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Archive 2019 · Canon 90D results

  
 
lighthound
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p.13 #1 · Canon 90D results


A slightly high ISO (25,600) shot from last weekend.
Handheld full frame uncropped.







Oct 09, 2019 at 09:52 AM
AvianScott
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p.13 #2 · Canon 90D results


lighthound wrote:
A slightly high ISO (25,600) shot from last weekend.
Handheld full frame uncropped.


This is fantastic! What NR software was used?




Oct 09, 2019 at 11:36 AM
mitesh
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p.13 #3 · Canon 90D results


lighthound wrote:
A slightly high ISO (25,600) shot from last weekend.
Handheld full frame uncropped.


Great image, Dave! I see that 500 II is getting a good workout 👍. A little jealous that you’re out shooting bears without me 😂



Oct 09, 2019 at 11:47 AM
lighthound
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p.13 #4 · Canon 90D results


AvianScott wrote:
This is fantastic! What NR software was used?



Thanks! I think I sent this one over into AI Clear to clean it up a little.

---------------------------------------------

mitesh wrote:
Great image, Dave! I see that 500 II is getting a good workout 👍. A little jealous that you’re out shooting bears without me 😂


Hi Mitesh! Thanks! It's not NatGeo quality but it works for me as a "just get a decent documentary shot".
I don't get to see these guys in this particular area much and had to do some quick hiking/bushwacking to find him after he made a very brief appearance in a field about 400 yards away then quickly disappeared into the bush.
He apparently loves the sound of 10fps coming off this 90D cause he came running towards me like a puppy dog when he locked in on where the clicking sound was coming from.
Who knew!

And yes, I'm loving this 500 II on this little 90D cropper. I haven't had much good light with it yet so I'm hoping the best is yet to come. This shot was taken inside the forest on a very dark overcast day.
We gotta get back out there one of these days.



Oct 09, 2019 at 01:00 PM
lighthound
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p.13 #5 · Canon 90D results


I tried out the focus stacking feature tonight. I'm by no means an expert on this but from what I can see it looks pretty nice.

11 images stacked using DPP then some quick processing in LR.
First image is the full frame second is a crop of the same image.












Oct 09, 2019 at 07:26 PM
rscheffler
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p.13 #6 · Canon 90D results


Yaryman wrote:
No Birds in Flight.
Just a Steeler flying by last Sunday at Levi's Stadium.
Canon 90D - Canon 400mm f2.8 at 4.0 - ISO 200 - 1/1250


I got my hands on 90D to try for a couple weeks and intend to use it for some football, too.

Initial impressions are it's a fun camera to use. It's small but comfortable in the hand (I don't have the vertical grip for it) with good button and dial placement and is responsive. AI Servo speed does slow down a bit depending on what AF parameters are set and the buffer is a bit restrictive (I don't have any of the faster UHS-II SDXC cards).

I also love the WiFi feature and being able to remote trigger the camera via live view on a smartphone or tablet, etc. (I guess this is pretty standard now on all cameras other than the 1DXII.)

Given I'd want to use this camera for some sports work, the DSLR currently seems to be the better option, but for other photography, I'm more curious about the M6II, given it's pretty similar to the 90D.

Coming from a 1DXII (for which a WiFi dongle is $$$), which I intend to keep using as my main action camera, there are a few small details that bug me thus far (I'm sure more will pop up with further use):

- No option to have it automatically switch either the shutter speed or the ISO to keep the same manual exposure value when the aperture changes. In my instance, this would be while shooting action with the 200-400 and flipping in the TC (which I flip between a lot when shooting field sports). But it's also handy when changing lenses. Say, shooting at f/2 with a given lens and switching to an f/2.8 zoom, etc. In this case, that CF setting would automatically bump up the ISO one stop.

- Different aperture values when switching between AV and M. For example, if I'm in manual mode and have the aperture at f/1.4, but the last time I was in AV mode it was set to f/4, when I switch to AV, it jumps to f/4 rather than staying at f/1.4. It's the same with TV and M, where each will be set to a different shutter speed rather than the last one used by the previous mode. Not sure the logic of this, but it initially caught me off-guard. Similarly, when I first shot in in live view, I didn't realize the AF mode didn't carry over from OVF shooting. It was in AI Servo for the OVF, but was in One Shot in live view.

- On the 1DXII I use the Set button to immediately view the image at a given magnification, which isn't an option for the 90D... double tapping the 1DXII's Set button is a quick way for me to view an image without having to search for the small playback button on the back of the camera.

I have the 90D's Set button set to change ISO when it's held down. But there is a funny behaviour here if the camera is set to Auto ISO: you can change the ISO to whatever you prefer, but as soon as the meter turns off, it resets to Auto ISO. That said, if ISO is set manually, when it's changed via the Set button, it remains at the new setting. With the 1DXII, sometimes I use the rear wheel to change ISO rather than shutter or aperture. If the camera is in Auto ISO and I turn the wheel, it changes the ISO and leaves it at that ISO until I change it again. And with the 90D (like every Canon I've used), it's still not possible to scroll directly to Auto ISO below ISO 100; rather the ISO button must be depressed. Why, Canon?

- No protect/rating button, requires menu diving.

Granted, the 90D is in a different 'class' from the 1DXII, the 5D series and apparently even the 7DII, all of which seem to share most of the 'higher end' CF settings.

Something worrying me more is what appears to be slight back focus (at least with this copy) when using AF and live view. I've played around a bit with this in fairly controlled environments and with two lenses: 35/2 IS and 85/1.4L IS. I tried a few different AF point options, including spot AF and it was consistent. I could always improve image sharpness by zooming in and manually tweaking focus. (And why is it with the 90D when zoomed in with live view magnification that activating AF jumps out of magnification?) That said, image sharpness with live view AF has generally be acceptable in most situations, but I was able to consistently improve fine detail sharpness at the intended point of focus by tweaking it manually. Wondering if anyone else has noticed this or is able to duplicate it?

I even tried AFMA, including massive +/- 20 extremes, without any noticeable difference in live view AF focus plane placement (I guess AFMA is strictly for the OVF AF system).



Oct 10, 2019 at 01:06 PM
technic
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p.13 #7 · Canon 90D results


rscheffler wrote:
- Different aperture values when switching between AV and M. For example, if I'm in manual mode and have the aperture at f/1.4, but the last time I was in AV mode it was set to f/4, when I switch to AV, it jumps to f/4 rather than staying at f/1.4. It's the same with TV and M, where each will be set to a different shutter speed rather than the last one used by the previous mode. Not sure the logic of this, but it initially caught me off-guard. Similarly, when I first shot in in live view, I
...Show more

I have the 80D which is probably very similar: yes, some of the settings are tied to the mode selector and this sometimes confuses me too, even more when using C1/C2 and temporarily switching back to e.g. AV which means you probably get a different ISO value as well. AF modes: agree about that too. My 80D has a strong desire to switch to face detection mode in Liveview which I hate because people/portrait shooting is less than 1% of my photography and this mode is completely counter-productive to me. Again and again it activates at the wrong moment and it seems there is no way to completely remove it from the menu

rscheffler wrote:
Something worrying me more is what appears to be slight back focus (at least with this copy) when using AF and live view. I've played around a bit with this in fairly controlled environments and with two lenses: 35/2 IS and 85/1.4L IS. I tried a few different AF point options, including spot AF and it was consistent. I could always improve image sharpness by zooming in and manually tweaking focus. (And why is it with the 90D when zoomed in with live view magnification that activating AF jumps out of magnification?) That said, image sharpness with live view AF
...Show more

This all sounds very much like the 80D. Liveview AF tends to focus on the BACK of the subject instead of the FRONT (which IMHO would be the most logical option) and even with flat subjects it is NOT exact but frequently 1-2 clicks off from perfect focus using MF in Liveview (10x magnified). The Liveview magnification mode has several naughty limitations indeed, could use lots of improvement. Also, on my 80D the single point focus point is much larger than indicated on the display (90D which has smaller focus points in Liveview from what I remember, maybe the indicated box size on 90D is more accurate), Liveview DPAF will happily focus on high contrast details that are way outside the indicated focus point.

AFMA is indeed not supposed to make any difference to Liveview focus and only for the PDAF system. On my 80D this seems a kludge just the same: most of my lenses don't need any AFMA, but my 100-400 is perfect at infinity while needing -20 AFMA near MFD (almost irrespective of focal length). And there is no way to adjust AFMA to actual subject distance, so you either have a lens focusing for infinity or for closeup, but never both (and using Liveview with a 100-400 is a nightmare in most outdoors situations).

Also keep in mind that Liveview won't save you from focus shift because the DPAF system may be focusing at a larger aperture (lower f-stop) than the actual value used for the image, which in practice often means some slight backfocus if the lens has spherical aberration.



Oct 10, 2019 at 03:15 PM
Andrew J
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p.13 #8 · Canon 90D results


Something worrying me more is what appears to be slight back focus (at least with this copy) when using AF and live view.
-----------------------------------------
I'm sure this is true but I would try one of the other AF modes. There are 3 or 4 and in LV they seem to vary a bit.



Oct 10, 2019 at 06:34 PM
Andrew J
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p.13 #9 · Canon 90D results


Live-View Servo

IMG_9149 by Andrew J, on Flickr




Oct 10, 2019 at 07:31 PM
rscheffler
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p.13 #10 · Canon 90D results


technic wrote:
This all sounds very much like the 80D. Liveview AF tends to focus on the BACK of the subject instead of the FRONT (which IMHO would be the most logical option) and even with flat subjects it is NOT exact but frequently 1-2 clicks off from perfect focus using MF in Liveview (10x magnified). The Liveview magnification mode has several naughty limitations indeed, could use lots of improvement. Also, on my 80D the single point focus point is much larger than indicated on the display (90D which has smaller focus points in Liveview from what I remember, maybe the indicated
...Show more

Thanks for your input! A while back I borrowed an M5 and found it would frequently focus on the higher contrast edges of people's heads, back by their ears, rather than on their faces. Didn't happen all the time, but still it was enough to be annoying. Yes, I believe the 90D introduced spot point for live view AF, which was what I switched to when doing the more controlled testing. And yes, flat objects were often just slightly off and better when manually focused with the 90D's 10x live view magnification. I also shot those wide open so focus shift wouldn't be a problem. Would be nice if Canon provided the option to choose whether or not the camera focuses at the shooting aperture or wide open.

That said, I did some 'real world' people photography today with the 85/1.4L IS wide open, primarily using face/eye detect AF in live view and the keeper rate was quite high. Biggest annoyance was it jumping from one eye to another when the person's head was turned slightly. Meaning sometimes it was focusing on the far eye, which was evident in the images. Face/eye detect live view AF was noticeably more consistent than using PDAF through the the OVF.

---------------------------------------------

Andrew J wrote:
Something worrying me more is what appears to be slight back focus (at least with this copy) when using AF and live view.

I'm sure this is true but I would try one of the other AF modes. There are 3 or 4 and in LV they seem to vary a bit.


I started with the regular point then switched to spot AF and it still happened.

Looking more closely at the files today and this pixel density is perhaps pushing it a bit, or I'm just not used to the look. I don't mind a bit of 'natural' noise, even at ISO 100, which is definitely present. Higher ISOs are a bit sketchy looking, IMO. Lens quality is much more noticeable, as is missed focus and poor shooting technique, subject motion, etc.



Oct 10, 2019 at 11:24 PM
alundeb
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p.13 #11 · Canon 90D results


rscheffler wrote:
And yes, flat objects were often just slightly off and better when manually focused with the 90D's 10x live view magnification.


I thinks this is the case with all phase detect AF systems, more or less. Or have you experienced that the grass is greener elsewhere?

https://blog.kasson.com/a7riv/sony-a7riv-af-s-focusing-accuracy/



Oct 11, 2019 at 02:39 AM
technic
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p.13 #12 · Canon 90D results


rscheffler wrote:
Thanks for your input! A while back I borrowed an M5 and found it would frequently focus on the higher contrast edges of people's heads, back by their ears, rather than on their faces. Didn't happen all the time, but still it was enough to be annoying. Yes, I believe the 90D introduced spot point for live view AF, which was what I switched to when doing the more controlled testing. And yes, flat objects were often just slightly off and better when manually focused with the 90D's 10x live view magnification. I also shot those wide open so focus
...Show more

What you describe for the M5 is also what I see with Liveview on the 80D (and apparently same as on 90D). Even if there are clear (but probably smaller) high contrast details under the spot area, it tends to focus on the edge of the subjects head/torso (often outside the official spot focus area) which means almost by definition backfocus. IMHO this points to a wrong implementation of DPAF focusing, but maybe the problem is that Canon isn't really evaluating different focus points (spot areas) in Liveview but only comparing contrast detected by different focus points - with the result that any high contrast edge that is somewhere near will determine focus.

For my kind of subjects (mostly macro) it makes DPAF unreliable, even more because on the LCD you usually cannot see the difference between focusing on the back or front of the subject. Frequently focus will be off enough to ruin the image, which would never happen to me with MF - but I use Liveview AF mostly in situations where looking through the viewfinder or using LV magnified manual focus is impossible. A good implementation of focus peaking (with magnification) could prevent this problem but apparently the 90D still doesn't have this? I don't know if e.g. Nikon Liveview focus has the same problem but at least on their DSLRs it is much slower than on a Canon DSLR so not an alternative. Probably a hires EVF (ML camera) works better too but I have no experience with that.

On my 80D single point focus is the standard setting for Liveview, I only switch back to multiple points in special situations where the camera is possibly better at choosing the focus point (e.g. fast moving subjects or people group shots). I'm not a portrait photographer but I also wonder why the AF system would switch to the far eye, which IMHO is nearly always the wrong choice - should be easy to determine which eye is closest ....



Oct 11, 2019 at 04:11 AM
TeamSpeed
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p.13 #13 · Canon 90D results


The 90d has focus peaking....


Oct 11, 2019 at 05:01 AM
technic
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p.13 #14 · Canon 90D results


TeamSpeed wrote:
The 90d has focus peaking....


But can you use some kind of magnification together with focus peaking (either using DPAF or MF)? Because otherwise it is still not possible to see what the camera is focusing on with the back LCD, unless the subject is extremely simple.



Oct 11, 2019 at 05:24 AM
TeamSpeed
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p.13 #15 · Canon 90D results


technic wrote:
But can you use some kind of magnification together with focus peaking (either using DPAF or MF)? Because otherwise it is still not possible to see what the camera is focusing on with the back LCD, unless the subject is extremely simple.


None of Canon's models allow focus peaking and magnification at the same time. However I have never had an issue where I felt I needed both. If I want a digital 5x or 10x zoom, that is always a better but more difficult way, and focus peaking works great for all other things that don't need super critical narrow DOF focusing.

I can manually focus my portrait 50 1.2 lens via focus peaking on the eyes of a person with no issues at all, for example, or shoot macros. It works very, very well. I rarely use the 5x mag mode, except for things like moon shots, or where I am shooting something that is about 1/10th the frame and I want critical focus within that object.








Oct 11, 2019 at 07:53 AM
rscheffler
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p.13 #16 · Canon 90D results


rscheffler wrote:
And yes, flat objects were often just slightly off and better when manually focused with the 90D's 10x live view magnification.

alundeb wrote:
I thinks this is the case with all phase detect AF systems, more or less. Or have you experienced that the grass is greener elsewhere?

https://blog.kasson.com/a7riv/sony-a7riv-af-s-focusing-accuracy/


I've used some of the Sony cameras, such as the a7, a7R, a7S, a7II and a9 on separate occasions only on an evaluative basis with a not so broad range of their lenses. I tried the a7RII with their 24-70/2.8 and 85/1.4, which was the only time I had the 85 from Sony and was the narrowest depth of field lens I had from them. I don't recall experiencing the problem I mentioned with the 90D, but, AF of non-static subjects with the a7RII was on the whole frustrating and inconsistent, to the point where I didn't bother diving deeper with it because it clearly wasn't going to suit my typical use cases. My experience with the a9 was significantly better, but I had different lenses on loan with it, primarily for shooting sports; the 70-200/2.8 and 100-400. I did shoot a couple weddings with it, too, and in those situations with the 70-200 didn't notice any consistent misses. BUT, as I touched on above, working with the 90D and 85/1.4, shooting primarily wide open to torture test live view AF, typically at head & shoulder and half body distances, I am satisfied with the results. Focus sometimes was not perfect, but it's difficult to know if it was face/eye detect focusing on the wrong/far eye because, as mentioned earlier, sometimes it would jump back and forth from eye to eye. As to why it would do this, it's probably how the algorithm works balancing what it detects as a face and eyes against where the best contrast is. This problem of jumping back and forth between eyes is worse when both are nearly in the same plane of focus and where the shallow depth of field of an 85/1.4 used wide open will show slight focus misses when the camera focuses on the far eye. It's probably a matter of Canon having to refine the system further, but so far I think it works pretty well and seems more dependable than OVF AF.



Oct 11, 2019 at 09:00 AM
rscheffler
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p.13 #17 · Canon 90D results


TeamSpeed wrote:
The 90d has focus peaking....

technic wrote:
But can you use some kind of magnification together with focus peaking (either using DPAF or MF)? Because otherwise it is still not possible to see what the camera is focusing on with the back LCD, unless the subject is extremely simple.


This was already answered; no. I had a quick play with focus peaking and Canon's implementation seems good. I prefer the 'low' setting because it seems a bit more selective. With the 85/1.4 I could sweep through an area and stop pretty precisely on an intended point of focus and be acceptably close. For absolutely critical focus it's best to jump to 5x or 10x. In these cases, I actually prefer not to have peaking so I can better see the actual image content, rather than the peaking masking some of it. But maybe that's just me.

It's necessary to switch the lens to MF for peaking to activate, which is a bit annoying in my case because I tape over the AF/MF switch to prevent accidental changes during use. It appears peaking will work without electronic communication with the lens, i.e. for adapting other mount lenses with dumb adapters.

The 90D is not a mirrorless camera, so this is a bit of a tangent, but with a high resolution EVF, such as the one in the Leica SL, I found I could manually focus 50mm and longer lenses very consistently and precisely without peaking or magnification. Hopefully as EVFs improve and the resolution increases, this will also become available with Canon's mirrorless cameras.

I still need to evaluate the 90D shooting sports to see how it does there with the 200-400, but other than that application, my feeling is I should probably instead be evaluating the the M6II because I'm finding myself using the 90D increasingly in live view for the confidence of seemingly better AF consistency. Given the live view capabilities of the 90D, I get the feeling it's probably one of the last DSLRs we'll see from Canon.



Oct 11, 2019 at 09:11 AM
technic
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p.13 #18 · Canon 90D results


rscheffler wrote:
This was already answered; no. I had a quick play with focus peaking and Canon's implementation seems good. I prefer the 'low' setting because it seems a bit more selective. With the 85/1.4 I could sweep through an area and stop pretty precisely on an intended point of focus and be acceptably close. For absolutely critical focus it's best to jump to 5x or 10x. In these cases, I actually prefer not to have peaking so I can better see the actual image content, rather than the peaking masking some of it. But maybe that's just me.

It's necessary to
...Show more

Ok, good to know. Having to switch the lens to MF is a problem for me because I would primarily use this function with the 100L macro and with that lens accidentally switching off the IS is a major problem for me. I have tried taping the IS switch before but this is a problem in the rare situations where I definitely do NOT want IS on (like when taking pictures of hunting dragonflies where the IS starts working against you due to the very fast movements). With the 100L I almost by definition use MF when looking through the OVF, and use Liveview AF when using the LCD (tilt screen); switching between the two is confusing, would be great if you could tie such settings for AF/MF or IS on/off to a C1/C2 setting,but unfortunately that isn't possible.

Incidentally, I noticed that Cameralabs (one of the better review sites IMHO) published their 90D review earlier this week and confirms DPReviews evaluation of the AF system:

"The increased burst speed is a nice bonus, but the viewfinder autofocus system is no better than the 80D and proved unremarkable for fast action in my tess. It’s much better at focusing in live view, but the bursts become slower and trying to follow action with the screen alone can prove a challenge. Revealingly the mirrorless M6 II which shares the same sensor proved much more capable for action in my tests, but ironically the 90D’s better features made it preferable for video, so choose carefully. Had Canon equipped the 90D with the 7D II’s viewfinder AF system, it could have had a leader in all respects. "

Sometimes it's really weird how strengths and weaknesses shift between the 90D and M6II. Maybe I should try M6II for fast action and see if the higher burst speed and better Liveview tracking compensate for the loss of real time viewfinder and the smaller buffer.

Regarding Liveview use: when I started using the 80D I quickly switched to using Liveview in many situations for the same reason you mention, better (more reliable) focus accuracy. While this doesn't work well for me for macro, for more general photography it works pretty well (quickly tapping the screen for where to focus) and sometimes watching the tilt screen works better too for following action or composing than using the OVF (although it is less "immersive" which is sometimes a disadvantage). Only for fast action the Liveview feels totally useless to me because the LCD display is running so much behind, I guess the 90D is significantly better there. But if the PDAF system is of little advantage in practice due to certain limitations then you could be using the M6II instead (or a small alternative like 200D/250D that is very similar for Liveview as the 80D).



Oct 11, 2019 at 09:36 AM
rscheffler
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p.13 #19 · Canon 90D results


My primary hesitation about the M6II is future compatibility. I currently only use EF lenses and it's no problem to adapt those to it. But given what I'm seeing with live view and the 90D, it's likely I'll move sooner than later to include mirrorless in my system. Given that all the 'cool' new lenses from Canon have been RF mount, it would be more logical to get an R camera to potentially use those and my existing EF system. With the M6II, I'd be locked out of the RF system.

My interest in the 90D was initially narrowly focused: a high MP cropper for use in reach limited field sports situations to augment the 1DXII. Initial evaluation of the files suggests to me that for general applications, I might be more comfortable with a ~30MP full frame sensor given that my system is already built around full frame and the lower pixel density would be more forgiving in a range of situations where I'm currently finding the 90D to be punishing in respect to somewhat lax shooting technique. I'm also not sold on high ISO performance above ~1600, where I sometimes work.



Oct 11, 2019 at 09:49 AM
technic
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p.13 #20 · Canon 90D results


rscheffler wrote:
My primary hesitation about the M6II is future compatibility. I currently only use EF lenses and it's no problem to adapt those to it. But given what I'm seeing with live view and the 90D, it's likely I'll move sooner than later to include mirrorless in my system. Given that all the 'cool' new lenses from Canon have been RF mount, it would be more logical to get an R camera to potentially use those and my existing EF system. With the M6II, I'd be locked out of the RF system.

My interest in the 90D was initially narrowly focused: a
...Show more

Future compatibility is a worry indeed. I'm not tempted myself by Canon R because the current R bodies and most RF lenses don't suit my subject well, but I'm tempted by the Nikon PF lenses which is a bit similar problem

I probably won't buy a new body until next spring and hopefully there is more clarity by then about future direction from the major players (but I had the same hope last year, to no avail). High end FF ML action body is not in the cards for me in the near future (A9 series too low pixel density for me, nothing in sight from Canikon) and for APS-C the only realistic option for me is Nikon D500 - but that's nearly 4 years old now with high cost and uncertain future path. Nikon may go for a lukewarm D7600 upgrade, much like the 90D that isn't a real upgrade to the 7D2



Oct 11, 2019 at 10:06 AM
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