This topic is in the 2019 archive. You can read it and like its posts here. It is read only.
Archive 2019Deep dive into Z lens corrections (including impact on acuity)
p.3 #1Deep dive into Z lens corrections (including impact on acuity)
sjms wrote:
the LF firmware (lens distortion control) is the correction info. ver 1.00 is the current one for the Z series as of this time. on our DSLRs it 2.017 LD, L . it is intermittently updated. and yes this data is developed in advance.
That model predates the Z series and like you stated was used for the Nikon F mount, which for the Z would apply to FTZ-mounted lenses.
Lance B wrote
Rustybug asked an interesting question and one I hadn't even thought of. Does the image in the VF show the corrected or uncorrected image? One would hope the corrected image as that would mean you wouldn't miss out on incorrect composition due to distortion adjustment. If it is the uncorrected image shown in the VF, what is shown on image review, corrected or uncorrected? Which also begs the question, if it is corrected, then how did we get the lens algorithms into the camera? Surely Nikon didn't have the algorithms perfectly set up way back at the last firmware update as that would suggest that the 14-30 was done and dusted way back then? What kept them from releasing the lens if the distortion, vignetting, CA etc were already perfected, they can only do this if the lens design is completed. Why has it taken until mid April to release the lens if they had the algorithms set up at the last firmware update?That model predates the Z series and like you stated was used for the Nikon F mount, which for the Z would apply to FTZ-mounted lenses.
Apr 29, 2019 at 11:07 AM
p.3 #2Deep dive into Z lens corrections (including impact on acuity)
snapsy wrote:
the LF firmware (lens distortion control) is the correction info. ver 1.00 is the current one for the Z series as of this time. on our DSLRs it 2.017 LD, L . it is intermittently updated. and yes this data is developed in advance.That model predates the Z series and like you stated was used for the Nikon F mount, which for the Z would apply to FTZ-mounted lenses.
Well that’s the info that my current z6 has installed in on it v1 and is currently not downloadable at least for me. So are you sure that’s all thats in there?
sjms wrote
Lance B wrote
Rustybug asked an interesting question and one I hadn't even thought of. Does the image in the VF show the corrected or uncorrected image? One would hope the corrected image as that would mean you wouldn't miss out on incorrect composition due to distortion adjustment. If it is the uncorrected image shown in the VF, what is shown on image review, corrected or uncorrected? Which also begs the question, if it is corrected, then how did we get the lens algorithms into the camera? Surely Nikon didn't have the algorithms perfectly set up way back at the last firmware update as that would suggest that the 14-30 was done and dusted way back then? What kept them from releasing the lens if the distortion, vignetting, CA etc were already perfected, they can only do this if the lens design is completed. Why has it taken until mid April to release the lens if they had the algorithms set up at the last firmware update?Well that’s the info that my current z6 has installed in on it v1 and is currently not downloadable at least for me. So are you sure that’s all thats in there?
Apr 29, 2019 at 11:55 AM
p.3 #3Deep dive into Z lens corrections (including impact on acuity)
sjms wrote:
the LF firmware (lens distortion control) is the correction info. ver 1.00 is the current one for the Z series as of this time. on our DSLRs it 2.017 LD, L . it is intermittently updated. and yes this data is developed in advance.That model predates the Z series and like you stated was used for the Nikon F mount, which for the Z would apply to FTZ-mounted lenses.Well that’s the info that my current z6 has installed in on it. I think you need to check your current info.
I'm not following you. Why would the existence of camera-based lens correction profiles on a system that requires them for legacy support mean it would need to use that same model for a completely redesigned lens interface?
snapsy wrote
sjms wrote
Lance B wrote
Rustybug asked an interesting question and one I hadn't even thought of. Does the image in the VF show the corrected or uncorrected image? One would hope the corrected image as that would mean you wouldn't miss out on incorrect composition due to distortion adjustment. If it is the uncorrected image shown in the VF, what is shown on image review, corrected or uncorrected? Which also begs the question, if it is corrected, then how did we get the lens algorithms into the camera? Surely Nikon didn't have the algorithms perfectly set up way back at the last firmware update as that would suggest that the 14-30 was done and dusted way back then? What kept them from releasing the lens if the distortion, vignetting, CA etc were already perfected, they can only do this if the lens design is completed. Why has it taken until mid April to release the lens if they had the algorithms set up at the last firmware update?I'm not following you. Why would the existence of camera-based lens correction profiles on a system that requires them for legacy support mean it would need to use that same model for a completely redesigned lens interface?
Apr 29, 2019 at 12:19 PM
p.3 #4Deep dive into Z lens corrections (including impact on acuity)
ROM based on-lens corrections may or may not be there but are a one and done situation for most. Firmware based corrections give Nikon flexibility to evolve the algorithm. So I am guessing that they have something ROM based as a fail safe with the option of overriding it in the body or in the converter.
snapsy wrote:
the LF firmware (lens distortion control) is the correction info. ver 1.00 is the current one for the Z series as of this time. on our DSLRs it 2.017 LD, L . it is intermittently updated. and yes this data is developed in advance.That model predates the Z series and like you stated was used for the Nikon F mount, which for the Z would apply to FTZ-mounted lenses.Well that’s the info that my current z6 has installed in on it. I think you need to check your current info.I'm not following you. Why would the existence of camera-based lens correction profiles on a system that requires them for legacy support mean it would need to use that same model for a completely redesigned lens interface?
snapsy wrote:
sjms wrote
snapsy wrote
sjms wrote
Lance B wrote
Rustybug asked an interesting question and one I hadn't even thought of. Does the image in the VF show the corrected or uncorrected image? One would hope the corrected image as that would mean you wouldn't miss out on incorrect composition due to distortion adjustment. If it is the uncorrected image shown in the VF, what is shown on image review, corrected or uncorrected? Which also begs the question, if it is corrected, then how did we get the lens algorithms into the camera? Surely Nikon didn't have the algorithms perfectly set up way back at the last firmware update as that would suggest that the 14-30 was done and dusted way back then? What kept them from releasing the lens if the distortion, vignetting, CA etc were already perfected, they can only do this if the lens design is completed. Why has it taken until mid April to release the lens if they had the algorithms set up at the last firmware update?Apr 29, 2019 at 12:24 PM
p.3 #5Deep dive into Z lens corrections (including impact on acuity)
Remember we are assuming
Apr 29, 2019 at 12:26 PM
p.3 #6Deep dive into Z lens corrections (including impact on acuity)
GroovyGeek wrote:
ROM based on-lens corrections may or may not be there but are a one and done situation for most. Firmware based corrections give Nikon flexibility to evolve the algorithm. So I am guessing that they have something ROM based as a fail safe with the option of overriding it in the body or in the converter.
the LF firmware (lens distortion control) is the correction info. ver 1.00 is the current one for the Z series as of this time. on our DSLRs it 2.017 LD, L . it is intermittently updated. and yes this data is developed in advance.That model predates the Z series and like you stated was used for the Nikon F mount, which for the Z would apply to FTZ-mounted lenses.Well that’s the info that my current z6 has installed in on it. I think you need to check your current info.I'm not following you. Why would the existence of camera-based lens correction profiles on a system that requires them for legacy support mean it would need to use that same model for a completely redesigned lens interface?
I agree, the corrections for Z lenses likely can live in both the lens and camera, with a versioning mechanism to select whichever version is most current. I'm guessing Nikon also provisioned a method to update the lens firmware.
ROM based on-lens corrections may or may not be there but are a one and done situation for most. Firmware based corrections give Nikon flexibility to evolve the algorithm. So I am guessing that they have something ROM based as a fail safe with the option of overriding it in the body or in the converter.
snapsy wrote
sjms wrote
snapsy wrote
sjms wrote
Lance B wrote
Rustybug asked an interesting question and one I hadn't even thought of. Does the image in the VF show the corrected or uncorrected image? One would hope the corrected image as that would mean you wouldn't miss out on incorrect composition due to distortion adjustment. If it is the uncorrected image shown in the VF, what is shown on image review, corrected or uncorrected? Which also begs the question, if it is corrected, then how did we get the lens algorithms into the camera? Surely Nikon didn't have the algorithms perfectly set up way back at the last firmware update as that would suggest that the 14-30 was done and dusted way back then? What kept them from releasing the lens if the distortion, vignetting, CA etc were already perfected, they can only do this if the lens design is completed. Why has it taken until mid April to release the lens if they had the algorithms set up at the last firmware update?I agree, the corrections for Z lenses likely can live in both the lens and camera, with a versioning mechanism to select whichever version is most current. I'm guessing Nikon also provisioned a method to update the lens firmware.
Apr 29, 2019 at 06:49 PM
p.3 #7Deep dive into Z lens corrections (including impact on acuity)
hi, sorry to bring up an old thread. i there is a lot of really good information for background that i was previously unaware of.
in the 3.40 firmware on the Z7, there is an "Auto distortion control" option that you can toggle on and off. my setting is "OFF". i shot with the Z7 + ftz adapter and 58/1.4 today.
interestingly the viewfinder and even image review on the camera show the uncorrected image, whereas ACR and Lightroom apply the built-in lens corrections (can't turn them off). in Capture one and even Windows Preview it shows the same image as the camera's LCD.
it seems like to me that if you're using Adobe products, you MUST set this option to ON, otherwise what you think you're shooting won't match on your computer. you need to keep the deceit mode enabled at all times.
otherwise, if you prefer to set it to OFF, you must use DNG conversion + exiftool or one of the other RAW converters.
since i have one foot in DSLR land and one foot in mirrorless (hence my use of the ftz adapter), i must set it to off so the cameras treat the lens the same (no distortion autocorrections) and move away from Adobe software. is this the correct understanding?
in the 3.40 firmware on the Z7, there is an "Auto distortion control" option that you can toggle on and off. my setting is "OFF". i shot with the Z7 + ftz adapter and 58/1.4 today.
interestingly the viewfinder and even image review on the camera show the uncorrected image, whereas ACR and Lightroom apply the built-in lens corrections (can't turn them off). in Capture one and even Windows Preview it shows the same image as the camera's LCD.
it seems like to me that if you're using Adobe products, you MUST set this option to ON, otherwise what you think you're shooting won't match on your computer. you need to keep the deceit mode enabled at all times.
otherwise, if you prefer to set it to OFF, you must use DNG conversion + exiftool or one of the other RAW converters.
since i have one foot in DSLR land and one foot in mirrorless (hence my use of the ftz adapter), i must set it to off so the cameras treat the lens the same (no distortion autocorrections) and move away from Adobe software. is this the correct understanding?
Dec 26, 2022 at 02:44 AM
p.3 #8Deep dive into Z lens corrections (including impact on acuity)
Interesting read, but I really don’t see the point, corrected or uncorrected optically or via software as long as the image that I capture in the RAW file is what I see or thought I was capturing at the time I tripped the shutter?
The Z lenses that I own produce a superior image to any of the Nikon lenses that I have owned or rented over the decades of shooting Nikon lenses. I am impressed and very happy with the results and don’t care if the lens corrections are made optically or via software.
The Z lenses that I own produce a superior image to any of the Nikon lenses that I have owned or rented over the decades of shooting Nikon lenses. I am impressed and very happy with the results and don’t care if the lens corrections are made optically or via software.
Dec 26, 2022 at 11:18 AM
RoamingScott
Offline
Activity
[X]
Details
p.3 #9Deep dive into Z lens corrections (including impact on acuity)
Corrections made in software leave you less latitude in post (think heavy vignette correction). That’s the only reason you should care. It’s an edge case that rears its head rarely in practice.
MRomine wrote:
Interesting read, but I really don’t see the point, corrected or uncorrected optically or via software as long as the image that I capture in the RAW file is what I see or thought I was capturing at the time I tripped the shutter?
The Z lenses that I own produce a superior image to any of the Nikon lenses that I have owned or rented over the decades of shooting Nikon lenses. I am impressed and very happy with the results and don’t care if the lens corrections are made optically or via software.
MRomine wrote:
Interesting read, but I really don’t see the point, corrected or uncorrected optically or via software as long as the image that I capture in the RAW file is what I see or thought I was capturing at the time I tripped the shutter?
The Z lenses that I own produce a superior image to any of the Nikon lenses that I have owned or rented over the decades of shooting Nikon lenses. I am impressed and very happy with the results and don’t care if the lens corrections are made optically or via software.
Dec 26, 2022 at 12:55 PM
p.3 #10Deep dive into Z lens corrections (including impact on acuity)
loudtiger wrote:
since i have one foot in DSLR land and one foot in mirrorless (hence my use of the ftz adapter), i must set it to off so the cameras treat the lens the same (no distortion autocorrections) and move away from Adobe software. is this the correct understanding?
I don't think you get any corrections embedded when you use an F mount lens on a Z camera. The software may still have some if it knows which lens was used and has a profile for it. Of course the Z lenses won't work on an F body, at all. So it's strictly about Z lenses on Z bodies.
DxO PhotoLab 5 lets me turn off corrections and I think it has its own lens profiles as well. (Not sure how different they are from the embedded ones though, to be honest. But I've never noticed a discrepancy between the EVF and PL5.)
since i have one foot in DSLR land and one foot in mirrorless (hence my use of the ftz adapter), i must set it to off so the cameras treat the lens the same (no distortion autocorrections) and move away from Adobe software. is this the correct understanding?
I don't think you get any corrections embedded when you use an F mount lens on a Z camera. The software may still have some if it knows which lens was used and has a profile for it. Of course the Z lenses won't work on an F body, at all. So it's strictly about Z lenses on Z bodies.
DxO PhotoLab 5 lets me turn off corrections and I think it has its own lens profiles as well. (Not sure how different they are from the embedded ones though, to be honest. But I've never noticed a discrepancy between the EVF and PL5.)
Dec 26, 2022 at 05:52 PM
p.3 #11Deep dive into Z lens corrections (including impact on acuity)
Jan Brittenson wrote:
I don't think you get any corrections embedded when you use an F mount lens on a Z camera. The software may still have some if it knows which lens was used and has a profile for it. Of course the Z lenses won't work on an F body, at all. So it's strictly about Z lenses on Z bodies.
DxO PhotoLab 5 lets me turn off corrections and I think it has its own lens profiles as well. (Not sure how different they are from the embedded ones though, to be honest. But I've never noticed a discrepancy between...Show more →
Applies to F mount lenses as well, even non Nikon lenses! just tried my Bower 35/1.4 F-mount on the ftz adapter. I assume it applies the 35/1.4 Nikon profile on it. This is obviously a no go!
I don't think you get any corrections embedded when you use an F mount lens on a Z camera. The software may still have some if it knows which lens was used and has a profile for it. Of course the Z lenses won't work on an F body, at all. So it's strictly about Z lenses on Z bodies.
DxO PhotoLab 5 lets me turn off corrections and I think it has its own lens profiles as well. (Not sure how different they are from the embedded ones though, to be honest. But I've never noticed a discrepancy between...Show more →
Applies to F mount lenses as well, even non Nikon lenses! just tried my Bower 35/1.4 F-mount on the ftz adapter. I assume it applies the 35/1.4 Nikon profile on it. This is obviously a no go!
Dec 26, 2022 at 09:59 PM
p.3 #12Deep dive into Z lens corrections (including impact on acuity)
MRomine wrote:
Interesting read, but I really don’t see the point, corrected or uncorrected optically or via software as long as the image that I capture in the RAW file is what I see or thought I was capturing at the time I tripped the shutter?
A lot of times people need to do correction at post anyway, to tilt/level the edges, etc. Doing correction in one shot where interpolation/rounding only happens once, is superior to the current Z limitation where it happens one round in camera, then another round based on already rounded values in post.
Besides a lot of times people dont want in camera correction if there are no straight edges to begin with, and prefer resolution instead correcting distortion that may not matter.
MRomine wrote:
The Z lenses that I own produce a superior image to any of the Nikon lenses that I have owned or rented over the decades of shooting Nikon lenses. I am impressed and very happy with the results and don’t care if the lens corrections are made optically or via software.
Well dxo didnt rate 14-30 that highly. I think that has a lot to do with the resolution loss after correction. Also calling a lens 14 if it couldn't reach 14 after non optional correction is really misleading.
Interesting read, but I really don’t see the point, corrected or uncorrected optically or via software as long as the image that I capture in the RAW file is what I see or thought I was capturing at the time I tripped the shutter?
A lot of times people need to do correction at post anyway, to tilt/level the edges, etc. Doing correction in one shot where interpolation/rounding only happens once, is superior to the current Z limitation where it happens one round in camera, then another round based on already rounded values in post.
Besides a lot of times people dont want in camera correction if there are no straight edges to begin with, and prefer resolution instead correcting distortion that may not matter.
MRomine wrote:
The Z lenses that I own produce a superior image to any of the Nikon lenses that I have owned or rented over the decades of shooting Nikon lenses. I am impressed and very happy with the results and don’t care if the lens corrections are made optically or via software.
Well dxo didnt rate 14-30 that highly. I think that has a lot to do with the resolution loss after correction. Also calling a lens 14 if it couldn't reach 14 after non optional correction is really misleading.
Dec 29, 2022 at 11:34 AM
p.3 #13Deep dive into Z lens corrections (including impact on acuity)
Not sure if I'm the only one seeing it, but Z9 raw files do allow lens correction profiles to be turned off in Lightroom (LrC 12.1 on Mac). The lens correction dialog does not say the built-in profile has been applied, and you could select a different lens if you wanted to. Unchecking the apply profile option does cause the distortion correct to change, so it seems legitimate. I have not yet tried to determine if in-camera correction settings have any effect on defaults or what Lightroom does behind the scenes...
Z6 files still say that the built-in profile has been applied, and there is no way to turn it off (LrC 12.1). Same as it has always been.
I have no way to tell if the difference is due to the Z9 raw file format itself or the way Adobe has implemented Z9 support into Lightroom, but something has certainly changed.
Z6 files still say that the built-in profile has been applied, and there is no way to turn it off (LrC 12.1). Same as it has always been.
I have no way to tell if the difference is due to the Z9 raw file format itself or the way Adobe has implemented Z9 support into Lightroom, but something has certainly changed.
Dec 29, 2022 at 06:14 PM