Arka wrote:
I'm not saying the A7R was unusable, but I would hardly call it a refined piece of kit as compared to its contemporaneous dSLR competitors. I would not have (and did not) consider one in 2014, and I wasn't alone. The A9 and A7RIII were tipping points for the Sony Alpha system in my view - the point at which they achieved parity or better with the finest dSLRs. If you don't care about the latest-and-greatest in camera automation, then that stuff won't matter to you. but I suspect that's a pretty limited group of people - just like pretty much all purchasers for the M camera. And if you haven't felt compelled to upgrade from an A7R, I find it hard to believe the the Leica M rank-and-file will be flocking to M10-R. Some will, but many will be quite content with the M10 they have, or be angling for cheaper M10s. ...Show more →
All depends on your personal preference and style in photography what is considered best. I have said this multiple times in different FM forums since over 10 years now: for me the sensor itself is the most critical in any kind of digital camera. Upgrading from 36 to 42 MP was insignificant, 60 MP now is another nice jump but at this point still not yet worthwhile for me. I just don't want to go back to a 24 MP FF sensor - especially not for still $3-4K to spend for a used M10. My 5D MkII DSLR has the same resolution sensor, and I can tell already on my screen the difference with 36 MP files from my A7R. So that's my problem now - the M10 might hit as you said a price range where I could jump in but the sensor is not what I desire. The M10-R is the camera I really would love to use, but the price is simply out of this world for me.
No way I'd pre-order it unless I was planning to flip an early example to a starved initial market. It's a lot of money for any camera, let alone with Leica's feature set. And I don't really believe in spending that kind of money on new cameras in 2020 and beyond. They're sweet machines, but let's face it, they're also luxury goods. And if I'm buying luxury good, I'd rather buy something whose residuals don't fall like a rock.
I agree. Even new Leica cameras won't be as the latest models in the market for too long and quicker replaced by successor models (M11 etc). So depreciation will be higher with those cameras.
Fair point re: depreciation as a percentage of purchase price, but I'm looking at it from the perspective of actual dollars lost to depreciation. A Leica M10-R will be worth $4000 less than what I bought it for in 2025 if a 50% rate over that period holds. I can't stomach that kind of depreciation for digital cameras anymore - the cost of ownership just runs too high for someone who isn't a photographer for a living. I may still buy a Leica M in the next year or so, but I'm about 85% sure it won't be an M10-R. Probably an M-10 or M-10P discounted or used. ...Show more →
I think many share similar views. The M10 and M10-P will likely be hot items in the used market for a while. Where I really anticipate a severe price drop is for earlier M models like the M240.
Currently shooting a limited "Black Dot" Edition M9-P @ 18mpixels.
Really want to get this new camera into my hands and give it a try out, however, seriously worried that just like a couple of Leica's before it is that this is simply a "stop-gap" camera (trying out a new sensor) before a more serious upgrade in a new M11 or M11-P is announced.
What are your expectations/experiences? Are we going to see a new "M" in 2021 (not going anywhere for the moment so my "street" photography is sort of lacking the need atm)? What features could they add to the M11? (UHS-II support? IBIS? Better resolution LCD? Faster? Bigger battery? more?)
peters wrote:
Currently shooting a limited "Black Dot" Edition M9-P @ 18mpixels.
Really want to get this new camera into my hands and give it a try out, however, seriously worried that just like a couple of Leica's before it is that this is simply a "stop-gap" camera (trying out a new sensor) before a more serious upgrade in a new M11 or M11-P is announced.
What are your expectations/experiences? Are we going to see a new "M" in 2021 (not going anywhere for the moment so my "street" photography is sort of lacking the need atm)? What features could they add to the M11? (UHS-II support? IBIS? Better resolution LCD? Faster? Bigger battery? more?)
You're completely on point here I think. I'd imaging we won't see an M11 though till 2022? Bigger buffer, new meastro process capable of handling a 4gb buffer, UHS-II or better, maybe bluetooth. I'd be surprised on IBIS.
peters wrote:
Currently shooting a limited "Black Dot" Edition M9-P @ 18mpixels.
Really want to get this new camera into my hands and give it a try out, however, seriously worried that just like a couple of Leica's before it is that this is simply a "stop-gap" camera (trying out a new sensor) before a more serious upgrade in a new M11 or M11-P is announced.
What are your expectations/experiences? Are we going to see a new "M" in 2021 (not going anywhere for the moment so my "street" photography is sort of lacking the need atm)? What features could they add to the M11? (UHS-II support? IBIS? Better resolution LCD? Faster? Bigger battery? more?)
It might depend how Leica's SL line is progressing or not. If Leica decides to stop making their own FF MLCs with the SL line and handing it to Panasonic, I think it is likely that the M11 will have IBIS. If on the other hand Leica continues their own separate SL line, I doubt it will be implemented into a M series camera simply to avoid in-house competition. Same is true for the other parameters you mentioned - it all depends what will happen with the SL. Or in other words: it might be ironically better for M users to have the SL line die since then more features will likely make their way into future M cameras more quickly.
The SL would only be in trouble if Panasonic backed out of photography, considering the SL2's guts are pretty much the S1R. But Leica could find ways to continue. I.e. they developed the M8 and M9 without Panasonic and they're in a much better position now than they were back then.
I just don't see the SL as being in a precarious position because it is the most 'mainstream' Leica system with potentially the broadest consumer interest. The SL Summicron primes are apparently optically exquisite and those on tighter budgets can use Panasonic or Sigma L mount lenses. If Panasonic would finally admit DFD CDAF defeat and adopt PDAF at a level competitive with all other mirrorless cameras, it would considerably help the system's viability.
If anything, it's the S system that feels more endangered, IMO.
peters wrote:
Currently shooting a limited "Black Dot" Edition M9-P @ 18mpixels.
Really want to get this new camera into my hands and give it a try out, however, seriously worried that just like a couple of Leica's before it is that this is simply a "stop-gap" camera (trying out a new sensor) before a more serious upgrade in a new M11 or M11-P is announced.
What are your expectations/experiences? Are we going to see a new "M" in 2021 (not going anywhere for the moment so my "street" photography is sort of lacking the need atm)? What features could they add to the M11? (UHS-II support? IBIS? Better resolution LCD? Faster? Bigger battery? more?)
I don't expect an M11 for at least a few years, but I do expect a "P" version of the M10-R with a larger buffer (currently 2GB/10-11 frames) and as you touch on, perhaps UHS-II.
I wouldn't expect IBIS soon. My understanding is the SL2's sensor couldn't be used because it was physically too large for the M body. Perhaps in time as the technology improves and sensor resolution increases.
I wonder how long after the initial unit the "P" variant usually follows. I don't know how useful a larger buffer is (I don't shoot an M in a way where it would matter much) but UHS-II may be a big deal with these file sizes.
It probably depends on how well the M10-R sells and Leica's M11 timeline. Factors which we won't know. But you can probably get a feeling by looking at the M9P, M240P and M10P timelines (I don't know off hand).
If you won't push a 10 frame buffer then UHS-II in-camera likely won't make a difference either. Initial feedback about the M10-R is that LCD playback is smooth. I.e. scrolling, zooming.
UHS-II cards will make more of an impact transferring large amounts of images to the computer.
Good point. Seems that the time-frame between a unit and the "P" variant is about 18 months. Given that there is nothing to shoot at the moment and the M9P is doing fine, I think it is wait for more info.
rscheffler wrote:
From what I remember of the 75 Lux, it's pretty sharp stopped down a bit. I'm sure it will do fine. You can also oversample down to 24MP, or whatever lower resolution and it will likely look a touch better than if captured natively at that resolution.
The 75 Lux is super crispy all over once stopped down, even at 42mp FF.
rscheffler wrote:
The SL would only be in trouble if Panasonic backed out of photography, considering the SL2's guts are pretty much the S1R. But Leica could find ways to continue. I.e. they developed the M8 and M9 without Panasonic and they're in a much better position now than they were back then.
I just don't see the SL as being in a precarious position because it is the most 'mainstream' Leica system with potentially the broadest consumer interest. The SL Summicron primes are apparently optically exquisite and those on tighter budgets can use Panasonic or Sigma L mount lenses. If Panasonic would finally admit DFD CDAF defeat and adopt PDAF at a level competitive with all other mirrorless cameras, it would considerably help the system's viability.
If anything, it's the S system that feels more endangered, IMO.
I don't expect an M11 for at least a few years, but I do expect a "P" version of the M10-R with a larger buffer (currently 2GB/10-11 frames) and as you touch on, perhaps UHS-II.
I wouldn't expect IBIS soon. My understanding is the SL2's sensor couldn't be used because it was physically too large for the M body. Perhaps in time as the technology improves and sensor resolution increases....Show more →
The M10-R may just be the last of the M10 series. Both the -M and the -R seem to include all the upgrades from the M10-P and the latest in sensor tech. No personal inside info of course, other than a few hints from some that claim to have access to insiders. We shall see. IMO the current stable of M10 camera models should keep everyone willing to spend happy until the M11. But I think I read somewhere, M10-D to be discontinued due to low sales.
Maybe just me, IBIS seems to have become a marketing cure-all, must have, these days even for still photography. Canon was the last hold-out and R5/R6 seems to come with more stops than any other. I guess nobody wants to use a tripod any more. I‘ve had IBIS and OSS since Sony first introduced and frankly I am not so mesmerized nor do I or did I ever use it much even with high MP sensors. But I do understand the application and where it could be beneficial for specific scenarios.
Really don't think that IBIS is headed towards the "M" line. The entire attraction of the M is that it is a throwback. It forces you to slow down and consider your shots when you are taking them as opposed to a lot of cameras now which are all about speed, auto-focus, low noise, etc. It is more of a cover everything and then sort it out after back at home. This is why I chose a Leica - I want none of this anymore, though I can understand how a professional might feel more secure in this environment.
This is why I think the SL line is simply a "me too" camera in a market where they can not compete. I now shoot with a Leica M9P (Black Dot), and the Fuji GFX 50s, and the Fuji X-T3. None of these are speed demons. I sold (and am still in the process of selling) all my pro Canon gear. I don't have any interest (other than curiosity) in the Canon R5 (though this is obviously the camera of the moment).
My concern is that the M10-R may simply be a stop-gap. I have had my M9 since it came out, and have paid for the sensor fix, as there is simply not another like it, and I plan to never let it go. I would like the next Leica which fills this gap, and can give me more resolution for street and art photography.
No longer having to shoot for others really frees me up quite a bit to focus on what I want out of photography. Never was interested in Sony as though I used one for a bit, it was never a "camera" so much as an overly complicated piece of "consumer electronics" kit. The Leica and Fuji are cameras and feel like it. They make you focus (no pun) on the image and the moment in the way that a lot of other cameras do not.
peters wrote:
Really don't think that IBIS is headed towards the "M" line. The entire attraction of the M is that it is a throwback. It forces you to slow down and consider your shots when you are taking them as opposed to a lot of cameras now which are all about speed, auto-focus, low noise, etc. It is more of a cover everything and then sort it out after back at home. This is why I chose a Leica - I want none of this anymore, though I can understand how a professional might feel more secure in this environment.
This is why I think the SL line is simply a "me too" camera in a market where they can not compete. I now shoot with a Leica M9P (Black Dot), and the Fuji GFX 50s, and the Fuji X-T3. None of these are speed demons. I sold (and am still in the process of selling) all my pro Canon gear. I don't have any interest (other than curiosity) in the Canon R5 (though this is obviously the camera of the moment).
My concern is that the M10-R may simply be a stop-gap. I have had my M9 since it came out, and have paid for the sensor fix, as there is simply not another like it, and I plan to never let it go. I would like the next Leica which fills this gap, and can give me more resolution for street and art photography.
No longer having to shoot for others really frees me up quite a bit to focus on what I want out of photography. Never was interested in Sony as though I used one for a bit, it was never a "camera" so much as an overly complicated piece of "consumer electronics" kit. The Leica and Fuji are cameras and feel like it. They make you focus (no pun) on the image and the moment in the way that a lot of other cameras do not.
I share your enthusiasm for the minimalist Leica rangefinder experience. At the same time I love my supersonic Sony FF mirrorless experience too. The two camera system couldn’t be more different and I like that.
“ This is what I want. Is the M10-R that?” Seems to me your name is on the M10-R
peters wrote:
Really don't think that IBIS is headed towards the "M" line. The entire attraction of the M is that it is a throwback. It forces you to slow down and consider your shots when you are taking them as opposed to a lot of cameras now which are all about speed, auto-focus, low noise, etc. It is more of a cover everything and then sort it out after back at home. This is why I chose a Leica - I want none of this anymore, though I can understand how a professional might feel more secure in this environment.
This is why I think the SL line is simply a "me too" camera in a market where they can not compete. I now shoot with a Leica M9P (Black Dot), and the Fuji GFX 50s, and the Fuji X-T3. None of these are speed demons. I sold (and am still in the process of selling) all my pro Canon gear. I don't have any interest (other than curiosity) in the Canon R5 (though this is obviously the camera of the moment).
My concern is that the M10-R may simply be a stop-gap. I have had my M9 since it came out, and have paid for the sensor fix, as there is simply not another like it, and I plan to never let it go. I would like the next Leica which fills this gap, and can give me more resolution for street and art photography.
No longer having to shoot for others really frees me up quite a bit to focus on what I want out of photography. Never was interested in Sony as though I used one for a bit, it was never a "camera" so much as an overly complicated piece of "consumer electronics" kit. The Leica and Fuji are cameras and feel like it. They make you focus (no pun) on the image and the moment in the way that a lot of other cameras do not.
It is funny that the "Das Wesentliche / The Essential" marketing approach from Leica has manifested so well in the customer base. And I state this as Leica M film camera user myself who shoots film and digital in parallel. There is nothing wrong with a Leica M film camera, I like the size and weight and usability plus the rangefinder focusing system. No doubt about this. But when talking about digital, my approach is different: I prefer a compact digital FF camera which at least provides me with options that I can decide which ones to use or ignore. But I have some trouble buying into the digital "Das Wesentliche" argument for the money I am asked to pay and not getting quite simple and meanwhile standardized options like video and IBIS (admittedly I don't use video often, so not having this wouldn't be a culprit for me personally, but I see it as sort of a freebie with any kind of digital camera at this point). Yes, I would go with a digital Leica M simply to complement my Leica M film cameras with. But not for the price tag and the technology I would have gotten so far for it. The M10-R is fitting at least the bill for me regarding sensor regarding resolution and DR. That's a good thing that Leica finally did this. But the price remains the big stopper here - at least for me. And I also have trouble buying into a used digital Leica M with now outdated tech for >$3K.
LBJ2 wrote:
I share your enthusiasm for the minimalist Leica rangefinder experience. At the same time I love my supersonic Sony FF mirrorless experience too. The two camera system couldn’t be more different and I like that.
Same here. I prefer to have 2 very different systems and use them depending on my mood, the subject...
Other people would rather have a "universal" system: that's fine, plenty of that on the market so everybody can be happy.
But as I said above, they could give us a break and stop writing columns asking for a M that can compete with a Sony A9.
retrofocus wrote:
It is funny that the "Das Wesentliche / The Essential" marketing approach from Leica has manifested so well in the customer base. And I state this as Leica M film camera user myself who shoots film and digital in parallel. There is nothing wrong with a Leica M film camera, I like the size and weight and usability plus the rangefinder focusing system. No doubt about this. But when talking about digital, my approach is different: I prefer a compact digital FF camera which at least provides me with options that I can decide which ones to use or ignore. But I have some trouble buying into the digital "Das Wesentliche" argument for the money I am asked to pay and not getting quite simple and meanwhile standardized options like video and IBIS (admittedly I don't use video often, so not having this wouldn't be a culprit for me personally, but I see it as sort of a freebie with any kind of digital camera at this point). Yes, I would go with a digital Leica M simply to complement my Leica M film cameras with. But not for the price tag and the technology I would have gotten so far for it. The M10-R is fitting at least the bill for me regarding sensor regarding resolution and DR. That's a good thing that Leica finally did this. But the price remains the big stopper here - at least for me. And I also have trouble buying into a used digital Leica M with now outdated tech for >$3K.
The only thing I can say about Leica price premium is “Eyes Wide Open” as universally understood, It is what it is even when buying used. Worse IMO is any third party anything that so much as includes the worlds “for Leica” in their product description will charge a HEFTY premium too. Ironically, so called “affordable” Leica M optics line is being discontinued due to low sales!
How the camera feels is to me, more important than all the tech. I do not care about the tech when shooting, but "feel" really influences my photography.
I started shooting film on a Canon Rangefinder back in the day, a Canon P. ALL of the digital cameras of today produce a far superior image to that of film. No worries there. I don't want to be distracted by the tech. I want to focus on only three things, ISO, Aperture and Shutter Speed. That is all. The rest is distracting.
I love the Leica M9. So far, Leica has not produced a camera to compete with it (IMHO). I think the Monochrom is a gimmick. Sharpness is relative and can only be measured in comparison to other images. Who do you know stands in a gallery and says, "This one is not as sharp as that one!" No one. A color camera of equivalent resolution is FAR better as I can adjust how I want the B&W to be interpreted after I get back (like having either a Red or Orange filter for example).
I love photography. Now I need to find a way to get back out into people and photograph. The only thing holding me back now is opportunity!
pmeheut wrote:
Same here. I prefer to have 2 very different systems and use them depending on my mood, the subject...
Other people would rather have a "universal" system: that's fine, plenty of that on the market so everybody can be happy.
But as I said above, they could give us a break and stop writing columns asking for a M that can compete with a Sony A9.
“ But as I said above, they could give us a break and stop writing columns asking for a M that can compete with a Sony A9.” 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Plenty of options that include all the latest camera kryptonite from all camera brands to include Leica. The Leica M is currently the last remaining Rangefinder and I think Leica has done a superior job merging low tech RF with high tech modern digital technology into very high Level design that is the M10. I can’t believe we are now talking about a 40 MP M10-R and M10-M. IMO Leica continues to show just the right amount of fínese to include adding the latest sensor tech to the M10 design.
Don’t get me started on the real Leica jewelry, aka Leica M glass. Another level of stunning Leica design prowess.
How the camera feels is to me, more important than all the tech. I do not care about the tech when shooting, but "feel" really influences my photography.
I started shooting film on a Canon Rangefinder back in the day, a Canon P. ALL of the digital cameras of today produce a far superior image to that of film. No worries there. I don't want to be distracted by the tech. I want to focus on only three things, ISO, Aperture and Shutter Speed. That is all. The rest is distracting.
I love the Leica M9. So far, Leica has not produced a camera to compete with it (IMHO). I think the Monochrom is a gimmick. Sharpness is relative and can only be measured in comparison to other images. Who do you know stands in a gallery and says, "This one is not as sharp as that one!" No one. A color camera of equivalent resolution is FAR better as I can adjust how I want the B&W to be interpreted after I get back (like having either a Red or Orange filter for example).
I love photography. Now I need to find a way to get back out into people and photograph. The only thing holding me back now is opportunity! ...Show more →
Can you or anyone else recommend any url that compares M9 and M10 images directly? I am only on my second year with Leica and am not familiar with M9 images. But I would like to see the differences I read so much about.
You can make M10 shots look pretty close to the M9 with some work. The issue was that the M9 was a bit "magical" in its image quality right out of the camera.
