Archive 2019 · TZE-01 Owners Unite! Images/Evaluation Data for Techart Sony E > Niko...
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.9 #1 · TZE-01 Owners Unite! Images/Evaluation Data for Techart Sony E > Nikon Z Autofocus Adapter / image picture pictu
Ok, I checked the EXIF data on focus distance for the two Loxia lenses I have as well and it turns out you get the same .63M for the Loxia lenses in focus distance as well. With the Nikon 50 f/1.8S, you get current focus distance in the EXIF. Not sure why TechArt made the strange decision to write .63M into the focus distance for E-mount manual focus lenses, but we definitely are not getting 5-axis IBIS. I will do some more testing later to see if IBIS is working at all with the TZE, and if it is how performance of the Voigtlaner 50 f/1.2 with the TZE compares to performance with a dumb adapter and to performance of the Nikon 50 f/1.8S.
p.9 #2 · TZE-01 Owners Unite! Images/Evaluation Data for Techart Sony E > Nikon Z Autofocus Adapter / image picture pictu
Thanks Steve. I do think it's getting some "bad" information, but if Loxia is writing that too, I don't recall seeing it with the Loxia when I had them, but then maybe I just missed it.
Anyway, it is "working" but it seems to be over compensating or something similar. More noticeable with wide angles, and you can see the drift while looking through the viewfinder. If you set a corresponding Non-CPU lens data and rotate the TZE-01 while leaving it in place, you can see the image get much more steady, basically the "drift" goes away.
Curious to hear what you find and/or if you witness the same with the Loxia.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Ok, I checked the EXIF data on focus distance for the two Loxia lenses I have as well and it turns out you get the same .63M for the Loxia lenses in focus distance as well. With the Nikon 50 f/1.8S, you get current focus distance in the EXIF. Not sure why TechArt made the strange decision to write .63M into the focus distance for E-mount manual focus lenses, but we definitely are not getting 5-axis IBIS. I will do some more testing later to see if IBIS is working at all with the TZE, and if it is how performance of the Voigtlaner 50 f/1.2 with the TZE compares to performance with a dumb adapter and to performance of the Nikon 50 f/1.8S. ...Show more →
p.9 #3 · TZE-01 Owners Unite! Images/Evaluation Data for Techart Sony E > Nikon Z Autofocus Adapter / image picture pictu
Steve Spencer wrote:
Ok, I checked the EXIF data on focus distance for the two Loxia lenses I have as well and it turns out you get the same .63M for the Loxia lenses in focus distance as well. With the Nikon 50 f/1.8S, you get current focus distance in the EXIF. Not sure why TechArt made the strange decision to write .63M into the focus distance for E-mount manual focus lenses, but we definitely are not getting 5-axis IBIS. I will do some more testing later to see if IBIS is working at all with the TZE, and if it is how performance of the Voigtlaner 50 f/1.2 with the TZE compares to performance with a dumb adapter and to performance of the Nikon 50 f/1.8S. ...Show more →
If you dump the whole EXIF data, you will see that the lens reported as 110mm F2.5 G for the Voigtlander 110 mm F2.5. I guess that Nikon Z will treat it as the G lens rather than S lens. Not sure about other lens since I only has the Voigtlander 110 E mount lens.
I remembered I read some E mount hack website saying the TechArt did not has correct encoding for few things. And they said TechArt did not pay for the Sony to get the full E mount specs. Not sure that is true or not.
p.9 #4 · TZE-01 Owners Unite! Images/Evaluation Data for Techart Sony E > Nikon Z Autofocus Adapter / image picture pictu
Wouldn't surprise me unfortunately. It's a pretty remarkable device, but it's actually making 12mm shots blurry. I could turn off IBIS for them but still a shame.
Anyone have the Loxia 21 and could see if they're seeing the same behavior of the IBIS on that lens? I like the Voigtlanders a lot but would consider the Loxia again if they're going to act better...
keithf wrote:
If you dump the whole EXIF data, you will see that the lens reported as 110mm F2.5 G for the Voigtlander 110 mm F2.5. I guess that Nikon Z will treat it as the G lens rather than S lens. Not sure about other lens since I only has the Voigtlander 110 E mount lens.
I remembered I read some E mount hack website saying the TechArt did not has correct encoding for few things. And they said TechArt did not pay for the Sony to get the full E mount specs. Not sure that is true or not.
Oct 16, 2019 at 11:27 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.9 #5 · TZE-01 Owners Unite! Images/Evaluation Data for Techart Sony E > Nikon Z Autofocus Adapter / image picture pictu
Mathieu18 wrote:
Wouldn't surprise me unfortunately. It's a pretty remarkable device, but it's actually making 12mm shots blurry. I could turn off IBIS for them but still a shame.
Anyone have the Loxia 21 and could see if they're seeing the same behavior of the IBIS on that lens? I like the Voigtlanders a lot but would consider the Loxia again if they're going to act better...
I still have the Loxia 25 and can check with that. I suspect it will show the same behavior, but we will see.
p.9 #6 · TZE-01 Owners Unite! Images/Evaluation Data for Techart Sony E > Nikon Z Autofocus Adapter / image picture pictu
Don’t understand. My Voigtlander working perfectly. If it use 3 axis ibis, it fine for me. Don’t see any issue with ibis. Z don’t use the distance but no harm. Same as my Nikon 105 DC F2.
Mathieu18 wrote:
Wouldn't surprise me unfortunately. It's a pretty remarkable device, but it's actually making 12mm shots blurry. I could turn off IBIS for them but still a shame.
Anyone have the Loxia 21 and could see if they're seeing the same behavior of the IBIS on that lens? I like the Voigtlanders a lot but would consider the Loxia again if they're going to act better...
p.9 #7 · TZE-01 Owners Unite! Images/Evaluation Data for Techart Sony E > Nikon Z Autofocus Adapter / image picture pictu
I don’t notice it on my 40. In hind sight I’ve seen it on my 21, but never seemed to have ill effect so thought it just was what it was. On the 12 it’s almost dizzying at times and it’s actually made a few shots blurry that should have been fine. Basically seems to be significantly worse the wise you go. I wasnt a believer either till I got the 12.
keithf wrote:
Don’t understand. My Voigtlander working perfectly. If it use 3 axis ibis, it fine for me. Don’t see any issue with ibis. Z don’t use the distance but no harm. Same as my Nikon 105 DC F2.
p.9 #8 · TZE-01 Owners Unite! Images/Evaluation Data for Techart Sony E > Nikon Z Autofocus Adapter / image picture pictu
What focal length it reported as for the 12mm?
Mathieu18 wrote:
I don’t notice it on my 40. In hind sight I’ve seen it on my 21, but never seemed to have ill effect so thought it just was what it was. On the 12 it’s almost dizzying at times and it’s actually made a few shots blurry that should have been fine. Basically seems to be significantly worse the wise you go. I wasnt a believer either till I got the 12.
p.9 #9 · TZE-01 Owners Unite! Images/Evaluation Data for Techart Sony E > Nikon Z Autofocus Adapter / image picture pictu
Reports as 12mm. Steve and I were discussing the other day. We're guessing that it's using the 0.63m distance info to stabilize, so it thinks its stabilizing a close up and over stabilizing infinity. Seems to follow it would be worse for a wide vs a short tele.
Edit: tried to get a video of it but I don't have the tools. Most visible when zoomed in, but very apparent...
keithf wrote:
What focal length it reported as for the 12mm?
p.9 #10 · TZE-01 Owners Unite! Images/Evaluation Data for Techart Sony E > Nikon Z Autofocus Adapter / image picture pictu
Here, not the best but hopefully you can see a bit. I was trying to do a small pan back and forth, otherwise had my hands resting on the desk, holding the camera. This is the 12mm at 100% focus magnification. First with connection, then I released the TZE-01 and partially rotated to break the electrical connection. Had Non-CPU set to 13mm, and can see its much, much more stable.
p.9 #11 · TZE-01 Owners Unite! Images/Evaluation Data for Techart Sony E > Nikon Z Autofocus Adapter / image picture pictu
The Loxia 25 has the same issues--IBIS not working right and a constant focus distance getting reported.
My guess right now is that Techart only reversed engineered parts of the protocol. They're probably having lenses masquerade as G lenses on the FTZ, which explains why pinpoint AF doesn't work. Unfortunately, the Z doesn't always behave well with masqueraded G lenses--Dandelion chipped lenses on the FTZ have the same problem with IBIS.
p.9 #12 · TZE-01 Owners Unite! Images/Evaluation Data for Techart Sony E > Nikon Z Autofocus Adapter / image picture pictu
Interestingly, the Loxia 25mm always records focus distance as .63m. A Dandelion chipped CV 180/4 (obviously no distance encoder) always records focus distance as .45m.
p.9 #13 · TZE-01 Owners Unite! Images/Evaluation Data for Techart Sony E > Nikon Z Autofocus Adapter / image picture pictu
Do you see the same issue (drift) in the viewfinder with the L25? I don't remember seeing it but don't have the lens anymore.
Agree they're masquerading as G's but why does that explain why Pinpoint doesn't work?
At any rate I'd agree that may well be the source, and its an important point. The TZE is itself masquerading as a FTZ I believe, and all AF-S lenses will have distance info, so it probably can't handle a null value even though the Loxia for example doesn't provide any. I guess Techart figured 0.63m would be the best compromise, but as we see with wides, it's over stabilizing to an extent it can ruin the shot itself. If all that is true then this can't be fixed by Techart. They'll have to write some value in, and it'll always have an ill effect away from that value...
johnvanatta wrote:
The Loxia 25 has the same issues--IBIS not working right and a constant focus distance getting reported.
My guess right now is that Techart only reversed engineered parts of the protocol. They're probably having lenses masquerade as G lenses on the FTZ, which explains why pinpoint AF doesn't work. Unfortunately, the Z doesn't always behave well with masqueraded G lenses--Dandelion chipped lenses on the FTZ have the same problem with IBIS.
Oct 16, 2019 at 02:17 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.9 #14 · TZE-01 Owners Unite! Images/Evaluation Data for Techart Sony E > Nikon Z Autofocus Adapter / image picture pictu
Mathieu18 wrote:
Do you see the same issue (drift) in the viewfinder with the L25? I don't remember seeing it but don't have the lens anymore.
Agree they're masquerading as G's but why does that explain why Pinpoint doesn't work?
At any rate I'd agree that may well be the source, and its an important point. The TZE is itself masquerading as a FTZ I believe, and all AF-S lenses will have distance info, so it probably can't handle a null value even though the Loxia for example doesn't provide any. I guess Techart figured 0.63m would be the best compromise, but as we see with wides, it's over stabilizing to an extent it can ruin the shot itself. If all that is true then this can't be fixed by Techart. They'll have to write some value in, and it'll always have an ill effect away from that value...
I don't know why they think .63M would be a good compromise. If they just enter infinity or any long distance (e.g., 1000M) it would just be 3-axis stabilization without any drift (as the focus distance approaches infinity the extra 2 axes add nothing to the stabilization). It seems like this could be easily fixed, they could just replace the .63M with infinity and then just have 3-axis stabilization. I would be happy with that.
p.9 #15 · TZE-01 Owners Unite! Images/Evaluation Data for Techart Sony E > Nikon Z Autofocus Adapter / image picture pictu
Pinpoint doesn't work with real, Nikon G lenses either. My understanding is that pinpoint uses CDAF more heavily (there's a CDAF "bounce pass" in pinpoint that isn't there with larger focus squares), so it's understandable that Nikon would want to avoid using it with their older PDAF-optimized lenses.
My recollection of the Lox 25 IBIS on the TZE was that that there was the "sloshy/drifting" feel when panning, and it was either failing to correct or adding in high-frequency jerky movements. Not nearly as bad as your video with the 12mm, but it was uncomfortable to look at 100% magnified for long periods of time. I returned the TZE and am trying dumb adapters right now.
p.9 #16 · TZE-01 Owners Unite! Images/Evaluation Data for Techart Sony E > Nikon Z Autofocus Adapter / image picture pictu
I was using Pinpoint with the 70-200 VRII yesterday morning doing some testing, worked fine? Same with the 70-200 FL a few days ago. Don't recall with the 85/1.8 or 50/1.8. Can test with the 18-35 too, but don't recall it ever not working with the FTZ?
Sounds like its everything then. It never bothered me with the 21mm either, the 12mm is another ball game though. I suspect that the ultrawides have a larger relative difference in amount of stabilization needed from close up to longer distances which increases the effect we're seeing? Have a dumb adapter as well, but hate to lose the focus aid, especially for the f/1.4 and f/1.2 lenses... Hmm...
johnvanatta wrote:
Pinpoint doesn't work with real, Nikon G lenses either. My understanding is that pinpoint uses CDAF more heavily (there's a CDAF "bounce pass" in pinpoint that isn't there with larger focus squares), so it's understandable that Nikon would want to avoid using it with their older PDAF-optimized lenses.
My recollection of the Lox 25 IBIS on the TZE was that that there was the "sloshy/drifting" feel when panning, and it was either failing to correct or adding in high-frequency jerky movements. Not nearly as bad as your video with the 12mm, but it was uncomfortable to look at 100% magnified for long periods of time. I returned the TZE and am trying dumb adapters right now....Show more →
p.9 #18 · TZE-01 Owners Unite! Images/Evaluation Data for Techart Sony E > Nikon Z Autofocus Adapter / image picture pictu
johnvanatta wrote:
Oh, maybe I'm mis-remembering...I could have sworn the Nikon 20/1.8 G didn't have pinpoint, but I sold it when i got the 14-30.
Will verify on some other lenses, but was testing the AF-S 80-200 against the 70-200 VRII yesterday and using AF-S / Pinpoint on the truck of a tree for both. Jim Kasson did an article a while back that pinpoint was the most accurate of the focus modes, but I don't remember if he was testing FTZ or Z lenses. Regardless, it's what I usually go to when testing... Just checked the 18-35G and Pinpoint worked fine there too.
Anyway, just FYI, I think your point about emulating G lenses and likely an FTZ is spot on, and probably means it can't be totally fixed...
Oct 16, 2019 at 03:58 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.9 #19 · TZE-01 Owners Unite! Images/Evaluation Data for Techart Sony E > Nikon Z Autofocus Adapter / image picture pictu
Ok, I did some IBIS testing. The first thing I can say is that the IBIS is definitely working with the TZE and the Voigtlander 50 f/1.2 E mount lens, but probably not as well as it does with a native lens. Here is what I did. I shot 20 shots with the CV 50 f/1.2 on the TZE with IBIS, a dumb adapter with IBIS, and a dumb adapter with IBIS off. I also shot the Nikon 50 f/1.8S. I used the Nikon Z7 for all shots. The target was about a meter away. I shot at 1/25, 1/13, and 1/6. Here are the results:
CV 50 f/1.2 with a dumb adapter and IBIS off: 1/25 - 4 out of 20 in focus; 1/13 - 0 out of 20 in focus; 1/6 - 0 out of 20 in focus
CV 50 f/1.2 with a dumb adapter and IBIS on: 1/25 - 19 our of 20 in focus; 1/13 - 18 out of 20 in focus; 1/6 12 out of 20 in focus
CV 50 f/1.2 with TZE and IBIS on: 1/25 - 20 out of 20 in focus; 1/13; 17 out of 20 in focus; 1/6 14 out of 20 in focus
Nikon 50 f/1.8S with IBIS on: 1/25 - 20 out of 20 in focus; 1/13 20 out of 20 in focus; 1/6 17 out of 20 in focus
So, IBIS, however it is implemented, is clearly working and is quite helpful compared to when it is shut off. I get the sense, but would need further testing to demonstrate it that the 5-axis native stabilization gets me about a stop more than the IBIS with an adapter.
For the time being I am going to shut IBIS off and use the TZE if I can get good shutter speed. If I need slower shutter speeds I will probably switch to my dumb adapter and turn IBIS on especially for wide angle shots, unless I really want the focus confirmation. I hope TechArt fixes this issue, but even if they don't I think the TZE will be useful and a welcome addition whenever I use faster shutter speeds and for me that is most of the time.
p.9 #20 · TZE-01 Owners Unite! Images/Evaluation Data for Techart Sony E > Nikon Z Autofocus Adapter / image picture pictu
So it’s asking a lot but... half meter is close to the .63m so follows its decent performance. Think you could repeat on a natural object at say 1000’ and see how performance varies?
Steve Spencer wrote:
Ok, I did some IBIS testing. The first thing I can say is that the IBIS is definitely working with the TZE and the Voigtlander 50 f/1.2 E mount lens, but probably not as well as it does with a native lens. Here is what I did. I shot 20 shots with the CV 50 f/1.2 on the TZE with IBIS, a dumb adapter with IBIS, and a dumb adapter with IBIS off. I also shot the Nikon 50 f/1.8S. I used the Nikon Z7 for all shots. The target was about a meter away. I shot at 1/25, 1/13, and 1/6. Here are the results:
CV 50 f/1.2 with a dumb adapter and IBIS off: 1/25 - 4 out of 20 in focus; 1/13 - 0 out of 20 in focus; 1/6 - 0 out of 20 in focus
CV 50 f/1.2 with a dumb adapter and IBIS on: 1/25 - 19 our of 20 in focus; 1/13 - 18 out of 20 in focus; 1/6 12 out of 20 in focus
CV 50 f/1.2 with TZE and IBIS on: 1/25 - 20 out of 20 in focus; 1/13; 17 out of 20 in focus; 1/6 14 out of 20 in focus
Nikon 50 f/1.8S with IBIS on: 1/25 - 20 out of 20 in focus; 1/13 20 out of 20 in focus; 1/6 17 out of 20 in focus
So, IBIS, however it is implemented, is clearly working and is quite helpful compared to when it is shut off. I get the sense, but would need further testing to demonstrate it that the 5-axis native stabilization gets me about a stop more than the IBIS with an adapter.
For the time being I am going to shut IBIS off and use the TZE if I can get good shutter speed. If I need slower shutter speeds I will probably switch to my dumb adapter and turn IBIS on especially for wide angle shots, unless I really want the focus confirmation. I hope TechArt fixes this issue, but even if they don't I think the TZE will be useful and a welcome addition whenever I use faster shutter speeds and for me that is most of the time....Show more →
