I saw that you can save the profile adjustments to FP, but it is too bad it is not shared btw the manufacturers. Similarly MC 21 is not working with Leica cameras.
So far there are photos of m lenses on the FP, but not many photo samples or reports on m lenses. Jono Slack was reporting that M10>SL~CL>S1 for M lenses in his reviews. I don't know if it is due to profile corrections + sensor adjustments... I am wondering how the S1 vs A7 III/A7R III perform with M lenses if you have any experiences...
adamdewilde wrote:
So I did the test with the 21SEM, 24LUX, 28LUX and to my eyes the M10 performs a lot better than the other two bodies with all the lenses at all the focal lengths (no real surprise).
The Sigma FP seems to me like it's about the same as the S1 but I got some odd results between lenses (21SEM, 24Lux, 28Lux) which makes me wonder if it's the FP E-shutter, the adapter I have is faulty or my technique/location suck.
I might run the tests again on a sunnier day with different wide lenses and see what happens.
Hi, Adam, that is not what I found though I don't know 'a lot better' may means different from one to others. I am especially surprised to read 24lux and 28lux have issues on S1. What I do find is M wide have more vignette on S1 compare to M.
I don't have time to demonstrate all my finding but it seems nobody really pay attention what I said.
Here are an image I did test on S1 with latest 28mm Summicron at f5.6 (75/0.5/75), LR Lens correction will correct distortion but not vignette as I don't see any difference with profile on or off.
I have hard time view internet image on my retina IMC, but I can attest that viewing in my LR, it definitely meet my requirement. at f4, it is already good enough.
Again, I have a feeling this is close to SL performance if what I read from internet about this 28mm cron on SL. BTW, 50Cron APO is sharp as native lens.
All I can say is you might just have to test it yourself and don't trust internet rumors about how thick the sensor are or how poor the lens performed etc...
I haven't upload my M10 results yet, but at this aperture, they are close and that is all I cared for landscape shots which I most used aperture are f8 and f11. Vignette is an issue I just have to deal (but 28cron was notorious for serious vignette even on M) and I don't see obvious color shift that both apply to my 21 SEM as well.
Oct 30, 2019 at 11:10 AM
imagesfromobjects Offline • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
Thanks for checking in!! Especially interested to see how M lenses fare. Mostly interested in the fp as a "digital back" for those, keeping it minimal and compact.
zhangyue wrote:
Hi, Adam, that is not what I found though I don't know 'a lot better' may means different from one to others. I am especially surprised to read 24lux and 28lux have issues on S1. What I do find is M wide have more vignette on S1 compare to M.
I don't have time to demonstrate all my finding but it seems nobody really pay attention what I said.
Here are an image I did test on S1 with latest 28mm Summicron at f5.6 (75/0.5/75), LR Lens correction will correct distortion but not vignette as I don't see any difference with profile on or off.
I have hard time view internet image on my retina IMC, but I can attest that viewing in my LR, it definitely meet my requirement. at f4, it is already good enough.
Again, I have a feeling this is close to SL performance if what I read from internet about this 28mm cron on SL. BTW, 50Cron APO is sharp as native lens.
All I can say is you might just have to test it yourself and don't trust internet rumors about how thick the sensor are or how poor the lens performed etc...
I haven't upload my M10 results yet, but at this aperture, they are close and that is all I cared for landscape shots which I most used aperture are f8 and f11. Vignette is an issue I just have to deal (but 28cron was notorious for serious vignette even on M) and I don't see obvious color shift that both apply to my 21 SEM as well. ...Show more →
I'd love to know your findings if it's not too much work. Thanks for posting crops Michael
Oct 30, 2019 at 08:56 PM
imagesfromobjects Offline • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
Is it possible that the M is "baking in" some vignetting correction to the raw files, while the S1 is not?
zhangyue wrote:
Hi, Adam, that is not what I found though I don't know 'a lot better' may means different from one to others. I am especially surprised to read 24lux and 28lux have issues on S1. What I do find is M wide have more vignette on S1 compare to M.
I don't have time to demonstrate all my finding but it seems nobody really pay attention what I said.
Here are an image I did test on S1 with latest 28mm Summicron at f5.6 (75/0.5/75), LR Lens correction will correct distortion but not vignette as I don't see any difference with profile on or off.
I have hard time view internet image on my retina IMC, but I can attest that viewing in my LR, it definitely meet my requirement. at f4, it is already good enough.
Again, I have a feeling this is close to SL performance if what I read from internet about this 28mm cron on SL. BTW, 50Cron APO is sharp as native lens.
All I can say is you might just have to test it yourself and don't trust internet rumors about how thick the sensor are or how poor the lens performed etc...
I haven't upload my M10 results yet, but at this aperture, they are close and that is all I cared for landscape shots which I most used aperture are f8 and f11. Vignette is an issue I just have to deal (but 28cron was notorious for serious vignette even on M) and I don't see obvious color shift that both apply to my 21 SEM as well. ...Show more →
Oct 31, 2019 at 09:14 AM
imagesfromobjects Offline • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
nehemiahphoto wrote:
I'd love to know your findings if it's not too much work. Thanks for posting crops Michael
This 28cron is noticeably sharper than old version on M10. It is very good to corner at f2 on M10P already. I think I can use it at that aperture on M if DOF allows which is not the case with old cron. On S1, at f2, the corner is mushy, but at f2.8 is clearly improve a lot that I don't see this much of improvement with one stop based on my experience with adapting M glasses, usually the effect is way more gradual on non-Native body and some never be able to catch up. and as mentioned, at f4, it is good enough but after f5.6, I am happy to use it for critical landscape shots.
The lens is very tricky that I found it has quite significant focus shift.(and exhibit more so on S1 than M10P which add more confusion) I don't remember see this documented anywhere and I don't remember old cron has this much focus shift at all. If I didn't find this during testing, my results will be very miserable, and then people will all have different information about this 28cron now.
Given there is so many variables involved, adapter, body, methodology and inspection(be able to analysis results), that is why nowdays, I almost only trust myself on lens testing than any internet experience and good testers are all go to sony and forget about M glasses. Because ultimately, it is the system I assembled for my own use. I consider this is a must step to use any lens or system wisely.
My case might be different than many others as a M system is foundation of my setup. I will have those M glasses no matter how they perform on other platform.
I am very happy with my M lens selection now as they are all decent to great on S1 and Z. (21SEM seems barely make it though, but I need double check my testing results later, who knows, maybe I didn't optimize my focusing)
---------------------------------------------
imagesfromobjects wrote:
Is it possible that the M is "baking in" some vignetting correction to the raw files, while the S1 is not?
That is possible part of the reason and given obvious sharp difference at corner between S1 and M10P at f2 in this case, I would say the sensor stack must be different enough (I consider this is a known fact but unknown part is how it compare to other MILC system such as Z, A and SL and if individual lens has decent performance for suitable applications.) to cause the smear on corner of S1. The stack thickness will certainly affect vignette.
The new 28cron works better on all sensors, most new M lenses are leaning that way.
I can repeat the test when I have time, but I doubt the results will vary that much. To my eyes the FP/S1 are similar and the M10 is better... How much better is subjective. To be fair I don't even really care much about corners as I rarely print large and I rarely stop down so most of my images are soft off the point of focus anyway
I just feel your lux should perform decent good on S1 given their bigger size and design flexibility to put aperture away from sensor. Given you shoot mostly wide open, I am not surprised that you are not happy with S1.
For me, I kind of prefer two body setup anytime travel And one has to be capable to take zoom such as 70-200 or 14-30-70 type. Depend on location and trip, I can simplify to 3 primes with m plus either Z or S1. And I know I need them to be reasonable sharp at small aperture for stuff I shoot. In this case, most likely 28 and 90 cron will on S, 21SEM and 50lux/cron will on M for two body setup.
adamdewilde wrote:
The new 28cron works better on all sensors, most new M lenses are leaning that way.
I can repeat the test when I have time, but I doubt the results will vary that much. To my eyes the FP/S1 are similar and the M10 is better... How much better is subjective. To be fair I don't even really care much about corners as I rarely print large and I rarely stop down so most of my images are soft off the point of focus anyway
zhangyue wrote:
I just feel your lux should perform decent good on S1 given their bigger size and design flexibility to put aperture away from sensor. Given you shoot mostly wide open, I am not surprised that you are not happy with S1.
For me, I kind of prefer two body setup anytime travel And one has to be capable to take zoom such as 70-200 or 14-30-70 type. Depend on location and trip, I can simplify to 3 primes with m plus either Z or S1. And I know I need them to be reasonable sharp at small aperture for stuff I shoot. In this case, most likely 28 and 90 cron will on S, 21SEM and 50lux/cron will on M for two body setup.
One critical thing to note is that I actually don't like focus peaking or magnification of manual focus. I would much rather use OVF or in best case scenario RF focusing. BUT from all the cameras I've used, the Canon EOSR has the best peaking performance IMHO.
Yes to the two cameras, I usually do the same, but for different reasons. I like two body setups as I get bored with just one camera. Sometimes I can get away with say an S-007 and a Q or an M and a Q. But now that I have the FP I haven't used any other camera since (other than doing that M/S1 test out my kitchen window). I've been using it non-stop with the 35cronSL and 50cronSL and I have to say that these two lenses are making me really quite happy. I'm less pleased with the 90cronSL as I am using it for portraits and I prefer the shallow DOF look of the 85RF, but if I were using the 90cronSL for detail shots etc I'd be fine with it. I do still like the 75cronSL for certain things and I just used it today to take some random photos of a mask my wife was working on for me for tonights festivities (going to a Día de los Muertos party and I don't like face paint).
I haven't used any of the SL zooms on the FP. I haven't really used the 16-35SL at all, I bought it for travel only but I doubt I'm going to bring it to Niseko this ski season as I feel like I could probably just stitch with the 35cronSL since I love the way it renders very near and very far (not too happy with its mid distance performance, think half body to full body, but the 50SL makes up for it in that range).
I'll agree that stopped down there is less of a issue with corners. But wide open poor corner performance is more "jarring" for lack of a better word on the S1/FP than it is on the M. Though it's not like the M magically makes a 24Lux wide open shot sharp in the corners. And maybe I'm being overly critical so I'll refrain from saying more until I've tested this all again when I have a bit more time.
SORRY FOR THE COMPRESSION, it's not good, but my site does it automatically.
Here are a few SOOC JPG files (no time today for editing) from the 75cronSL:
And here are some SOOC JPG files from yesterdays walk around with the 35cronSL (note I really like the close up rendering of the 35cronSL, the hazy bokeh seen in the shot of the dragon scales is what I look for in a lens [also seen in the 75cronSL]):
zhangyue wrote:
This 28cron is noticeably sharper than old version on M10. It is very good to corner at f2 on M10P already. I think I can use it at that aperture on M if DOF allows which is not the case with old cron. On S1, at f2, the corner is mushy, but at f2.8 is clearly improve a lot that I don't see this much of improvement with one stop based on my experience with adapting M glasses, usually the effect is way more gradual on non-Native body and some never be able to catch up. and as mentioned, at f4, it is good enough but after f5.6, I am happy to use it for critical landscape shots.
The lens is very tricky that I found it has quite significant focus shift.(and exhibit more so on S1 than M10P which add more confusion) I don't remember see this documented anywhere and I don't remember old cron has this much focus shift at all. If I didn't find this during testing, my results will be very miserable, and then people will all have different information about this 28cron now.
Given there is so many variables involved, adapter, body, methodology and inspection(be able to analysis results), that is why nowdays, I almost only trust myself on lens testing than any internet experience and good testers are all go to sony and forget about M glasses. Because ultimately, it is the system I assembled for my own use. I consider this is a must step to use any lens or system wisely. ...Show more →
Sorry to continue off topic, but that's a very interesting set of observations about the new 28 Cron. Not sure if you recall, but I bought two copies back a few years ago (2016?) and wasn't happy with either (ended up with the Lux instead). The first was a dud with very poor RF calibration that was way off. The second was properly calibrated, but I found that as I stopped it down it developed massive field curvature. I posted about this on LUF and got samples from a couple other photographers... Some stated they had no such field curvature problems, but those didn't provide image samples for comparison. Of the image samples I received, I could see the field curvature in some.
Are you finding that at f/4 and further stopped down that the lens remains as sharp into the edges/corners as it is in the center? This is where my copies disappointed me. In comparison, side by side, the CV35/1.7 whipped the new Cron. The issue of focus shift sounds familiar but I would have to go back to my test images to see if in fact I also noticed any shift.
rscheffler wrote:
Sorry to continue off topic, but that's a very interesting set of observations about the new 28 Cron. Not sure if you recall, but I bought two copies back a few years ago (2016?) and wasn't happy with either (ended up with the Lux instead). The first was a dud with very poor RF calibration that was way off. The second was properly calibrated, but I found that as I stopped it down it developed massive field curvature. I posted about this on LUF and got samples from a couple other photographers... Some stated they had no such field curvature problems, but those didn't provide image samples for comparison. Of the image samples I received, I could see the field curvature in some.
Are you finding that at f/4 and further stopped down that the lens remains as sharp into the edges/corners as it is in the center? This is where my copies disappointed me. In comparison, side by side, the CV35/1.7 whipped the new Cron. The issue of focus shift sounds familiar but I would have to go back to my test images to see if in fact I also noticed any shift....Show more →
Your observation make me delay my acquisition of 28cron for two years As I only trust your test compare to others at that times, either copy variation or the lens problem itself scare me off. Finally, I break down as I need either a 35mm or 28mm to cover between 21 and 50, I am very happy with Nikon 35mmf1.8S performance, I figured it will raise the bar too high that I might disappointed with any 35mm leica lenses, and I sold VC35mm because it is a outlier of my M setup and I hate its focus ring design.
Call me surprised on this cron, it perform superb on M and also on S1 at f5.6. With M, I think I can use it at f2 if I want, this is not a small upgrade compare to my old 28mm test results. But focus shift at infinity is quite strong with this lens. I haven't test its shift at near distance yet. I don;t notice much FC much at all. The MTF seems also gentle without hint of FC, though the new and old have quite similar MTF, somehow, its performance difference is quite big IMHO. (copy?)
I can post a few crop on M later if you are interested.
Adam, Glad you like FP. I already imagine one or two M glasses on it will be a super compact setup. 28/50cron That 35SL is a shocker.
Nov 02, 2019 at 02:51 AM
imagesfromobjects Offline • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
Can you please test the Elmarit-M 28/2.8 Asph if you have it on-hand? I've found it *more* than usable on a7S, but there is definitely FC. Most noticeable at wide apertures and up close (<3m) which is mostly how I shoot with it. The FC is the "outward" variety where center at 2m will be in focus, but then something in the extreme corners at 5m will also be in focus.
Not the case at all on film, where I have yet to detect any FC (I've looked hard) so it leads me to believe that the sensor cover glass is directly responsible. There's also some color shift, but no smearing in the corners, just sometimes that funky bokeh you get when FC is at play.
rscheffler wrote:
Sorry to continue off topic, but that's a very interesting set of observations about the new 28 Cron. Not sure if you recall, but I bought two copies back a few years ago (2016?) and wasn't happy with either (ended up with the Lux instead). The first was a dud with very poor RF calibration that was way off. The second was properly calibrated, but I found that as I stopped it down it developed massive field curvature. I posted about this on LUF and got samples from a couple other photographers... Some stated they had no such field curvature problems, but those didn't provide image samples for comparison. Of the image samples I received, I could see the field curvature in some.
Are you finding that at f/4 and further stopped down that the lens remains as sharp into the edges/corners as it is in the center? This is where my copies disappointed me. In comparison, side by side, the CV35/1.7 whipped the new Cron. The issue of focus shift sounds familiar but I would have to go back to my test images to see if in fact I also noticed any shift....Show more →
This is not the first time I've heard of VERY mixed results with M lenses to the point where it defies what you would think possible for a lens with the same optical design. I've encountered a few oddities myself but it's too OT. Though I don't mind if you guys take this forum off topic I'm not fussed.
EDIT: BTW how do you like the 28Lux? After using the Q for so long I bought the 28Lux and then the Q2 and I've found myself wanting to use the 28Lux over both the Q and Q2 even though it's bigger/heavier and more of a hassle. I just love the way it renders at closer distances (think in your face type portraits). I had one AGES ago and sold it in three days. I bought it on a whim and didn't like the size but since it was "rare" in the market (was one of the first in Singapore) I could sell at not at a loss and didn't think anything of it for a long while then a while back I was stressed and went on a lens shopping spree and picked one up and I'm quite happy with it, though I still prefer the size and the FOV of the 35FLE. TBH I much prefer the rendering of the 28Lux and the 35FLE is one of my favourite lenses so basically I like mine. CA is a big problem, not sure if it's my copy but I won't send it in because I love the close up rendering for portraits and don't want that to change.
zhangyue wrote:
Your observation make me delay my acquisition of 28cron for two years As I only trust your test compare to others at that times, either copy variation or the lens problem itself scare me off. Finally, I break down as I need either a 35mm or 28mm to cover between 21 and 50, I am very happy with Nikon 35mmf1.8S performance, I figured it will raise the bar too high that I might disappointed with any 35mm leica lenses, and I sold VC35mm because it is a outlier of my M setup and I hate its focus ring design.
Call me surprised on this cron, it perform superb on M and also on S1 at f5.6. With M, I think I can use it at f2 if I want, this is not a small upgrade compare to my old 28mm test results. But focus shift at infinity is quite strong with this lens. I haven't test its shift at near distance yet. I don;t notice much FC much at all. The MTF seems also gentle without hint of FC, though the new and old have quite similar MTF, somehow, its performance difference is quite big IMHO. (copy?)
I can post a few crop on M later if you are interested.
Adam, Glad you like FP. I already imagine one or two M glasses on it will be a super compact setup. 28/50cron That 35SL is a shocker. ...Show more →
You saying you like it makes me want to buy one.. But I'm trying to downsize
EDIT:: AAHHHH now you have me thinking of buying one.. I wanna downsize to M10-D + 28 + 50APO because I find myself pretty happy using the f/2 SL primes and the FP (to the point where I doubt my M system will see much use). Was gonna keep the 28Lux but it really is a bit big for the "M vibe".
imagesfromobjects wrote:
Can you please test the Elmarit-M 28/2.8 Asph if you have it on-hand? I've found it *more* than usable on a7S, but there is definitely FC. Most noticeable at wide apertures and up close (<3m) which is mostly how I shoot with it. The FC is the "outward" variety where center at 2m will be in focus, but then something in the extreme corners at 5m will also be in focus.
Not the case at all on film, where I have yet to detect any FC (I've looked hard) so it leads me to believe that the sensor cover glass is directly responsible. There's also some color shift, but no smearing in the corners, just sometimes that funky bokeh you get when FC is at play.
I'd love to hear that it's better on the fp?...Show more →
I have it, I can test tomorrow (maybe or Monday) will try to shoot a wall and see what happens.
EDIT: I will add that I don't think I've noticed field curvature on the lens and I'm pretty sure I tested it several times in the past (I've bought and sold the lens a lot).
No system will replace my M setup. They are all bloated compare to M no to mention the lovely size of 28cron and 50cron that around 300g, but size advantage is even bigger. Then, OVF and rangefinder to control the focus, 90% of time, I don’t enjoy AF at all, photography is a process for me than easy to get final results.
adamdewilde wrote:
You saying you like it makes me want to buy one.. But I'm trying to downsize
EDIT:: AAHHHH now you have me thinking of buying one.. I wanna downsize to M10-D + 28 + 50APO because I find myself pretty happy using the f/2 SL primes and the FP (to the point where I doubt my M system will see much use). Was gonna keep the 28Lux but it really is a bit big for the "M vibe".
It may show FC on nonnative platform. It’s MTF show that it might have a little even on M.
adamdewilde wrote:
I have it, I can test tomorrow (maybe or Monday) will try to shoot a wall and see what happens.
EDIT: I will add that I don't think I've noticed field curvature on the lens and I'm pretty sure I tested it several times in the past (I've bought and sold the lens a lot).
I visited my local camera store today as they have demo day on Few products/brands. I had a chance to get my hands and play little bit with it.
This camera is so small !!! just like my old Canon G5 back in the day.
It will be a nice to pair this camera with M lenses! not with Leica or Panasonic L or even Sigma own lines due to size. I did put on the L lens (store demo SL summilux). AF worked flawlessly, too bad I didn't have enough time to play longer and learn all the layout buttons (some other people were waiting to get their hands on it too).
Basically all screen on the back and few buttons on bottom of screen/side and on top.
Many accessories can be paired with this camera, possibilities is endless for sure as part of L alliance.
Price wise, it's little bit too much, for $1899, and that's just camera if you want to add few more accessories then more $$.
I'll definitely have interest for this camera in the future as a second/third body but not with that price.
and good testers are all go to sony and forget about M glasses. Because ultimately, it is the system I assembled for my own use. I consider this is a must step to use any lens or system wisely. 
