This topic is in the 2018 archive. You can read it and like its posts here. It is read only.
Archive 2018Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
p.6 #1Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
I have not seen a word about tif files. I haven't used a jpg in years.
Sep 30, 2018 at 10:00 AM
p.6 #2Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Bigger and heavier than the sony RX as well as more expensive. Processing an image on the camera rather than PC sounds like some form of torture. For me this is a hard pass.
Sep 30, 2018 at 10:03 AM
p.6 #3Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Valner wrote:
Bigger and heavier than the sony RX as well as more expensive. Processing an image on the camera rather than PC sounds like some form of torture. For me this is a hard pass.
You have a choice of processing on the camera or your workstation...nothing is taken away but rather added.
I quite often download my files from the camera to the phone to quickly process images and send to friends / family while traveling. Doing so from the camera would save me some time and steps.
Bigger and heavier than the sony RX as well as more expensive. Processing an image on the camera rather than PC sounds like some form of torture. For me this is a hard pass.
You have a choice of processing on the camera or your workstation...nothing is taken away but rather added.
I quite often download my files from the camera to the phone to quickly process images and send to friends / family while traveling. Doing so from the camera would save me some time and steps.
Sep 30, 2018 at 10:06 AM
p.6 #4Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
The attached image is primarily why I voted no.
There are many Leica’s and now Fuji MF in (or perhaps below) its price range, and I would be more inclined to go that route for an expensive prime workhorse.
There are many Leica’s and now Fuji MF in (or perhaps below) its price range, and I would be more inclined to go that route for an expensive prime workhorse.
Sep 30, 2018 at 11:40 AM
p.6 #5Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Right now the size and weight are the biggest deterrents for me.
Sep 30, 2018 at 12:58 PM
p.6 #6Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
With innovative products, you do better if you can make the proposed leap forward easier for buyers. It's terribly vain of designers to force their customers to change the way they work, just for their own indulgences. If the new wunder kamera resembled an existing well-respected product it would not look so alien.
The RX1 appealed to the M universe because it was well-crafted, expensive, it was small (very small) and very high quality with nice touches in the macro, familiar controls, and terrific lens giving great results. And it looked OK, rather sweet in its own way. It was 'familiar' to us.
Here, you have to get over a few hurdles.
This device is going to take some 'splaining, even to your subjects who might react badly, due to the faux black ops look. The camera will itself become the centre of attention. And it doesn't build on anything known to be useful, so it just looks lost in the world. It's an attempt at making an objet d'art (form, material, color), with a secondary identity as a camera, and a third role as being a computer (editor), with the fourth part as a new age comms device (transmitter). Hence it is a 'device' by definition.
It's going to need some camouflage (a huge half case?) which kind of defeats the purpose of it, which is:
Look at me! Zeiss wants you to buy this one because of what it says about you (connected luxury goods buyer with savoir-faire) but it's as subtle as a black Benz. It could have been done so much better.
The RX1 appealed to the M universe because it was well-crafted, expensive, it was small (very small) and very high quality with nice touches in the macro, familiar controls, and terrific lens giving great results. And it looked OK, rather sweet in its own way. It was 'familiar' to us.
Here, you have to get over a few hurdles.
This device is going to take some 'splaining, even to your subjects who might react badly, due to the faux black ops look. The camera will itself become the centre of attention. And it doesn't build on anything known to be useful, so it just looks lost in the world. It's an attempt at making an objet d'art (form, material, color), with a secondary identity as a camera, and a third role as being a computer (editor), with the fourth part as a new age comms device (transmitter). Hence it is a 'device' by definition.
It's going to need some camouflage (a huge half case?) which kind of defeats the purpose of it, which is:
Look at me! Zeiss wants you to buy this one because of what it says about you (connected luxury goods buyer with savoir-faire) but it's as subtle as a black Benz. It could have been done so much better.
Sep 30, 2018 at 04:33 PM
p.6 #7Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Any stabilizer? No eye-af? Silent shooting modes? Sigma flash protocol (Sigma makes nice flashes but what about third party?)
Sep 30, 2018 at 05:03 PM
p.6 #8Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
chez wrote:
Really?
Why, yes, really.
For example when Hasselblad made Sony clones.
Really?
Why, yes, really.
For example when Hasselblad made Sony clones.
Oct 01, 2018 at 07:27 AM
p.6 #9Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Sauseschritt wrote:
Why, yes, really.
For example when Hasselblad made Sony clones.
Like I said some concepts don't stick but pave the way for new products. Would you rather manufactures stay the course, not try new things...keep making tomorrow what they made 59 years ago because they are scared to try new things...to move technology forward?
This type of thinking is why the phone cameras swept in and took the low end market away from the camera companies and now are being threatened by more and more capable cameras and software within these phones. The new generation does not want a Fuji like camera with a bunch of dials...they want what they are used to...the phone cameras.
chez wrote
Really?For example when Hasselblad made Sony clones.
Like I said some concepts don't stick but pave the way for new products. Would you rather manufactures stay the course, not try new things...keep making tomorrow what they made 59 years ago because they are scared to try new things...to move technology forward?
This type of thinking is why the phone cameras swept in and took the low end market away from the camera companies and now are being threatened by more and more capable cameras and software within these phones. The new generation does not want a Fuji like camera with a bunch of dials...they want what they are used to...the phone cameras.
Oct 01, 2018 at 07:40 AM
p.6 #10Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Too big, kinda ugly, bad focal length for me. I am certainly not the target audience.
Seems very niche......
Seems very niche......
Oct 01, 2018 at 07:56 AM
p.6 #11Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
At first I thought they'd made a tiny 35/2 on this little thing... only to discover that it's not a little thing.
Oct 01, 2018 at 08:42 AM
p.6 #12Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
chez wrote:
The new generation does not want a Fuji like camera with a bunch of dials...they want what they are used to...the phone cameras.
Right, but that's why phone cameras are all they're going to buy. We're talking about people who will carry 4 USB batteries in their purse/backpack to have a phone 4mm thick instead of 7. They ain't buying a gigantic digital rangefinder just because Zeiss got rid of the buttons. This thing ain't for kids, this is for old farts who want to imagine they're "with it."
The new generation does not want a Fuji like camera with a bunch of dials...they want what they are used to...the phone cameras.
Right, but that's why phone cameras are all they're going to buy. We're talking about people who will carry 4 USB batteries in their purse/backpack to have a phone 4mm thick instead of 7. They ain't buying a gigantic digital rangefinder just because Zeiss got rid of the buttons. This thing ain't for kids, this is for old farts who want to imagine they're "with it."
Oct 01, 2018 at 09:24 AM
p.6 #13Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Lee Saxon wrote:
Right, but that's why phone cameras are all they're going to buy. We're talking about people who will carry 4 USB batteries in their purse/backpack to have a phone 4mm thick instead of 7. They ain't buying a gigantic digital rangefinder just because Zeiss got rid of the buttons. This thing ain't for kids, this is for old farts who want to imagine they're "with it."
It’s the concepts in this camera i’m Talking about...not necessarily this camera. I don’t believe the future of photography is to base camera designs on 50 year old ideas...but rather look into new concepts.
chez wrote
The new generation does not want a Fuji like camera with a bunch of dials...they want what they are used to...the phone cameras.It’s the concepts in this camera i’m Talking about...not necessarily this camera. I don’t believe the future of photography is to base camera designs on 50 year old ideas...but rather look into new concepts.
Oct 01, 2018 at 09:28 AM
p.6 #14Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Lee Saxon wrote:
This thing ain't for kids, this is for old farts who want to imagine they're "with it."
My 20-year-old daughter knows well how to edit in Lightroom (both desktop and mobile) and was excited when I told her this camera had Lightroom built-in.
However after I shared the ZX1 specs, especially size, weight and possible price, her interested dropped down to zero!
This thing ain't for kids, this is for old farts who want to imagine they're "with it."
My 20-year-old daughter knows well how to edit in Lightroom (both desktop and mobile) and was excited when I told her this camera had Lightroom built-in.
However after I shared the ZX1 specs, especially size, weight and possible price, her interested dropped down to zero!
Oct 01, 2018 at 09:35 AM
p.6 #15Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Lee Saxon wrote:
Right, but that's why phone cameras are all they're going to buy. We're talking about people who will carry 4 USB batteries in their purse/backpack to have a phone 4mm thick instead of 7. They ain't buying a gigantic digital rangefinder just because Zeiss got rid of the buttons. This thing ain't for kids, this is for old farts who want to imagine they're "with it."
chez wrote
The new generation does not want a Fuji like camera with a bunch of dials...they want what they are used to...the phone cameras. Oct 01, 2018 at 09:47 AM
p.6 #16Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
This thing is a really tough sell for me.
It's probably going to come out of the gate at a much higher MSRP than I would ever consider paying, it's rather large, and there are huge question marks with regard to ergonomics and general performance.
In order for me to be convinced to shell out some cheese for this thing, it will have to perform really well in the AF/UI department while also yielding amazing IQ. But even then, I don't know that I would be willing to cough up more than about 2500-3000 for this thing.
I am happy that Zeiss is willing to make a bold move to potentially steer the market a bit. But I don't think this is the device that will do the convincing of the general market.
Side note - the big question, at least for me, is "what other gear would I rather buy with 3-5k?"
It's probably going to come out of the gate at a much higher MSRP than I would ever consider paying, it's rather large, and there are huge question marks with regard to ergonomics and general performance.
In order for me to be convinced to shell out some cheese for this thing, it will have to perform really well in the AF/UI department while also yielding amazing IQ. But even then, I don't know that I would be willing to cough up more than about 2500-3000 for this thing.
I am happy that Zeiss is willing to make a bold move to potentially steer the market a bit. But I don't think this is the device that will do the convincing of the general market.
Side note - the big question, at least for me, is "what other gear would I rather buy with 3-5k?"
Oct 01, 2018 at 10:04 AM
p.6 #17Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Lee Saxon wrote:
Right, but that's why phone cameras are all they're going to buy. We're talking about people who will carry 4 USB batteries in their purse/backpack to have a phone 4mm thick instead of 7. They ain't buying a gigantic digital rangefinder just because Zeiss got rid of the buttons. This thing ain't for kids, this is for old farts who want to imagine they're "with it."
The people who care about thinness on their smartphones won't buy this or use this even if it had a medium format sensor and was the size of the RX100. I think this is largely targeted at three demos:
1. Social media influencers: Think up and coming photographers, videographers, and some celebrities (e.g. Kendall Jenner) who made something like the Contax T2 socially acceptable again. Style, image quality, and speed to post are important factors.
2. Well to do older millennials: This represents a largely Greenfield opportunity and as an old millennial, I get this. You want all the benefits of a smartphone (better user interface, open software architecture, and apps). Also, I don't think people in this category have any brand loyalty to Canon, Nikon, or Leica. Fuji is cool cause it looks retro (see #1 above) and I'd imagine most of the camera sales are for Panasonic or Sony (These are the brands we grew up with). Canon and Nikon are where you went for your first cheap travel camera. The Zeiss co-branding with Sony has made it much more recognizable and there's an opportunity for them to monetize here.
3. The Asia market. Again another Greenfield opportunity - especially China. Lots of new wealth and again zero loyalty to Canon or Nikon. There's also a strong interest in having the latest and best technology. I think Zeiss is a well respected brand there too and Leica has made tons of money by going after this market.
Biggest impediment to Zeiss succeeding is that it is quite a big camera for a 35mm prime. If this had an interchangeable lens on it, I think the size would be forgiven but not for technically a point and shoot. I think for me personally, the $3500 price point is the tipping point - above that, I'd probably skip out and below that I'd consider buying it and at least test it out. I expect there will be a lot of open box specials for this since it's certainly an acquired taste.
chez wrote
The new generation does not want a Fuji like camera with a bunch of dials...they want what they are used to...the phone cameras.The people who care about thinness on their smartphones won't buy this or use this even if it had a medium format sensor and was the size of the RX100. I think this is largely targeted at three demos:
1. Social media influencers: Think up and coming photographers, videographers, and some celebrities (e.g. Kendall Jenner) who made something like the Contax T2 socially acceptable again. Style, image quality, and speed to post are important factors.
2. Well to do older millennials: This represents a largely Greenfield opportunity and as an old millennial, I get this. You want all the benefits of a smartphone (better user interface, open software architecture, and apps). Also, I don't think people in this category have any brand loyalty to Canon, Nikon, or Leica. Fuji is cool cause it looks retro (see #1 above) and I'd imagine most of the camera sales are for Panasonic or Sony (These are the brands we grew up with). Canon and Nikon are where you went for your first cheap travel camera. The Zeiss co-branding with Sony has made it much more recognizable and there's an opportunity for them to monetize here.
3. The Asia market. Again another Greenfield opportunity - especially China. Lots of new wealth and again zero loyalty to Canon or Nikon. There's also a strong interest in having the latest and best technology. I think Zeiss is a well respected brand there too and Leica has made tons of money by going after this market.
Biggest impediment to Zeiss succeeding is that it is quite a big camera for a 35mm prime. If this had an interchangeable lens on it, I think the size would be forgiven but not for technically a point and shoot. I think for me personally, the $3500 price point is the tipping point - above that, I'd probably skip out and below that I'd consider buying it and at least test it out. I expect there will be a lot of open box specials for this since it's certainly an acquired taste.
Oct 01, 2018 at 10:13 AM
p.6 #18Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
chez wrote:
I don’t believe the future of photography is to base camera designs on 50 year old ideas...but rather look into new concepts.
That I agree with completely. And I don't think the Fuji or Nikon Df retro-hipsterism stuff is the way to go. And I think *internally* Zeiss has thrown out some good ideas (we'll see if the picture transfer aspect actually works, though - it's not like that concept doesn't already exist, it's just that it's never been done well).
But as far as the control interface, I don't think "hey, These Kids Today like phones, right? let's glue one to the back and cut assembly costs" really counts as 'new concepts.' If I'm going to have to tab through as many menus and screens to get to basic settings that have dedicated buttons on my D850 as I do to get to the friggin dialer on an iPhone that was available instantly on phones of 15 years ago ... I mean, look, it's great for Snapchat and memes and whatever, but even my buddies in their mid-20s who absolutely live on their phones still have decades-antiquated things like keyboards and mice and big dual monitors when they go in to work at their tech jobs. At this size and (probable) price, this is a professional tool that needs to be quick and flexible and not have 98% of its functions become unavailable if the sun gets too bright or a single drop of sweat forms on my swiping finger.
I don’t believe the future of photography is to base camera designs on 50 year old ideas...but rather look into new concepts.
That I agree with completely. And I don't think the Fuji or Nikon Df retro-hipsterism stuff is the way to go. And I think *internally* Zeiss has thrown out some good ideas (we'll see if the picture transfer aspect actually works, though - it's not like that concept doesn't already exist, it's just that it's never been done well).
But as far as the control interface, I don't think "hey, These Kids Today like phones, right? let's glue one to the back and cut assembly costs" really counts as 'new concepts.' If I'm going to have to tab through as many menus and screens to get to basic settings that have dedicated buttons on my D850 as I do to get to the friggin dialer on an iPhone that was available instantly on phones of 15 years ago ... I mean, look, it's great for Snapchat and memes and whatever, but even my buddies in their mid-20s who absolutely live on their phones still have decades-antiquated things like keyboards and mice and big dual monitors when they go in to work at their tech jobs. At this size and (probable) price, this is a professional tool that needs to be quick and flexible and not have 98% of its functions become unavailable if the sun gets too bright or a single drop of sweat forms on my swiping finger.
Oct 01, 2018 at 10:15 AM
p.6 #19Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
tzhang4284 wrote:
Right, but that's why phone cameras are all they're going to buy. We're talking about people who will carry 4 USB batteries in their purse/backpack to have a phone 4mm thick instead of 7. They ain't buying a gigantic digital rangefinder just because Zeiss got rid of the buttons. This thing ain't for kids, this is for old farts who want to imagine they're "with it."The people who care about thinness on their smartphones won't buy this or use this even if it had a medium format sensor and was the size of the RX100. I think this is largely targeted at three demos:
1. Social media influencers: Think up and coming photographers, videographers, and some celebrities (e.g. Kendall Jenner) who made something like the Contax T2 socially acceptable again. Style, image quality, and speed to post are important factors.
2. Well to do older millennials: This represents a largely Greenfield opportunity and as an old millennial, I get this. You want all the benefits of a...Show more →
Its funny that we talk about the size of this being too big when all the phones are growing in size. Look at the latest announcements from Apple...that phone is huge.
Lee Saxon wrote
chez wrote
The new generation does not want a Fuji like camera with a bunch of dials...they want what they are used to...the phone cameras.1. Social media influencers: Think up and coming photographers, videographers, and some celebrities (e.g. Kendall Jenner) who made something like the Contax T2 socially acceptable again. Style, image quality, and speed to post are important factors.
2. Well to do older millennials: This represents a largely Greenfield opportunity and as an old millennial, I get this. You want all the benefits of a...Show more →
Its funny that we talk about the size of this being too big when all the phones are growing in size. Look at the latest announcements from Apple...that phone is huge.
Oct 01, 2018 at 10:41 AM
p.6 #20Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
chez wrote:
Its funny that we talk about the size of this being too big when all the phones are growing in size. Look at the latest announcements from Apple...that phone is huge.
First of all, most people don't buy the ginormous sized phones.
Second, even the new iPhone Xs Max easily fits in my jean's pocket.
Its funny that we talk about the size of this being too big when all the phones are growing in size. Look at the latest announcements from Apple...that phone is huge.
First of all, most people don't buy the ginormous sized phones.
Second, even the new iPhone Xs Max easily fits in my jean's pocket.
Oct 01, 2018 at 10:52 AM