LBJ2 wrote:
Can you or anyone else recommend any url that compares M9 and M10 images directly? I am only on my second year with Leica and am not familiar with M9 images. But I would like to see the differences I read so much about.
There are differences. IMO primarily due to the narrower dynamic range and thus higher contrast tonality of the CCD and its corresponding CFA. I saw this too with the Canon 1D (CCD) from 2001 vs. the Canon 1DII (CMOS) of 2004...
rscheffler wrote:
Oh no, the CCD vs. CMOS 'debate' surfaces again!
There are differences. IMO primarily due to the narrower dynamic range and thus higher contrast tonality of the CCD and its corresponding CFA. I saw this too with the Canon 1D (CCD) from 2001 vs. the Canon 1DII (CMOS) of 2004...
All these great transitions/debates from analog to film and CCD to CMOS took place before my photography time. Interesting for me to go back now and see the differences as I only really know CMOS. Also, makes me wonder what might come after CMOS. CMOS Organic ?
Leica History all the way up to about 13:30 when Mr M begins to speak about the M10-R details through about 28:00. M10-R User experience afterwards. Mathias Heng: "Huge difference in dynamic range"
*Dual Gain technology applied starting from ISO 125 to help reduce noise.
*New one layer cover glass with UV cut filter and one IR cut filter cemented together. 0,9mm filter thickness vs M10 0,8mm.
*-R shares same base sensor/pixel design as M10-M, S3; Micro-lenses are a bit different.
*Compared to Q2: Bit better DR and approximately 1/2 stop better low light performance.
*Will we ever see Leica M AF in camera or via adapter ? "Looking into that... far too early to say yes or no--but is an option for the future."
*Many M lenses can be used with even higher resolution sensors.
*Expect M11 some time in the future ;-)
*Secret new Italian made camera holster on the way.
*Last Leica fiscal year April to March - second best year in Leica's history. Like many companies, tough April/May/June 2020 due to pandemic.
If this is such an improvement, why wasn’t it the M 11 then? What does this mean the M 11 is going to be? Now, more megapixels isn’t everything, especially nowadays, but it has been enough in the past to launch a new model. Is it that it’s just so related to the most recent monochrome that they didn’t think they could give it a new number? Leica has been all over the map with their number Scheme and rationale for it.
Well, there could be a Model 356 prior to an M11, or a model 412, who knows?
My guess is that the M11 will be the 26 mpixel sensor everyone loves (initially) along with larger buffer, UHS-II, increased Dynamic Range, some feature we do not need or another and a new body-style. It will also finally come with the new Visoflex as an option. The touchscreen will allow you to interact with the new menu system, etc. Hell, there might even be a door for the battery and SD card - who knows.
anselwannab wrote:
If this is such an improvement, why wasn’t it the M 11 then? What does this mean the M 11 is going to be? Now, more megapixels isn’t everything, especially nowadays, but it has been enough in the past to launch a new model. Is it that it’s just so related to the most recent monochrome that they didn’t think they could give it a new number? Leica has been all over the map with their number Scheme and rationale for it.
"Expect M11 some time in the future." I think this comment is a good indication that Leica is still trying to figure out what the M-11 might be, particularly since the svelte M10 form-factor has been such a success. I like the form factor so much that I am tickled to see Leica extending the life of the M10 design through the D/P/M/R.
IMO the M11 will come when Leica decides to change the M form-factor. E.g., current IBIS technology will require a bigger heavier M body. Likewise adding some kind of hybrid RF/AF in-body, will also require a design change from the much loved M10 body. After the 40.89MP sensor, seems some on the forums are still pining for IBIS and some wish for AF. FWIW, Peter Karbe said something along the lines when the M camera includes AF, it stops being a Rangefinder camera. So maybe bets are the M11 will remain a Rangfinder with IBIS and a higher resolution Visoflex 020 will continue to offered as an accessory ( my personal preference since I don't want the worlds last remaining Rangefinder to disappear). From what I can tell, the not really much larger than the M, the SL(2) has it all and is reported to be the second best camera on the planet for M glass. So what exactly is the M11 going to be? "peters" above has some good ideas to include a battery door !
As far as M model number schemes go, for some reason, Leica took a left turn for four/five years and someone at Leica saw the error of their ways, and now back to the traditional "M" scheme. I am not long with Leica, but the M ( Rangefinder) scheme means a lot more to me given the tradition and definition of "M".
Needs to remain a Lieca M or I'm gone. Why would I buy a Leica M if it were trying to be like all the rest. I would buy the less expensive one that has been doing that well for a long time. I use Leica M for what it doesn't have just as much as for what it has. I buy first ond foremost because it fits the way I see and work. Because it is a real rangefinder. Because (M 10) the ISO dial is on the upper left and the shutter dial is on the upper right. And those dials actually control those functions. The aperture control is on the lens as well as real and functioning DoF scales. I do shoot and have been shooting all manual for over 4 decades. It is natural for me to work that way and the Leica M is a tool that just gets out of my way and helps me to create.
A lot of the comments I read are people suggesting that Leica M be more like everyhting else out there. Things like auto focus, more bells and whistles, all the stuff everything else is. In my opinion Leica M is a true alternative to all of that and if Leica M goes to much in that direction then they will no longer be the alternative to that and thus probably no longer be. Lotsa room to move around in the auto everything lotsa features world that is out there. There is only one Leica M.
LBJ2 wrote:
"Expect M11 some time in the future." I think this comment is a good indication that Leica is still trying to figure out what the M-11 might be, particularly since the svelte M10 form-factor has been such a success. I like the form factor so much that I am tickled to see Leica extending the life of the M10 design through the D/P/M/R.
IMO the M11 will come when Leica decides to change the M form-factor. E.g., current IBIS technology will require a bigger heavier M body. Likewise adding some kind of hybrid RF/AF in-body, will also require a design change from the much loved M10 body. After the 40.89MP sensor, seems some on the forums are still pinning for IBIS and some wish for AF. FWIW, Peter Karbe said something along the lines when the M camera includes AF, it stops being a Rangefinder camera. So maybe bets are the M11 will remain a Rangfinder with IBIS and a higher resolution Visoflex 020 will continue to offered as an accessory ( my personal preference since I don't want the worlds last remaining Rangefinder to disappear). From what I can tell, the not really much larger than the M, the SL(2) has it all and is reported to be the second best camera on the planet for M glass. So what exactly is the M11 going to be? "peters" above has some good ideas to include a battery door !
As far as M model number schemes go, for some reason, Leica took a left turn for four/five years and someone at Leica saw the error of their ways, and now back to the traditional "M" scheme. I am not long with Leica, but the M ( Rangefinder) scheme means a lot more to me given the tradition and definition of "M"....Show more →
I sincerely doubt whether Leica would be able to pull off an M11 with IBIS and/or hybrid viewfinder in a way that does not upset too many more purist M users.
About the higher MP, as both Hasselblad and Fuji now offer medium format cameras with higher MP and probably better image quality at a lower cost I believe it might have been a commercial necessity for both SL2 and M, not necessarily something Leica wanted to do.
airfrogusmc wrote:
Needs to remain a Lieca M or I'm gone. Why would I buy a Leica M if it were trying to be like all the rest. I would buy the less expensive one that has been doing that well for a long time. I use Leica M for what it doesn't have just as much as for what it has. I buy first ond foremost because it fits the way I see and work. Because it is a real rangefinder. Because (M 10) the ISO dial is on the upper left and the shutter dial is on the upper right. And those dials actually control those functions. The aperture control is on the lens as well as real and functioning DoF scales. I do shoot and have been shooting all manual for over 4 decades. It is natural for me to work that way and the Leica M is a tool that just gets out of my way and helps me to create.
A lot of the comments I read are people suggesting that Leica M be more like everyhting else out there. Things like auto focus, more bells and whistles, all the stuff everything else is. In my opinion Leica M is a true alternative to all of that and if Leica M goes to much in that direction then they will no longer be the alternative to that and thus probably no longer be. Lotsa room to move around in the auto everything lotsa features world that is out there. There is only one Leica M....Show more →
"Needs to remain a Lieca M or I'm gone. Why would I buy a Leica M if it were trying to be like all the rest." 100% agree.
SlowDriver wrote:
I sincerely doubt whether Leica would be able to pull off an M11 with IBIS and/or hybrid viewfinder in a way that does not upset too many more purist M users.
About the higher MP, as both Hasselblad and Fuji now offer medium format cameras with higher MP and probably better image quality at a lower cost I believe it might have been a commercial necessity for both SL2 and M, not necessarily something Leica wanted to do.
"I sincerely doubt whether Leica would be able to pull off an M11 with IBIS and/or hybrid viewfinder in a way that does not upset too many more purist M users. "
I hope not. Almost every other camera in Leica's line up and across all other manufacturers include those features. Plenty of other products that cater to those that want/need IBIS/EVF for still photography. But market demands and business is business. So we shall see. Leica must sell products that people are willing to buy and buy at a premium price. To me Leica is trying to do everything it can to satisfy the various market desires but keep true to the unique Rangefinder experience in the M10/D/P/M/R series. I think the 40.89 sensors are brilliantly keeping with the RF design language but at the same time keeping up with the "Joneses"
Let me put this simply, I have no need of IBIS or "Hybrid viewfinder" in my Leica M. There are a variety of cameras which already do these things well, such as Leica's own SL line.
Should they go there, I am done buying M cameras - that simple.
LBJ2 wrote:
"I sincerely doubt whether Leica would be able to pull off an M11 with IBIS and/or hybrid viewfinder in a way that does not upset too many more purist M users. "
I hope not. Almost every other camera in Leica's line up and across all other manufacturers include those features. Plenty of other products that cater to those that want/need IBIS/EVF for still photography. But market demands and business is business. So we shall see. Leica must sell products that people are willing to buy and buy at a premium price. To me Leica is trying to do everything it can to satisfy the various market desires but keep true to the unique Rangefinder experience in the M10/D/P/M/R series. I think the 40.89 sensors are brilliantly keeping with the RF design language but at the same time keeping up with the "Joneses" ...Show more →
IBIS would inevitably add weight and increase the size, both of which are a no-go for a lot of M shooters.
I would assume the same for the hybrid viewfinder. FWIW, I very like what Canon did with their focus guide, for me it is very rangefinder-like and a more agreeable solution than focus peaking or magnification:
Only for electronically coupled lenses though, ie. RF and EF.
peters wrote:
Let me put this simply, I have no need of IBIS or "Hybrid viewfinder" in my Leica M. There are a variety of cameras which already do these things well, such as Leica's own SL line.
Should they go there, I am done buying M cameras - that simple.
Strange. If they managed to add it and keep the current size and weight, this would be 2 things you can use or not and if not, it would not change the experience at all.
In fact, IBIS could probably stay "on" all the time and we would get back to film-area shutter speed and nobody complained at the time because we were using slower speed and getting sharp images.
And the hybrid viewfinder is already here: it is called the EVF except we have to insertit if we want to use it. An extra position in the frame selector instead to switch to EVF would not change a lot of things, except more convenience.
SlowDriver wrote:
IBIS would inevitably add weight and increase the size, both of which are a no-go for a lot of M shooters.
I would assume the same for the hybrid viewfinder. FWIW, I very like what Canon did with their focus guide, for me it is very rangefinder-like and a more agreeable solution than focus peaking or magnification:
Only for electronically coupled lenses though, ie. RF and EF.
First time I've seen this Focus Guide technology. Thanks for posting. Reminds me of the Rangefinder focusing patch. A digital Rangefinder patch! Very cool.
