The Nikon D500 is getting really affordable now, at around 1600,- euros. It may be "old" tech, but who cares if it takes fantastic images? Only thing is: you can't mount Canon lenses on it.
Canon is putting out a strange collection of bodies: all have their strengths, but not one is really tempting. So where with Nikon it would be a no brainer D500, with Canon, I find myself going back and forth between keeping the 7DII, getting the D90, getting the M6mkII, getting the EOS-R, getting the 5DIV, and I end up .... keeping the 7DII, despite its aging and limited sensor.
What a mess.... I wish I was shooting Nikon!
technic wrote:
Future compatibility is a worry indeed. I'm not tempted myself by Canon R because the current R bodies and most RF lenses don't suit my subject well, but I'm tempted by the Nikon PF lenses which is a bit similar problem
I probably won't buy a new body until next spring and hopefully there is more clarity by then about future direction from the major players (but I had the same hope last year, to no avail). High end FF ML action body is not in the cards for me in the near future (A9 series too low pixel density for me, nothing in sight from Canikon) and for APS-C the only realistic option for me is Nikon D500 - but that's nearly 4 years old now with high cost and uncertain future path. Nikon may go for a lukewarm D7600 upgrade, much like the 90D that isn't a real upgrade to the 7D2 ...Show more →
rscheffler wrote:
The 90D is not a mirrorless camera, so this is a bit of a tangent, but with a high resolution EVF, such as the one in the Leica SL, I found I could manually focus 50mm and longer lenses very consistently and precisely without peaking or magnification. Hopefully as EVFs improve and the resolution increases, this will also become available with Canon's mirrorless cameras.
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Actually it is a mirrorless camera, in a roundabout way. Canon's mirrorless implementation has been in the works in the DPAF LiveView mode in their DSLRs for years. Their mirrorless cameras share all the same things as liveview DPAF on the 90D. The 90D is, in reality, a hybrid DSLR and mirrorless with the latest DPAF, eye AF, focus peaking capabilities, etc that Canon put on the R series and M series.
Canon doesn't have a second different set of hardware and software for their mirrorless lines, they are just beefing up their DPAF liveview systems.
Also, the 90D should be fine for field sports, it has already been used at NFL games by folks on the boards. If I can shoot sports with the M50, the 90D will be ok. They won't be like the 7D2 for sure, but decent enough.
ChrisMak wrote:
The Nikon D500 is getting really affordable now, at around 1600,- euros. It may be "old" tech, but who cares if it takes fantastic images? Only thing is: you can't mount Canon lenses on it.
Canon is putting out a strange collection of bodies: all have their strengths, but not one is really tempting. So where with Nikon it would be a no brainer D500, with Canon, I find myself going back and forth between keeping the 7DII, getting the D90, getting the M6mkII, getting the EOS-R, getting the 5DIV, and I end up .... keeping the 7DII, despite its aging and limited sensor.
What a mess.... I wish I was shooting Nikon!
The bare D500 indeed went down recently, but I really want the 16-80VR zoom with it for more general use, otherwise it's difficult to replace my current Canon gear; but the 16-80VR kit is still the old price. Yes D500 will keep taking great pictures but the future path for Nikon APS-C DSLRs is muddy, which makes a significant investment tricky (I don't have any Nikon lenses yet). Also D500 has one clear downside for me which is the slow Liveview AF that I use a lot for macro photography nowadays, when I cannot use the OVF; this limitation would almost require me to keep a Canon body for such shots. A D7600 that has the best of both worlds (D500 PDAF and improved Liveview AF) would be very tempting but I don't see it happening. I don't have any must-have Canon lenses so nothing to worry about in that area, everything I need I can get from Nikon or third party like Sigma (e.g. for macro).
Agree about the messy situation with Canon bodies, almost as if Canon want you to buy all of them because of the clever way they have spread the good and bad among all bodies and lenses
TeamSpeed wrote:
Actually it is a mirrorless camera, in a roundabout way. Canon's mirrorless implementation has been in the works in the DPAF LiveView mode in their DSLRs for years. Their mirrorless cameras share all the same things as liveview DPAF on the 90D. The 90D is, in reality, a hybrid DSLR and mirrorless with the latest DPAF, eye AF, focus peaking capabilities, etc that Canon put on the R series and M series.
Canon doesn't have a second different set of hardware and software for their mirrorless lines, they are just beefing up their DPAF liveview systems.
Mirrorless but without an EVF - which is a serious limitation for fast action IMHO when the PDAF system that is tied to the OVF is less capable.
technic wrote:
Mirrorless but without an EVF - which is a serious limitation for fast action IMHO when the PDAF system that is tied to the OVF is less capable.
Sure, my point is that the ONLY difference between something like the 90D and the M6 is the mirror and EVF. The sensor, software, hardware, etc are all the same in various DSLR vs mirrorless bodies. No differentiation in function or feature, focus peaking is focus peaking, etc. The 90D is indeed a mirrorless camera, just without an EVF, like some of the M bodies, mirrorless isn't defined by the EVF.
I guess I don't understand the comment though about fast action when a PDAF OVF is less capable? less than what?
TeamSpeed wrote:
Sure, my point is that the ONLY difference between something like the 90D and the M6 is the mirror and EVF. The sensor, software, hardware, etc are all the same in various DSLR vs mirrorless bodies. No differentiation in function or feature, focus peaking is focus peaking, etc. The 90D is indeed a mirrorless camera, just without an EVF, like some of the M bodies, mirrorless isn't defined by the EVF.
I guess I don't understand the comment though about fast action when a PDAF OVF is less capable? less than what?
"less capable" = not really for fast action like a 7D2, D500 etc mainly because of AF system (and to some extent because of buffer/bandwidth etc.). If Canon had another recent body that was highly capable there would not be a problem ...
Good to hear that 90D and M6II are equal in the mirrorless department, in 80D era that wasn't yet the case - the Liveview LCD display refresh and DPAF speed of 80D is much slower than in ML alternatives of that time.
technic wrote:
Good to hear that 90D and M6II are equal in the mirrorless department, in 80D era that wasn't yet the case - the Liveview LCD display refresh and DPAF speed of 80D is much slower than in ML alternatives of that time.
Canon may well have put their R&D on hold for viewfinder phase detection AF, instead going for the development of their PDAF system, and giving Dslr users a preview in the 90D..
Which again brings to the table the question of how to replace the 7DII....
TeamSpeed wrote:
The 90D is indeed a mirrorless camera, just without an EVF,
It's a mirrorless camera ... that comes with the added bonus of an extra mirror available for optional, but default, use at the discretionary preference of the user.
So, we had mirrorless (use) cameras (with built in optional mirrors) even BEFORE we had EVF (i.e. Live View).
Actually, we had mirrorless (use) cameras even before digital (by that logic) whenever we used mirror lockup and shot without the mirror.
Well, as long as I'm going backwards ... ummm, Camera Obscura forward to the SLR was mirrorless, as well as view cameras, rangefinders, etc..
TeamSpeed wrote:
Actually it is a mirrorless camera, in a roundabout way. Canon's mirrorless implementation has been in the works in the DPAF LiveView mode in their DSLRs for years. Their mirrorless cameras share all the same things as liveview DPAF on the 90D. The 90D is, in reality, a hybrid DSLR and mirrorless with the latest DPAF, eye AF, focus peaking capabilities, etc that Canon put on the R series and M series.
Canon doesn't have a second different set of hardware and software for their mirrorless lines, they are just beefing up their DPAF liveview systems.
Also, the 90D should be fine for field sports, it has already been used at NFL games by folks on the boards. If I can shoot sports with the M50, the 90D will be ok. They won't be like the 7D2 for sure, but decent enough. ...Show more →
Well, it still has a mirror and at least the 80D focus system so it is mirrored in that respect. Also, the optical viewfinder is decidedly mirrorless.
But I see you point. I bought the M6 ii, which is purely mirrorless. It's a great camera, though it is going to take some getting used to. The sensor, same as the 90D, is excellent. A half step above the 80D in terms of noise, but the resolution is very useful.
Firsrt 4 are with the 500/4 with the 1.4X, while the last shot is a heavy crop using the 100-400 II. Tracking with the M6 ii is good, but it's very weird with the EVF compared to an optical viewfinder. I won't be tossing my 5D4 aside any time soon.
A couple of M6 ii shots, because I like showing off...
technic wrote:
second shot to confirm that this isn't the best camera for action?
Actually, it was a poor choice to post for the purpose of showing off the camera. I had focus on the bluebird on the right, single point, for a sequence of shots involving 3 bluebirds and a towhee. This was just part of the sequence, and while the other birds were slightly off the plane of focus, their activity was pretty interesting.
So basically, the camera did exactly what it should, while the user (me) didn't use the correct settings for the situation. I really wasn't set up for action. It just happened, and it was interesting despite being a little off.
All that is not to say that the M6ii is going to be a great action camera. I have to work with it a while, as it is quite different from the DSLR with the optical viewfinder path. Time will tell in that respect.
I'd certainly like it to work well for that purpose, for the same reason that the 90D would be a good choice - the higher pixel density, with seemingly no noise penalty. It's a great sensor.
Tom_W wrote:
...The sensor, same as the 90D, is excellent. A half step above the 80D in terms of noise, but the resolution is very useful. ...
Tom, are you saying the noise is a half stop more than the 80D at the pixel level? Some other sources have reported better noise, at least at the higher ISOs but this may be normalized. Also, live view cameras and compacts may be a bit noisier due to heat dissipation. Could you expand on your observations a bit? Thanks.
Your images look lovely BTW so noise doesn't look like that much of an issue.
Tom_W wrote:
All that is not to say that the M6ii is going to be a great action camera. I have to work with it a while, as it is quite different from the DSLR with the optical viewfinder path. Time will tell in that respect.
I'd certainly like it to work well for that purpose, for the same reason that the 90D would be a good choice - the higher pixel density, with seemingly no noise penalty. It's a great sensor.
Gordon from Cameralabs.com says that people who are after BIF should take the M6II and NOT the 90D, which is contrary to what one would initially expect. He is not a nature photographer AFAIK but his advice is usually solid. Will be interesting to see how this works out in practice.
For wildlife etc. the M6II has very little size/weight/cost advantage (if any) over 90D because you need the EVF, EF adapter and extra battery. But it at least leaves the option to have an extra-compact camera for walkaround photography (with the 2/22 or 15-45 kit, although the 32MP sensor probably deserves a better APS-C standard zoom).
technic wrote:
For wildlife etc. the M6II has very little size/weight/cost advantage (if any) over 90D because you need the EVF, EF adapter and extra battery. But it at least leaves the option to have an extra-compact camera for walkaround photography (with the 2/22 or 15-45 kit, although the 32MP sensor probably deserves a better APS-C standard zoom).
Good point. I also agree about the APS-C standard zoom. The 15-85 still seems the best EF-S option and the EF-M 15-45 didn't look that good in the raw samples I downloaded, more like the 18-55. Nothing that really competes with the f4 L standard zooms for FF. So far, in my use and comparisons, the G1X3 has the best APS-C standard zoom.
I had a 15-45 STM on my M3 and it was really underwhelming and certainly no match for the 15-85 USM or 18-55 STM. The 15-85 USM is surprisingly smooth for movie servo on the 90D, especially considering it isn't a nano-USM or STM design.
Gochugogi wrote:
The 15-85 USM is surprisingly smooth for movie servo on the 90D
Thats really good to hear since its still my standard zoom for crop bodies. Mostly my wife uses it on her 77D but I don't think she does much video. I remember trying video on it back in the day and it was pretty herky-jerky.
Jeff Nolten wrote:
Thats really good to hear since its still my standard zoom for crop bodies. Mostly my wife uses it on her 77D but I don't think she does much video. I remember trying video on it back in the day and it was pretty herky-jerky.
IMHO the 15-85IS isn't sharp enough in much of the range / frame for the 24MP sensor of the 80D, let alone 32MP on 90D and M6II. It was a nice lens for the 12-18MP generation of sensors but really needs an update to see what the latests sensors can do. I still use the 15-85 on my 80D due to lack of real alternative, which is sad ... compared to e.g. the Nikon 16-80VR lens it is really an outdated design.
I had heard some good stories about the EFM 15-45 but apparently those were not representative (maybe too much sample variation, like with the 15-85?).
Jeff Nolten wrote:
Thats really good to hear since its still my standard zoom for crop bodies. Mostly my wife uses it on her 77D but I don't think she does much video. I remember trying video on it back in the day and it was pretty herky-jerky.
The 15-85 was really jerky on my 70D and has gotten smoother at movie servo with each XXD generation. I've been pleased with the sharpness on my 90D but maybe I lucked out with a good sample (makes up fro the terrible 15-45!).
