. Shortest possible frame freeze with a real cost in DR (m43 level DR in ES in 1DXIII) and risk of rolling shutter
2. Hi+ is 13 bit ADC and that means slower readout ==> blackout longer than freezeframe above, but without rolling shutter risk and with some DR cost
3. Hi and other shooting modes. 14 bit ADC, likely at least twice as long readout time as ES so longest blackout (this is why it looked so bad with Tony/Chelsea video, Hi+ could have shorter blackout), no DR cost.
Obviously processing pipeline delay and implementation details means there is other stuff affecting blackout/freeze length, but it is the readout speeds in different modes that set the minimum
Panning is mostly skill, that I agree. But blackout/freeze is most harmful when shooting stuff that moves fast and makes lot of surprising direction changes as following target means reacting what you see and in that there is zero difference with blackout and frame insertion; what matters is the length you miss the up to date visual input in the VF.
p.37 #14 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
arbitrage wrote:
I don’t believe the HDMI port even supports that high of bitrate and so far even if it did no external recorders support it yet according to the video guys on YT.
Not sure how it was captured, but it could have been in a studio. Not was an interview.
I'll try get the footage or perhaps the final production if I can.
I'm pretty sure Atomos and/or BMD would have an 8K external recorder.
Aug 02, 2020 at 05:15 AM
osv2 Offline • • • • [X]
p.37 #15 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
tn1krr wrote:
Frame insertion (alove, see below) will not ease panning vs. blackout, period. You have no new data to help following target. It can feel to you better, but that is just what you are used to. Personally I like blackout better; it does not give false feel that that there is no direction changes in the target.
exactly.
there is no logical reason to think that frame insertion improves panning capability, one look at the evf vs. ovf video makes that clear.
i suspect that there is a bad case of r5 gas that's derailing things here
p.37 #16 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Haven't read the whole thread, but I'm strongly considering switching back to Canon. I still have my Canon 500mm f/4 IS II, mostly because I couldn't get the price I wanted for it, and that's by far my best birding lens. The Sony 200-600mm zoom is great, but not as good as that Canon. So, I could spend - in theory only - big bucks to get the Sony 600mm f/4 or I can spend much less to use my 500mm with a native camera.
I intend to sell all my Sony gear, but keep some of my Olympus gear for times when I don't want to carry a bulky kit.
Not sure yet, as I want to see the R5 for myself and first rent it to see if it suits my style. I now have the A9, which blows me away, but which has the older body style, and the A7R IV, which sucks with my 200-600mm but has a much nicer body. If I'm disappointed in using the R5, I'll sell the Canon lens and upgrade to the A9 II.
p.37 #18 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
BIF AF is good, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say. I would like to see and judge for myself how many of those images are perfectly focused at 100% crop and compare it to what my Sonys would produce. It is not like it is any harder to shoot BIF with Sony, hit rate is what ultimately matters.
p.37 #19 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
johnvanr wrote:
Haven't read the whole thread, but I'm strongly considering switching back to Canon. I still have my Canon 500mm f/4 IS II, mostly because I couldn't get the price I wanted for it, and that's by far my best birding lens. The Sony 200-600mm zoom is great, but not as good as that Canon. So, I could spend - in theory only - big bucks to get the Sony 600mm f/4 or I can spend much less to use my 500mm with a native camera.
I intend to sell all my Sony gear, but keep some of my Olympus gear for times when I don't want to carry a bulky kit.
Not sure yet, as I want to see the R5 for myself and first rent it to see if it suits my style. I now have the A9, which blows me away, but which has the older body style, and the A7R IV, which sucks with my 200-600mm but has a much nicer body. If I'm disappointed in using the R5, I'll sell the Canon lens and upgrade to the A9 II. ...Show more →
This matches my view as well. Sony doesn't have very many super telephoto lens options in between a slow $2k zoom and a $12k high end lens. I'm starting to get a bit serious (but not $12k serious ) with this hobby and I don't know what lenses I can use come winter. A used 500/F4 or 600/F4 and an R5 is very tempting.
p.37 #20 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Maxxus46 wrote:
Don't you own the 600GM? Isn't that lense stellar with the A7RIV? I'm curious as to why you would sell it if you already own the 600GM which appears stellar on the R4. Thanks
That’s why I wouldn’t give up my A7Riv! And, it does well with the 100-400.
