Regarding "blackout," I wonder if this is at least partially a matter of us already being used to the blackout that occurs with DSLRs on each exposure (thus not really noticing it any more) versus the fact that the mirrorless "blackout" has a different characteristic that catches out attention.
In other words, both systems lose the subject for a fraction of a second during/after the exposure, but we are familiar with the effect in one case and not so familiar in the other. (I have shot both mirrorless and DSLR for over a half-dozen years and I don't really pay attention to it in either case, nor am I conscious of a difference at this point.)
Todd Baugh wrote:
I agree, I think this is the elephant in the room that people aren't talking about with mirrorless cameras. The blackout then stutter issue is huge for me as it's hard to track and focus on a moving subject....even if it's something simple like a bride walking down the aisle.
Same issue I have with the A73, it's a little better on the A7R3 as the EVF has a faster refresh (60fps versus 120fps). But honestly I would rather have the mirror slap blackout.
-- I tried shooting lock on AF instead of single shot...but then you have to trust the camera to focus on the right spot.
-- I rented a Fuji XT-3 to try and it's much more responsive in this aspect. It's more like the mirror blackout from a DSLR.
-- the no blackout of the A9 is great but I use a ton of flash...so that doesn't help.
Exactly. I tried every MILC I could get my hands on for years and owned a few just to use as travel/walk-around cameras where I often ended up using the camera like a P&S with the rear LCD and not the EVF.
It wasn't till I tried the A9 that I decided it was good enough to use as one of my main bird/wildlife cameras (and I don't use flash so I didn't have to consider that factor). I tried the A7RIII at the same time and didn't find it good enough for my intended use. I found Lock-on AF to be the worst mode on the Sony so far...just not reliable to do what you want...just using the full on Wide mode is better for my type of subjects as they are usually the nearest thing and moving and the A9 seems to like to grab that type of subject.
I was quite excited about both the Z and R releases up till they were released and immediately tried to dig deep into the specs to see what the EVF was doing at the available frame rates (and single vs continuous AF modes). I quickly realized that the cameras were not up to what I was hoping for in this regard and this stopped me in my tracks from ordering one or the other (I still have lenses I can use on either brand if one of them was satisfactory).
I realize my use case is more on the fringe and that both the R and Z are decent cameras for the majority of photography....just not what I want to do with them and it is basically 100% to do with the EVF/FPS/AF-C relationship on them...including the A7 Sonys.
Oddly enough, the first time I tried to shoot a moving subject with the A7III was kids sliding down a slip and slide. For one shot and done, the AF would find the eye and allow me to get shots that a DSLR (for me 5D3) probably wouldn't have. Then I tried to pan and shoot from the side of the slide and was like....WTF! Take picture...blackout...stutter...kid way further down the slide than I anticipated...WTF again.
Tried turning down resolution on the EVF to standard, started using UHS-II cards, nothing really helped. I also think the blackout on the ML is more pronounced than the mirror flip on a DSLR.
So I think I'm going to keep the DSLR for the fast gotta have focus times and maybe sell the A7III and get the A7R3..it's a little better and will be put on portrait duty :-) This sucks because the Sony sensors are miles ahead of Canon. Another reason it's a bummer :-(
Couple of thoughts:
-- wondering when the new Sony EVF with 5+ million dots and 240fps is gonna land in a camera?
-- still wondering why the Fuji Xt-3 doesn't suffer from this...it's much for like a DSLR in terms of blackout and no stutter.
I'm a Canon 5DMKIII shooter and I also have an Fujifilm X-T3. I have not noticed any blackout or lag on the X-T3. In that regard, the X-T3 is equivalent to an SLR. I was thinking of returning the X-T3 as the files are not as pleasing for portraits like Canon and getting the EOS R. Right now I have just the X-T3 and Fujinon 35/f2 WR. However, this issue of the blackout on the EOS R is of concern.
rsg_1 wrote:
I'm a Canon 5DMKIII shooter and I also have an Fujifilm X-T3. I have not noticed any blackout or lag on the X-T3. In that regard, the X-T3 is equivalent to an SLR. I was thinking of returning the X-T3 as the files are not as pleasing for portraits like Canon and getting the EOS R. Right now I have just the X-T3 and Fujinon 35/f2 WR. However, this issue of the blackout on the EOS R is of concern.
Yes, I rented an XT-3, but the ISO3200 isn't up to snuff....but I did like the responsive EVF. Surely much for like a DSLR than the A73 is in terms of EVF response and blackout.
Yes, you are correct. Coming from the 5DMKIII, the X-T3 at ISO 3200 seemed to be acceptable, but after ISO 6400, I wanted my 5DMKIII back. Right now, I'm at a cross road as I don't have whole lot invested in the X-T3. I can return my X-T3 by the first week of November and sell the Fujinon XF 35mm f/2 WR and get the EOS R with R-EF adapter. The X-T3 AF response and 0.75x EVF seems to be better than recent 5D series bodies. I would even say the AF may be better than some recent older 1D series bodies as well. I would like the EOS R, but the blackout issue bothers me.
My other choice is to get the Fujinon XF 16-55 f/2.8 WR, sell the 35 f/2 and keep a light kit. I'm rather undecided.
Yes, you are correct. Coming from the 5DMKIII, the X-T3 at ISO 3200 seemed to be acceptable, but after ISO 6400, I wanted my 5DMKIII back. Right now, I'm at a cross road as I don't have whole lot invested in the X-T3. I can return my X-T3 by the first week of November and sell the Fujinon XF 35mm f/2 WR and get the EOS R with R-EF adapter. The X-T3 AF response and 0.75x EVF seems to be better than recent 5D series bodies. I would even say the AF may be better than some recent older 1D series bodies as well. I would like the EOS R, but the blackout issue bothers me.
My other choice is to get the Fujinon XF 16-55 f/2.8 WR, sell the 35 f/2 and keep a light kit. I'm rather undecided....Show more →
Yeah, it's like each camera has something that others don't....just can't seem to find the perfect camera. If you absolutely nail exposure on the XT3 at 3200 it looks pretty friggin good....just a tad behind the 5D3 in regards to detail and noise. But the EVF on the XT3 is miles ahead of the A73 and A7R3 in regards to responsiveness, actually it's like I would have thought the Sony would have been like :-(
Since I'm 100% a wedding photographer guy, I would have to regulate the Fuji to "good light" work or the "getting ready" process...and for that I think it's an awesome camera. I can see where it would be the ultimate travel or casual camera. But since I already have some Sony stuff, I use the Sony for that.
Right now, I'm hanging onto Canon for fast action moments and time where critical focus is needed and the Sony for portraits.
rsg_1 wrote:
If only we could take the X-T3 body and controls, put the Sony FF sensor in it, and then give it the Canon RF mount, we would have a winner.
My preference would be the Z7 body....all the internals (AF, sensor, FPS etc) of the Sony A9 and the RF mount but I'd also be okay with the Z7 body, Sony internals and the Z-mount. In fact I'd even be happy with Z7 body, Sony internals and EF or F mount....
arbitrage wrote:
My preference would be the Z7 body....all the internals (AF, sensor, FPS etc) of the Sony A9 and the RF mount but I'd also be okay with the Z7 body, Sony internals and the Z-mount. In fact I'd even be happy with Z7 body, Sony internals and EF or F mount....
The Sony body is quite nice and made in Japan. The Fujifilm X-T3 controls are very photographer friendly and is an absolute joy to use without going through so many menus.
Wait, what? Who is this "us" -- you didn't ask me for my opinion. If you had, I wouldn't have agreed with what you think applies to us all.
You're obsessed with perfection. Not me. I gave that up a long while ago.
You the one who obsesses over corner perfection and then takes pictures of his cat, not me.
You're the hypocrite you describe. Not me.
chez wrote:
Half the problem with these big heavy pig lenses is our doing as we pixel peep into the deep corners of a 50mpix image to ensure every last one of those pixels are pin sharp...then go out and take photos of our cat.
Give me 95% image quality of these pigs at 50% of their weight and I'm a happy camper because I know for a fact you will never notice any differences in printed photographs made from either lens.
Our constant obsession with perfection coupled with the power of reviews on the net would butcher and new lens which does not approach perfection....Show more →
Todd Baugh wrote:
I agree, I think this is the elephant in the room that people aren't talking about with mirrorless cameras. The blackout then stutter issue is huge for me as it's hard to track and focus on a moving subject....even if it's something simple like a bride walking down the aisle.
Same issue I have with the A73, it's a little better on the A7R3 as the EVF has a faster refresh (60fps versus 120fps). But honestly I would rather have the mirror slap blackout.
-- I tried shooting lock on AF instead of single shot...but then you have to trust the camera to focus on the right spot.
-- I rented a Fuji XT-3 to try and it's much more responsive in this aspect. It's more like the mirror blackout from a DSLR.
-- the no blackout of the A9 is great but I use a ton of flash...so that doesn't help.
Todd ...Show more →
So on the Sony A7r3 (which I use to shoot birds in flight on occasion) the stutter effect only happens when the Drive speed is set to Hi+. When Set to Hi (8fps max) then you see a blackout, but no stutter effect (or at least extremely minimal) that you keep mentioning.
There is a good comparison between the EOS-R and Sony A7r3 here:
I just put mine in single shot mode with the preview turned off and fired 10 shots in succession and didn't notice any lag. Then again, I'm not "looking" for things to dislike about the camera, so perhaps it's just not an issue for normal shooters.
Glad to see this thread still going. So I rented an A9 and it does not have this "EVF stutter" like the At3 and the A7R3. I have to mention that this stutter with the two cameras is only when in AF-C, it does not happen in single shot. This is unfortunate as the AF-C is lightning fast at acquiring focus and single shot is ho-hum :-(
Todd Baugh wrote:
Glad to see this thread still going. So I rented an A9 and it does not have this "EVF stutter" like the At3 and the A7R3. I have to mention that this stutter with the two cameras is only when in AF-C, it does not happen in single shot. This is unfortunate as the AF-C is lightning fast at acquiring focus and single shot is ho-hum :-(
I'm glad that the $4500 A9 has no EVF lag like the $2300 EOS R.
rsg_1 wrote:
I'm a Canon 5DMKIII shooter and I also have an Fujifilm X-T3. I have not noticed any blackout or lag on the X-T3. In that regard, the X-T3 is equivalent to an SLR. I was thinking of returning the X-T3 as the files are not as pleasing for portraits like Canon and getting the EOS R. Right now I have just the X-T3 and Fujinon 35/f2 WR. However, this issue of the blackout on the EOS R is of concern.
I don't have any specific experience to add relative to the "blackout" question, just a perspective to consider.
I wonder if part of the issue is about what is familiar and what is new. Most of us have long used DLRS systems with their "flapping" mirrors that momentarily interrupt the image, particularly when we photograph in burst mode. At this point, we have become so used to this that we barely notice it — and we certainly don't regard it as a glitch — when we are in the field.
The manner of the interruptions on mirrorless systems is new to us. For example, a fraction-of-a-second "freezing" of the EVF image is something we've never seen in our viewfinders before — so it grabs our attention. But with you, I wonder if these interruptions, like those of the flapping mirror, may eventually disappear from our awareness, too?
gregfountain wrote:
I'm glad that the $4500 A9 has no EVF lag like the $2300 EOS R.
I wasn't dumping on the EOS R, the A73 and the A7R3 both have the same issue. For me, this stutter step of the EVF in AF-C really sucks, I'm hoping this isn't a unfortunate side effect of using an EVF in most cameras. I originally thought this was an issue with just the A73 and the refresh rate of it's EVF being lower...but it's not the case.
I also do not like that when light is very, very low and turning off the live view makes the image appear stuttering an laggy as well.....as this happens with the A9, A73, and the A7R3.
Todd Baugh wrote:
I wasn't dumping on the EOS R, the A73 and the A7R3 both have the same issue. For me, this stutter step of the EVF in AF-C really sucks, I'm hoping this isn't a unfortunate side effect of using an EVF in most cameras. I originally thought this was an issue with just the A73 and the refresh rate of it's EVF being lower...but it's not the case.
I also do not like that when light is very, very low and turning off the live view makes the image appear stuttering an laggy as well.....as this happens with the A9, A73, and the A7R3.
My comment was more directed at those who seem to have unreasonable expectations, complain about a camera they haven't used, and seem more concerned with specs than actually posting images. I completely get the "R" isn't for everyone. Those who need high speed functionality will typically spend a lot more money for the tools they need, like the Canon 1D series or for the Sony folks, the A9. Beyond that, and the OP's point, I don't take pictures of clock faces, so what ever lag there is in single shot mode is imperceptible to me.
gregfountain wrote:
Beyond that, and the OP's point, I don't take pictures of clock faces, so what ever lag there is in single shot mode is imperceptible to me.
Wow. The clock video was just an example that easily shows the issue.
With other camera's (excluding the Sony A9) you get a short blackout at the exact moment of releasing the shutter. This is much less annoying than how the EOS R does it.
Now that we're a few months further I've seen quite a lot of people complaining about it.
Here's someone that showed it well (don't worry, it doesn't have a clock in it):
I think we are talking about two different things. In the your video of the clock face, the camera is clearly in single shot mode. In my own test, in single shot mode, I can click away without any perceptible lag, but I'm not shooting a clock.
In this video, the dude has the camera in continuous mode and it clearly shows a "time lapse" effect, which is absolutely true. I can only hope a firmware patch will fix this, or at least make it more usable.
I should also point out that with proper exposure settings, this "time lapse" effect is less noticeable. Slower shutter speeds will magnify the effect - which is the case for any camera.
Jochenb wrote:
Wow. The clock video was just an example that easily shows the issue.
With other camera's (excluding the Sony A9) you get a short blackout at the exact moment of releasing the shutter. This is much less annoying than how the EOS R does it.
Now that we're a few months further I've seen quite a lot of people complaining about it.
Here's someone that showed it well (don't worry, it doesn't have a clock in it):
