I could be wrong about this, Tony, but my understanding is that insurance covers the seller (shipper), not the buyer. I would always insure what I ship to protect myself.
Hi Fred, yes, that was my thought as well, but apparently not by others on the B&S board who add a line to their listing that goes something like: "If you want insurance, please add the cost to shipping." Always struck me as strange to read that. If I own something and sell it, at least in PA, that item is mine until it is signed off on with a delivery confirmation signature. It gets lost, I've always thought it was on me, so the shipping insurance was to protect me from that kind of outcome. PayPal protects the Buyer from such an outcome.
The seller should pay for insurance. It covers the seller’s money, not the buyer’s money. I would never pay for someone else’s insurance.
Edit: If you want the buyer to pay for the insurance, you should factor insurance costs into your initial sell price. You should never ask “Do you want this package insured?” That’s not on the buyer and no buyer is going to say yes. So, as a seller you should include insurance in your initial pricing if you want your buyer to pick up the cost of insurance.
anthonysemone wrote:
Hi Fred, yes, that was my thought as well, but apparently not by others on the B&S board who add a line to their listing that goes something like: "If you want insurance, please add the cost to shipping." Always struck me as strange to read that. If I own something and sell it, at least in PA, that item is mine until it is signed off on with a delivery confirmation signature. It gets lost, I've always thought it was on me, so the shipping insurance was to protect me from that kind of outcome. PayPal protects the Buyer from such an outcome.
I've seen that as well, and it also puzzles me why a buyer is asked to provide"optional" insurance. My guess is that the seller that asks that isn't fully aware the item belongs to him/her until receipt.
The person who buys the insurance*, is covered by it, and this is the only party that can file a claim for loss or damage. In most cases, it's the seller who pays for insurance, which makes sense, as most transactions using PayPal 'for an item' or a credit card with fraud protection, will compensate the buyer (only). IMO, a casual seller who ships expensive equipment without adequate insurance is either; (i) ill-informed, or (ii) stupid.
Also, if a claim is filed for an item that wasn't fully covered by the original insurance, then the claim is denied. For example, if you sell a 300/2.8 lens for $2400, and send it from Canada to the US with insurance for $1000 (max. for Canada Post), and it gets lost, you will get nada (if they clue in that the lens was actually worth more than the $1000 coverage, and they will clue-in, as they will require proof of sale).
* Actually, it's the person/party named on the insurance form that has coverage; this is usually the person who bought it.
I agree - the person contracting the shipping (the seller) is the one who can purchase insurance. I find it fairly annoying when a seller lists a price then adds in later that buyer pays for shipping or insurance or PayPal fees. It's kind of ridiculous. Charge a price that covers everything. Make it easy and clear for buyers.
It may ultimately be just a semantic difference, but I want to buy from folks who understand and accept that they own getting the item to me as-described.
VictorJB wrote:
The seller should pay for insurance. It covers the seller’s money, not the buyer’s money. I would never pay for someone else’s insurance.
The seller takes out the insurance with the shipper and pays the fee to the shipper. As for who pays for it in the end is up to the seller and buyer. As a seller, I pay for the insurance, but that is factored into the selling price, so in the end the buyer is paying for it.
Of course you have paid for somone else's insurance. It was included in the price most likely. Just like taxes, shipping cost, brokerage fees, duties, etc. Whatever was agreed upon by both parties.
I should have clarified, if the seller asks me “Do you want to pay for insurance?” The answer will always be no. If you want insurance to be paid by the buyer, you should factor it in the initial price.
-Victor
Imagemaster wrote:
The seller takes out the insurance with the shipper and pays the fee to the shipper. As for who pays for it in the end is up to the seller and buyer. As a seller, I pay for the insurance, but that is factored into the selling price, so in the end the buyer is paying for it.
Of course you have paid for somone else's insurance. It was included in the price most likely. Just like taxes, shipping cost, brokerage fees, duties, etc. Whatever was agreed upon by both parties.
And I would add only that the Seller must be advised that the shipping insurance covers SELLER, and if the SHTF with respect to the item following its shipping, the onus is on the SELLER, not the buyer, for it is SELLER who must make the claim.
An interesting side-note on FedEx shipping is this piece of anecdotal info: for the declared value of the shipped item to be honored by FedEx in response to seller's claim of loss, damage, etc., the item MUST be packed by FedEx. HAH, just what I'd want to do is to leave $$$$ piece(s) of gear w/ a FedEx employee to pack.
I don't know if that's true or not, nor do I know if that also applies to UPS or USPS.
I agree with all. I include insurance in my price as well as any PP fees. This "nickle and dime" crap" about if you want insurance you add to price is a lazy person's ad. I would PM and ask if he will include insurance in his price. Most say fine! If not adios MF'r!!!
My Brother Tony I must tell you that I did have FedUp require me to allow them to inspect(an already packaged camera) and re-pack before shipping. I could be present when this took place BUT I must wait! I said "Adios MF'r".
NEVER had UPS or the UPS Store do this. All shippers have there "deltas"(negatives) but this is one I would not buy!!
Dan
Fred Amico wrote:
I could be wrong about this, Tony, but my understanding is that insurance covers the seller (shipper), not the buyer. I would always insure what I ship to protect myself.
Exactly. The seller should include that in the cost of doing business.
jcolwell wrote:
Also, if a claim is filed for an item that wasn't fully covered by the original insurance, then the claim is denied. For example, if you sell a 300/2.8 lens for $2400, and send it from Canada to the US with insurance for $1000 (max. for Canada Post), and it gets lost, you will get nada (if they clue in that the lens was actually worth more than the $1000 coverage, and they will clue-in, as they will require proof of sale).
Actually, you will get the amount of coverage you purchased, $1000 in your example, but you may have to hound Canada Post relentlessly for a few months before you get it.
IMO it's the seller's responsibility to get the gear to the buyer safely. With that understood the seller would be wise to insure the shipment, otherwise he stands to eat the loss if the gear is lost or damaged in transit. Since insurance is protecting the seller's role in delivering the gear safely he's the one who should be paying for it.
Give a more detailed example. In any case, it will be an insurance company, shops and other organizations acting as intermediaries. Other organizations do not have the authority to do so to the best of my knowledge.
mpix345 wrote:
I find it fairly annoying when a seller lists a price then adds in later that buyer pays for shipping or insurance or PayPal fees. It's kind of ridiculous. Charge a price that covers everything. Make it easy and clear for buyers.
I agree with you and everyone else who responded in this thread. Funny that nobody with the opposite opinion responded, eh? I guess they think their own position is indefensible!
But I do have one difference to what you said. I generally do not include shipping in my asking price, for the simple reason that shipping doesn't cost the same to every destination. All of the items I sell are low-value ones (I think the most expensive was $300, but most are less than $150), so shipping is a significant percentage of the price. Sometimes I'll say up to $10 of shipping is included, the rest to be covered by the buyer. Sometimes I just say shipping is extra and tell the buyer how much it is once they tell me their zip code. But I never charge for insurance; I'll either take the risk of a loss (since the value is usually low enough to take that risk) or just absorb the cost of insurance. I might add that not once has USPS ever lost or damaged an item I sold (and I've sold many more on eBay than here).
You have a valid point! I do state "CONUS Only" and I will adjust S&H if required. But I always vet my buyers so not to cause problems "down the road". I have had only 1 issue with a delivery service as to damage from an item I BOUGHT BUT have had no issues with Sells.
Dan
As others have noted, it's incumbent upon the seller to get their item in good working order to the buyer.
If the buyer never receives what they paid for, it's the seller's responsibility.
If a seller doesn't insure their shipment, the costs of damage or loss is on them unless, perhaps, another agreement has been explicitly made beforehand.
Asking the buyer if they want to "pay for it" isn't relevant to that responsibility.
Thankfully, we have a solid community here at FM, in any event!
I am glad the consensus here is that it is incumbent on the seller seller to get the goods safely to the buyer and that therefore the seller should either insure the shipment or be comfortable eating the loss if there is one. I have always operated on this basis and insure everything I sell except for inexpensive items - though those are often covered by the basic $50 coverage that comes with Priority Mail.
Like others here I also much prefer to price things I am selling "all in" and factor fees, shipping and insurance into the price but sometimes make exceptions for bulky or heavy items where the cost of shipping cross country can be dramatically more than to the next state.
On another site I purchased a camera body. I paid for it w/ PP and included the 3%. Seller was/is excellent!! One of the most honorable guys you'd ever want to do business with. Ranks up there amongst the 'Old Guard" here on FM (not those who are the commercial resellers here).
Shipping however was an issue. It was via USPS Priority. He paid for insurance at full value. YES!! Given the Christmas rush it arrived couple days late having gone from MD to Springfield MA where it hung out for a couple days, thence to Philly Sadly, camera body was DOA. I arranged return shipping per his instructions, paid for the insurance at full value. It got from Philly to Hyattsville MD in one day!! And there it sat, and sat, and sat, and sat, and sat, etc. :bang: :bang: :bang:
So I made contact with USPS who said, first thing: "Are you the shipper of record?" I said I was and agent responded with "Well, that's good because you're the one with the standing to find out its status." Ultimately, it got to Seller, and it took about 5 days or so to go from Hyattsville MD to BAL. He and I said we could have personally covered the distance in less time than USPS Priority (sic) Mail took.
The other things I learned in that shipping debacle: the language "In Transit" doesn't mean shit as to "speed of movement, or, indeed, ANY movement at all - it simply means it hasn't moved from the last scan that shows on the summary of tracked positions; and, "Priority" doesn't mean shit either, only that it is scanned before those other packages w/o that designation. Priority Mail gets there when it gets there, unlike Priority Express which is indeed 1-3 days and (mostly) guaranteed.
FWIW, FedEx has also told me that only the one who pays for the insurance attached to the shipment has standing in terms of tracking down where the package is located at any given time.
So, another criteria for my purchases: Seller who specifies that Buyer pays shipping "and insurance if wanted," ... I'll pass on that offer. Insurance protects Seller, not me. Seller wants to quote me a fee for shipping all-in with full value insurance and gives me that amount included in the price quoted, I'll certainly pay it. And, again, I will always pay the PP fee because that protects (sic) me.
! I do state "CONUS Only" and I will adjust S&H if required. But I always vet my buyers so not to cause problems "down the road". I have had only 1 issue with a delivery service as to damage from an item I BOUGHT BUT have had no issues with Sells.