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Archive 2018 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

Thern
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p.2 #1 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

JohnK007 wrote:
Try comparing apples to apples.

If you're talking about the 1Dx, the D5 beats it in every way, shape, and form for low light.

And its AF acquisition blows it out of the water too.

If you want to focus on the D500, please, don't even bother trying to put up the laughable toy of the 7D II by comparison ... really, just don't

If you want to talk about the D850, are you trying to compare the 5DMK IV to this too? lol

I answered to the OP, may be hard but try to read and understand his questions.
He owns the better equipment allready for his needs.
A D500/D850 will be outperformed especially with a slower zoom or 500PF F/5.6 by his current Canon gear.

Oct 31, 2018 at 04:03 PM

JohnK007
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p.2 #2 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

Thern wrote:
I answered to the OP, may be hard but try to read and understand his question.
He owns the better equipment allready for his needs.
A D500/D850 will be outperformed especially with a slower zoom or 500PF F/5.6 by his current Canon gear.

Curious to learn how you think I am bound or constrained in any way by what "you" did

Oct 31, 2018 at 04:29 PM

Lance B
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p.2 #3 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

I had both the D850 and D500 but I sold off the D500 when I got my Z7. Both the D500 and D850 are superb birding cameras, but the D850 is more versatile in that you have a full 45Mp to work with when you don't need to crop or need to crop a little. The D500 may have a very slight microscopic edge in AF ability, but it is not worth the worry, IMO. I use the D850 with the battery grip and EN-EL18b battery to get the full 9fps.

Oct 31, 2018 at 04:33 PM

Thern
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p.2 #4 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

Again read the OPs questions.
He shoots a 1DX with a 500 F/4 now. NO WAY a friggin D500 with a F/5.6 lens can beat that combo regarding lowlightperformance.

Oct 31, 2018 at 04:36 PM

JohnK007
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p.2 #5 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

Thern wrote:
Again read the OPs questions.
He shoots a 1DX with a 500 F/4 now. NO WAY a friggin D500 with a F/5.6 lens can beat that combo regarding lowlightperformance.

Again, read how I describe it as a dumb question.

Again, realize what you do is irrelevant to what I do.

"No friggin way does an EOS 7D + 100-400 f/4.5-5.6 beat a D5 + 500 f/4 FL ED," either

Oct 31, 2018 at 04:58 PM

elkhornsun
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p.2 #6 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

I prefer using the full viewfinder of the D500 as compared to the D850 in DX mode for birds in flight. On the other hand I can have a much wider view angle with the D850 in FX mode and then if I need a tighter angle I can change it to DX mode - no such capability with the D500.

I recently received the Nikon 500mm PF lens and was doing some preliminary autofocus fine tuning with it and both a D850 and a D500. I was surprised to see how much better the IQ was with the same lens at the same distance from the D850. It was noticeably sharper and had better contrast.

I was naively comparing D850 DX at 19MP versus D500 at 20.9MP and ignoring completely the new sensor design for the D850 along with its new signal processing firmware. I need to do more testing but it is not likely to change the results from my initial testing of the PF lens with the two cameras.

The difference was so stark that I am thinking of selling the D500 and buying a second D850 or a D5 or D6.

Oct 31, 2018 at 05:18 PM

morris
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p.2 #7 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

If you are not good at tracking, you will get more photos with the bird in frame with the 850.

Morris

Oct 31, 2018 at 05:32 PM

Two23
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p.2 #8 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

There is about a $2,000 difference between the two cameras. My thinking is you might get more value by putting that difference into a cracking good lens.

Kent in SD

Oct 31, 2018 at 05:56 PM

johnvanr
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p.2 #9 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

JohnK007 wrote:
Curious to learn how you think I am bound or constrained in any way by what "you" did

It may be hard, but try to understand I pointed out it's a dumb question, overall, and suggested the OP compare apples to apples.

Would you think it intelligent if someone compared the low light performance of a D5 + 500 f/4 FL ED ... to a Canon 7D + 100-400 Mk I?

If the OP at least compared the D5 + 500 PF to the 1Dx + 500 f/4, that would to the ballpark.

I�m asking a question based on my current situation and potential future plans. It�s a practical question, not a theoretical one. I know the 1DX II or the D5 would be better, but I don�t plan on buying either, not with DSLRs slowing going the way of the do-do bird. Likewise, I got my Canon 500/4 for a good price and I know I�m not going to spend the money on a Nikon equivalent.

I�m curious about Nikon, I�m impressed mostly with the D500 and I�m just wondering if the D850 would be better than the D500. I�m also very aware that I already have a pretty nice Canon setup.

I should also say that while I�m pretty sure I�ll buy into a high-MP full-frame camera at some point, that will be a mirrorless one and so I�m not interested in a D850 for anything but bird photography, since I wouldn�t buy any Nikon DSLR lenses. The ones I have for Canon I hardly ever use, other than my 500mm and the 100-400mm. I use Olympus for much of my shooting.

Oct 31, 2018 at 06:21 PM

johnvanr
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p.2 #10 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

Thern wrote:
Again read the OPs questions.
He shoots a 1DX with a 500 F/4 now. NO WAY a friggin D500 with a F/5.6 lens can beat that combo regarding lowlightperformance.

That�s correct. And I was wondering how close the D850 could come, compared to the D500.

Oct 31, 2018 at 06:23 PM

johnvanr
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p.2 #11 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

JohnK007 wrote:

Again, read how I describe it as a dumb question.

Again, realize what you do is irrelevant to what I do.

"No friggin way does an EOS 7D + 100-400 f/4.5-5.6 beat a D5 + 500 f/4 FL ED," either

What does that clarify?

Rather than giving a dense direct answer, with no explanation ... as you did ... try comprehending the fact that I showed him the basic error of the question in the first place: comparing setups in two different classes.

It's the difference between "giving a man a fish" ... and teaching him how to fish.

I don�t think you understood my question. I�m posting on the Nikon forum to ask about two different Nikon cameras.

You seem to underestimate my intellect.

Oct 31, 2018 at 06:26 PM

johnvanr
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p.2 #12 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

morris wrote:
If you are not good at tracking, you will get more photos with the bird in frame with the 850.

Morris

How�s that, since the focus points cover much of the D500 frame? It�s one thing I like about the D500, that and the ability to set different controls for quickly switching AF coverage.

Oct 31, 2018 at 06:29 PM

JohnK007
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p.2 #13 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

johnvanr wrote:
So, I usually use my Canon 1DX with a 500mm f/4 for bird photography. I had and sold a 7DII because it got bad fast in low light and AF was inconsistent. I often use the 1.4x converter because I need the extra reach.

I don't blame you for getting rid of the Canon 7D Mk II.

johnvanr wrote:
I decided to give Nikon a shot and bought a used D500 and 200-500mm lens. I�m impressed generally by that combo, esp. for the price. But like the Canon crop camera, I find the moment ISOs go up, I hate the noise esp. in BIF images. This severely limits the circumstances under which I�d be comfortable using the D500.

It's not clear what are you trying to compare this Nikon combo to?

The 7D II you got rid of or the 1Dx you still have?

Either way, the 200-500 has lousy AF compared to PF and FL ED glass ... and it's not as quick for BIF.

If you're trying to compare a Nikon combo with the 1Dx + 500L, then be realistic and get the D5 + FL ED.

If you're trying to match a mid-level lens with a mid-level body to enjoy the best APS-C experience, the D500 + 300 PF (or 500 PF) would be the way to go.

johnvanr wrote:
So, I�m thinking of giving the D850 a try, but I want to hear from Nikon shooters first how these cameras compare. Does the resolution make up for the lesser reach? Do high ISOs match images from top of the line cameras, like the 1DX or 5D? Is 7fps too slow and do you need the grip etc.?

Again, you need to be realistic.

There's plenty of data out there proving the D850 can in no way compare to either the 1Dx or D5, in low light, so you can't be serious.

The D850 will, however, blow both of them out of the water at base ISO or in good light.

If low light performance is your hotkey, I'm curious how can you afford a $6000 Canon camera and a $10,000 and lens and ask questions like this?

Obviously, you'd have to purchase the Nikon equivalents, not go outside the class you're aiming for.

johnvanr wrote:
Also, since I don�t see myself buying a Nikon $10,000 lens, is the high ISO on the D850 good enough to make up for the stop of light I would lose if I were to get the 500mm PF f/5.6 lens?

No, but the class-leading Nikon D5 + 500 PF might be an acceptable compromise.

johnvanr wrote:
Basically, I�m looking for the best AF and the cleanest images (but forget about Sony; I don�t like using their bodies), also allowing for serious cropping.

If you were honestly looking for "the best" AF + clean images in low light, then you would choose the D5 + 500 FL ED.

What it sounds like is you're looking to find a mid-level combo, or a landscape camera, that you're hoping can perform at the top of the fast AF, low-light class, too. There's no such thing.

johnvanr wrote:
Or should I just stick with Canon?

Or you could try being realistic?

Oct 31, 2018 at 06:33 PM

johnvanr
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p.2 #14 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

JohnK007 wrote:
I don't blame you for getting rid of the Canon 7D Mk II.

It's not clear what are you trying to compare this Nikon combo to?

The 7D II you got rid of or the 1Dx you still have?

Either way, the 200-500 has lousy AF compared to PF and FL ED glass ... and it's not as quick for BIF.

If you're trying to compare a Nikon combo with the 1Dx + 500L, then be realistic and get the D5 + FL ED.

If you're trying to match a mid-level lens with a mid-level body to enjoy the best APS-C experience, the D500 +...Show more →

First of all, I know my Canon kit is great. But I hear all the time how the Nikons are better at AF tracking. Now, if the D850 combines excellent tracking with tons of MPs (unlike the low resolution of the 1DX or D5) and good low-light performance that�ll be a real difference. I get the sense from these answers that it doesn�t. So, the question then becomes whether I keep my D500 and 200-500 or not.

I�m generally looking for a reasonably priced combo that delivers excellent images and doesn�t drive me nuts because it can�t acquire focus or performs lousy in low light. Hence, I ditched the 7DII, tried and didn�t buy the Tamron and Sigma 150-600mm lenses and don�t think my Olympus gear is there yet. I know the Sony A9 could probably deliver the AF, but the lenses aren�t there plus I don�t like using Sony.

I hope to use my D500 and 1DX side by side at Ted�s pond soon and see how focus acquisition compares.

Oct 31, 2018 at 06:49 PM

Charles Loy
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p.2 #15 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

johnvanr, I used the D850 and D500 (and D5) last winter on birds and found the D500, for me, to best the 850. 500 is snappy to acquire focus, locked solid and ripped off frames that were in focus as I tracked. I could not get this consistently with the D850. I use a D5 too, the 500 is a perfect mate to the D5. Thanks for inquiring.
Some like to pick apart what others say, you and I need to expect that if we post here, it always happens.

Oct 31, 2018 at 06:51 PM

JohnK007
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p.2 #16 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

johnvanr wrote:
First of all, I know my Canon kit is great. But I hear all the time how the Nikons are better at AF tracking. Now, if the D850 combines excellent tracking with tons of MPs (unlike the low resolution of the 1DX or D5) and good low-light performance that�ll be a real difference. I get the sense from these answers that it doesn�t. So, the question then becomes whether I keep my D500 and 200-500 or not.

I�m generally looking for a reasonably priced combo that delivers excellent images and doesn�t drive me nuts because it can�t acquire focus or performs...Show more →

I own the D500 and the D850 too.

The D500 + 300 (or 500) PF will suit you better than the 200-500 zoom.
I'd say 8/10 people who have both leave the zoom at home (or sell it) and prefer the dexterity, the AF, and the image quality of the PFs, over the zoom. The PFs have hands-down better AF.

If you can take your time, and fill the frame, the D850 can't be beat though

Oct 31, 2018 at 06:57 PM

johnvanr
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p.2 #17 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

Oct 31, 2018 at 07:06 PM

JohnK007
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p.2 #18 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

johnvanr wrote:
Re-reading your post: I bought my 1DX when the price on eBay was down to $4000 and I got my 500/4 when the price in Canada was $2,000 lower than the price in the USA. That kit was way cheaper than $6000 plus $10,000. In this time of declining DSLR sales, I'm wary of buying into expensive DSLRs or DSLR lenses. That market will decline, even for used gear.

Very true.

One of the reasons I sold all my AF glass awhile ago, and bought only Zeiss CV glass for the D850. The Zeiss Distagon glass went out of cycle, so, brand new, were selling for $1,000 - $1,500 off the standard price ... and they're still worth the same now, used, a year later.

That may change, given the new Z-mount, but maybe not, as the FTZ has "upgraded" them to VR lenses, breathing new life into them.

DSLR-wise, the D850 is good enough that I will be happy with it for a long, long time. Not so sure about the D500.
I would definitely only buy a used D5 ... unless I planned to keep it forever.

Super-expensive super-telephotos? Not the best time to buy, I agree.

But, then again, there appears to be no real performance hit (with E glass, anyway) using the FTZ adapters.

The PF glass, by all accounts, works excellent on the Zs.

Oct 31, 2018 at 07:24 PM

morris
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p.2 #19 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

johnvanr wrote:
How�s that, since the focus points cover much of the D500 frame? It�s one thing I like about the D500, that and the ability to set different controls for quickly switching AF coverage.

The wider FOV creates more space around the bird so if you get off center there is more room to error. If that's not clear, if you take your BIF at 24mm your odds of getting the bird in frame is much greater than at 500mm.

Morris

Oct 31, 2018 at 07:41 PM

arbitrage
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p.2 #20 · D500 vs D850 for bird photography

Here is my opinion....the D850 used as a "reach" camera is worse than a D500 for noise at the pixel level so absolutely no point if you can't make some use out of the full frame.

However, I have found some unique advantages to using my D850 over the D500 that many don't talk about:
1) Even when reach limited and not using any more than the DX frame but especially when using close to the DX frame AND using an f/8 lens/TC combo the D850 can use the best centre focus point and still have a proper composition. With the D500 you'd have to start trying to use some outer point which isn't officially supported (although unlike Canon can be selected) to try and get the point on the eye and a good composition. This often fails in AF on the D500 but on the D850 using the centre point you nail the focus and get the composition with all the extra FX sensor space...in the end the pixels on subject are the same but the focusing is better.

2) I also like that really with a D850 say with a 500mm lens you have a 500-750mm lens (from a certain point of view)....sometimes when the stars align birds get close enough that you can use the FX sensor and with a D500 and a prime lens you are out of luck (have to go just for a head portrait or something) but with the D850 you have that extra focal length to use when things get close (ie the true 500mm FOV) and the equivalent 750mm FOV you'd get on the D500 for when "reach" is needed.

3) Seeing more of a bird in the frame edges earlier to get on the bird or not lose the bird as you try to get back on the bird...with a D500 you can lose the bird earlier off the DX frame edge, with the D850 you have the full FX FOV to react and get the AF array back on the bird.

But otherwise the D500 for reach limited shooting where you are always doing crops of the DX frame is probably the best choice as it has better buffer, 10FPS without spending a bunch more on the battery grip and the slightly better per pixel DR/ISO.

HOWEVER, if you want 1DX like images you need to skip the D850 and get the D5 for high-ISO shooting....I've always preferred the 18-24MP range of FF cameras for IQ. My 1DX, 1DX2 and A9 are my favourite sensors and I think they have a little magic to them as the ISO creeps up even compared to the highly regarded (but pixel dense) D850 sensor. The D5 is an even better high-ISO sensor than my three favourites....

johnvanr wrote:
I hope to use my D500 and 1DX side by side at Ted�s pond soon and see how focus acquisition compares.

For eagles I don't think you will notice much difference, they will both nail lots and lots of shots. I find the Nikon AF benefits over the 1DX and 1DX2 is more in the very fringe cases of small, fast, erratic BIF where one can make use of the AutoAF that actually works on the Nikon compared to the non-useable 61-pt (All Point) on the Canon.

Basically as the birds get smaller and faster the Nikon (and even more so the Sony) AF systems start to pull ahead of the Canon system. But the 1 series (IMO) are pretty damn good and the subjects have to get really challenging for the Nikon and Sony systems to make a difference over the 1DX(2). The Nikon (and Sony) systems show their benefits much earlier (ie on easier subjects) over the other Canon 5 and 7 series.

Oct 31, 2018 at 08:32 PM

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