This topic is in the 2018 archive. You can read it and like its posts here. It is read only.
Archive 2018Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
p.28 #1Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
CZ reps are usually pretty tight-lipped at shows. They have always designed great lenses and still do, but they are currently MIA in a very fast-moving industry. No one even knows what 'planning and thinking' is going on.
They would talk frequently to their producer Cosina for all kinds of things to do with supply chains, prod runs, gear ups and industry info sharing, formal and informal. A deal about 'who looks after what' may have been done on the quiet.
Which would a good outcome, as it appears the 'Zeiss surcharge' is 30-40% over and above Cosina's average price levels. Just the facts, I certainly don't want to see them head out the back door either. Even the slow lane is better than no lane but right now they are pedestrians.
They would talk frequently to their producer Cosina for all kinds of things to do with supply chains, prod runs, gear ups and industry info sharing, formal and informal. A deal about 'who looks after what' may have been done on the quiet.
Which would a good outcome, as it appears the 'Zeiss surcharge' is 30-40% over and above Cosina's average price levels. Just the facts, I certainly don't want to see them head out the back door either. Even the slow lane is better than no lane but right now they are pedestrians.
Feb 11, 2020 at 03:41 PM
p.28 #2Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
In the meantime I am enjoying my Batis collection tremendously. Have a nice day.
Feb 12, 2020 at 02:14 AM
p.28 #3Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Why, yes.
Love my Zeiss Distagon 35mm f2 ZF.
Would really love to have a Zeiss APO Sonnar 135mm f2 ZF as well.
Dont care about this camera. I'd much rather have a good notebook that has a HUGE NUMBER OF ADVANTAGES over the crappy idea to put the image editor into a compact camera.
1. Can be used with any camera
2. Can be used with any number of cameras
3. Can have a much larger monitor
4. Can be upgraded independently
5. Can choose from a large number of software, and combine them freely as well
6. Has far better controls
7. Etc etc etc
So whats the point of this abomination ? Its just silly.
Well, whatever. Whoever thinks this is a good idea probably enjoys it a lot.
tsdevine wrote:
Zeiss seems to be getting squeezed from all sides. CV, Sony, Sigma....both the Batis and Loxia lines are under pressure.
Zeiss treats consumer optics merely as a fun sideline business. They leave most of the actual work to Cosina. Compared to their core business, profit margins for consumer optics are apparently quite meager.
Thus I doubt they are actually really bothered by any such development.
Love my Zeiss Distagon 35mm f2 ZF.
Would really love to have a Zeiss APO Sonnar 135mm f2 ZF as well.
Dont care about this camera. I'd much rather have a good notebook that has a HUGE NUMBER OF ADVANTAGES over the crappy idea to put the image editor into a compact camera.
1. Can be used with any camera
2. Can be used with any number of cameras
3. Can have a much larger monitor
4. Can be upgraded independently
5. Can choose from a large number of software, and combine them freely as well
6. Has far better controls
7. Etc etc etc
So whats the point of this abomination ? Its just silly.
Well, whatever. Whoever thinks this is a good idea probably enjoys it a lot.
tsdevine wrote:
Zeiss seems to be getting squeezed from all sides. CV, Sony, Sigma....both the Batis and Loxia lines are under pressure.
Zeiss treats consumer optics merely as a fun sideline business. They leave most of the actual work to Cosina. Compared to their core business, profit margins for consumer optics are apparently quite meager.
Thus I doubt they are actually really bothered by any such development.
Feb 12, 2020 at 04:04 AM
p.28 #4Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
nehemiahphoto wrote:
In a very simple sense, I think Zeiss was responding to the market’s lower sales, specifically their own, and misjudged.
Going bigger, including a subscription and in camera editing, and a hard drive was the exact wrong way to go.
Getting smaller/more portable like a phone, using some computational aspects like a phone, having great file transfer software without needing to do things on the camera like a phone would have been the ways to modernize it like 2018 (when it was announced)
Zeiss doesn’t seem to get people want mobility, flexibility, simplicity and connectivity. Not a brick tethered to a monthly...Show more →
Totally agree. As someone who can in fact afford something like a ZX1, it has no appeal to me due to the characteristics you mention above.
Unfortunately, anything software or UI related are not Zeiss's strong points along with highly integrated electronics. Just not their gig.
In a very simple sense, I think Zeiss was responding to the market’s lower sales, specifically their own, and misjudged.
Going bigger, including a subscription and in camera editing, and a hard drive was the exact wrong way to go.
Getting smaller/more portable like a phone, using some computational aspects like a phone, having great file transfer software without needing to do things on the camera like a phone would have been the ways to modernize it like 2018 (when it was announced)
Zeiss doesn’t seem to get people want mobility, flexibility, simplicity and connectivity. Not a brick tethered to a monthly...Show more →
Totally agree. As someone who can in fact afford something like a ZX1, it has no appeal to me due to the characteristics you mention above.
Unfortunately, anything software or UI related are not Zeiss's strong points along with highly integrated electronics. Just not their gig.
Feb 12, 2020 at 11:15 AM
p.28 #5Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
jhinkey wrote:
Going bigger, including a subscription and in camera editing, and a hard drive was the exact wrong way to go.
Getting smaller/more portable like a phone, using some computational aspects like a phone, having great file transfer software without needing to do things on the camera like a phone would have been the ways to modernize it like 2018 (when it was announced)
Zeiss doesn’t seem to get people want mobility, flexibility, simplicity and connectivity. Not a brick tethered to a monthly subscription where you edit on a 3.5 inch screen.
Zeiss has lost its way. They can’t rely on optical supremacy any longer. Lots of highly corrected competent glass coming from all major makers and 3rd party like Sigma, Tamron and Voigt. Their ergo, size and lens selection needs to be better.
Zeiss is going to have to compete to win. They simply haven’t been able to march to their own drum like Leica.Totally agree. As someone who can in fact afford something like a ZX1, it has no appeal to me due to the characteristics you mention above.
Unfortunately, anything software or UI related are not Zeiss's strong points along with highly integrated electronics. Just not their gig.
I wonder if there was any collaboration with Sony?
nehemiahphoto wrote
In a very simple sense, I think Zeiss was responding to the market’s lower sales, specifically their own, and misjudged.Going bigger, including a subscription and in camera editing, and a hard drive was the exact wrong way to go.
Getting smaller/more portable like a phone, using some computational aspects like a phone, having great file transfer software without needing to do things on the camera like a phone would have been the ways to modernize it like 2018 (when it was announced)
Zeiss doesn’t seem to get people want mobility, flexibility, simplicity and connectivity. Not a brick tethered to a monthly subscription where you edit on a 3.5 inch screen.
Zeiss has lost its way. They can’t rely on optical supremacy any longer. Lots of highly corrected competent glass coming from all major makers and 3rd party like Sigma, Tamron and Voigt. Their ergo, size and lens selection needs to be better.
Zeiss is going to have to compete to win. They simply haven’t been able to march to their own drum like Leica.
Unfortunately, anything software or UI related are not Zeiss's strong points along with highly integrated electronics. Just not their gig.
I wonder if there was any collaboration with Sony?
Feb 12, 2020 at 11:27 AM
p.28 #6Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
chez wrote:
Going bigger, including a subscription and in camera editing, and a hard drive was the exact wrong way to go.
Getting smaller/more portable like a phone, using some computational aspects like a phone, having great file transfer software without needing to do things on the camera like a phone would have been the ways to modernize it like 2018 (when it was announced)
Zeiss doesn’t seem to get people want mobility, flexibility, simplicity and connectivity. Not a brick tethered to a monthly subscription where you edit on a 3.5 inch screen.
Zeiss has lost its way. They can’t rely on optical supremacy any longer. Lots of highly corrected competent glass coming from all major makers and 3rd party like Sigma, Tamron and Voigt. Their ergo, size and lens selection needs to be better.
Zeiss is going to have to compete to win. They simply haven’t been able to march to their own drum like Leica.Totally agree. As someone who can in fact afford something like a ZX1, it has no appeal to me due to the characteristics you mention above.
Unfortunately, anything software or UI related are not Zeiss's strong points along with highly integrated electronics. Just not their gig.I wonder if there was any collaboration with Sony?
I hope not, as that would likely mean there will be no RX1RIII, which would be a real shame.
jhinkey wrote
nehemiahphoto wrote
In a very simple sense, I think Zeiss was responding to the market’s lower sales, specifically their own, and misjudged.Going bigger, including a subscription and in camera editing, and a hard drive was the exact wrong way to go.
Getting smaller/more portable like a phone, using some computational aspects like a phone, having great file transfer software without needing to do things on the camera like a phone would have been the ways to modernize it like 2018 (when it was announced)
Zeiss doesn’t seem to get people want mobility, flexibility, simplicity and connectivity. Not a brick tethered to a monthly subscription where you edit on a 3.5 inch screen.
Zeiss has lost its way. They can’t rely on optical supremacy any longer. Lots of highly corrected competent glass coming from all major makers and 3rd party like Sigma, Tamron and Voigt. Their ergo, size and lens selection needs to be better.
Zeiss is going to have to compete to win. They simply haven’t been able to march to their own drum like Leica.
Unfortunately, anything software or UI related are not Zeiss's strong points along with highly integrated electronics. Just not their gig.
I hope not, as that would likely mean there will be no RX1RIII, which would be a real shame.
Feb 12, 2020 at 11:41 AM
p.28 #9Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
If they only introduced a FF Zeiss Ikon ZM digital camera. I'd be so all over that.
The old film ZM already arguably had better specs than the Leica M7. And most peeps would prefer not to pay $7200 for a Leica.. Cosina I mean Zeiss could even 'cheap out' on it by not offering a back screen and just have playback via bluetooth/smartphone connection. Keep the costs as low as possible just putting the money where it matters - the sensor, meter and rf.
Leica charged a premium for that..
Full disclosure - I am an M7 and M240 user. So I'm calling it how I see it.
The old film ZM already arguably had better specs than the Leica M7. And most peeps would prefer not to pay $7200 for a Leica.. Cosina I mean Zeiss could even 'cheap out' on it by not offering a back screen and just have playback via bluetooth/smartphone connection. Keep the costs as low as possible just putting the money where it matters - the sensor, meter and rf.
Leica charged a premium for that..
Full disclosure - I am an M7 and M240 user. So I'm calling it how I see it.
Mar 05, 2020 at 12:44 PM
p.28 #10Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Desmolicious wrote:
If they only introduced a FF Zeiss Ikon ZM digital camera. I'd be so all over that.
The old film ZM already arguably had better specs than the Leica M7. And most peeps would prefer not to pay $7200 for a Leica.. Cosina I mean Zeiss could even 'cheap out' on it by not offering a back screen and just have playback via bluetooth/smartphone connection. Keep the costs as low as possible just putting the money where it matters - the sensor, meter and rf.
Leica charged a premium for that..
Full disclosure - I am an M7 and M240 user. So I'm...Show more →
Not sure if removing the back screen would result in a cheaper camera. All available experience with premium manufacturers points in a different direction.
If they only introduced a FF Zeiss Ikon ZM digital camera. I'd be so all over that.
The old film ZM already arguably had better specs than the Leica M7. And most peeps would prefer not to pay $7200 for a Leica.. Cosina I mean Zeiss could even 'cheap out' on it by not offering a back screen and just have playback via bluetooth/smartphone connection. Keep the costs as low as possible just putting the money where it matters - the sensor, meter and rf.
Leica charged a premium for that..
Full disclosure - I am an M7 and M240 user. So I'm...Show more →
Not sure if removing the back screen would result in a cheaper camera. All available experience with premium manufacturers points in a different direction.
Mar 05, 2020 at 01:00 PM
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p.28 #11Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/rumor-sony-a7iv-coming-this-year-and-sony-a7riv-low-resolution-shooting-mode-in-the-works/
"late spring to early summer" is the new rumored launch date. To that I say...YEAH RIGHT
But hey, bring on that low-res shooting mode for the Riv!
"late spring to early summer" is the new rumored launch date. To that I say...YEAH RIGHT
But hey, bring on that low-res shooting mode for the Riv!
Mar 05, 2020 at 01:02 PM
p.28 #12Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
And how about the extra take on Zeiss's E lenses from that SAR link's source:
"Zeiss expects their ZX1 camera early summer or late spring. They also 'might' consider developing more lenses for E-mount, but they still 'considered the 40 to be new', so not sure about that."
Can't have more than one lens every two years, we simply can't have that happen. After all, Nov 2018 is very recent and that lens is still really new. CZ is self-isolating from the market, and their user base.
"Zeiss expects their ZX1 camera early summer or late spring. They also 'might' consider developing more lenses for E-mount, but they still 'considered the 40 to be new', so not sure about that."
Can't have more than one lens every two years, we simply can't have that happen. After all, Nov 2018 is very recent and that lens is still really new. CZ is self-isolating from the market, and their user base.
Mar 05, 2020 at 03:23 PM
p.28 #13Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Sorry - this is sort of side-tracking, but I mean to post this every time the demise Zeiss comes up. And I'm big fan of Zeiss C/Y and some of their more modern, now classic ZE/ZF glass. But I think Zeiss has moved on from manufacturing camera optics - probably explains the co-branding with Sony and outsourcing manufacturing to Cosina/Tamron.
Zeiss just isn't a photography optics company anymore - it's photo lenses and the ZX-1 are probably just a way to connect with their history and some halo/prestige, maybe employee passion projects.
The most recent numbers I found were from 2017/2018 and their "vision care/consumer products" segment (of which I'd guess 80+% is eyeglasses + associated tech) accounts for just 19% of the company's revenues. Semiconductor mfg, industrial quality control + research and medical tech each bring in about 50% more revenue and they're growing every year unlike vision/consumer.
My guess is that < 2% of Zeiss revenue is from photography optics
This saddens me, but they found more lucrative segments and seem to do photography as a "hobby".
I guess the upside is that they can take on some riskier and quirky niches like they did with the Loxias (manual focus lenses on the then fledgling mirrorless cameras) and in a way the ZX-1, the company really doesn't depend on these for revenue and they can experiment.
And thanks Philip for turning me on to the C/Y 100/3.5!
From the 2017/2018 fiscal report.
"Vision Care/Consumer Products
As one of the world’s leading manufacturers of eyeglass lenses, ZEISS stands for maximum visual comfort. The movie and camera lenses, binoculars, spotting scopes, planetariums and sighting systems for flight simulators from ZEISS offer their users outstanding optical quality and therefore unforgettable moments."
"The market for cine lenses developed positively in fiscal year 2017/18, thanks in particular to the trend toward full- format cameras, while the market for camera lenses remained challenging and hotly contested."
Zeiss just isn't a photography optics company anymore - it's photo lenses and the ZX-1 are probably just a way to connect with their history and some halo/prestige, maybe employee passion projects.
The most recent numbers I found were from 2017/2018 and their "vision care/consumer products" segment (of which I'd guess 80+% is eyeglasses + associated tech) accounts for just 19% of the company's revenues. Semiconductor mfg, industrial quality control + research and medical tech each bring in about 50% more revenue and they're growing every year unlike vision/consumer.
My guess is that < 2% of Zeiss revenue is from photography optics
This saddens me, but they found more lucrative segments and seem to do photography as a "hobby".I guess the upside is that they can take on some riskier and quirky niches like they did with the Loxias (manual focus lenses on the then fledgling mirrorless cameras) and in a way the ZX-1, the company really doesn't depend on these for revenue and they can experiment.
And thanks Philip for turning me on to the C/Y 100/3.5!
From the 2017/2018 fiscal report.
"Vision Care/Consumer Products
As one of the world’s leading manufacturers of eyeglass lenses, ZEISS stands for maximum visual comfort. The movie and camera lenses, binoculars, spotting scopes, planetariums and sighting systems for flight simulators from ZEISS offer their users outstanding optical quality and therefore unforgettable moments."
"The market for cine lenses developed positively in fiscal year 2017/18, thanks in particular to the trend toward full- format cameras, while the market for camera lenses remained challenging and hotly contested."
Mar 05, 2020 at 04:32 PM
p.28 #14Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
You may be right, lora-to. Right or wrong, I look at the listing order of what a maker is producing. After a good rundown on Carl Zeiss's history, the Zeiss Wiki page lists as follows:
'Semiconductor lithography equipment, light, electron and ion microscopes, coordinate-measuring machines, medical devices, eyeglasses, binoculars, spotting scopes, telescopes, planetarium projectors, and other optical equipment.
As you suggest, that looks like a lot of high profit lines, far more lucrative, certain and future-proof than our 'other optical equipment'.
Carl Zeiss AG (still their name by the way - ZEISS is the shouty new age brand name):
Number of employees: 31,260 (30 September 2019); 6.43 Billion Euros Operating Profit.
People have said they are moving very heavily into cine lenses. But anyone who knows what's going on with consumer stills/video lenses isn't talking much about it, going on web searches anyway. They were never a huge producer of lenses, orders of magnitude below Canon/Nikon. (glad you like the Sonnar.)
'Semiconductor lithography equipment, light, electron and ion microscopes, coordinate-measuring machines, medical devices, eyeglasses, binoculars, spotting scopes, telescopes, planetarium projectors, and other optical equipment.
As you suggest, that looks like a lot of high profit lines, far more lucrative, certain and future-proof than our 'other optical equipment'.
Carl Zeiss AG (still their name by the way - ZEISS is the shouty new age brand name):
Number of employees: 31,260 (30 September 2019); 6.43 Billion Euros Operating Profit.
People have said they are moving very heavily into cine lenses. But anyone who knows what's going on with consumer stills/video lenses isn't talking much about it, going on web searches anyway. They were never a huge producer of lenses, orders of magnitude below Canon/Nikon. (glad you like the Sonnar.)
Mar 05, 2020 at 05:04 PM
p.28 #15Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Luckily for us Cosina/Voigtlander is more than picking up the slack 
They moved from doing some cool but quirky character-type lenses to making just flat-out amazing glass. I sure hope they have a sustainable business there.
I wasn't around then, but maybe Zeiss/Cosina had some effects similar to what I've heard about the Leica/Minolta partnership in the 70s.
Edit: And to get back on topic - I won't be able to justify owning the ZX-1, but our industry needs some sort of "answer" to smartphones. Maybe the ZX-1 is a first step in that direction.
But as with many firsts, I'm afraid the weight, stark design and complexity of the on-board software will probably lead to a muted reception. All that said, I'm excited to try it out some day!
They moved from doing some cool but quirky character-type lenses to making just flat-out amazing glass. I sure hope they have a sustainable business there.I wasn't around then, but maybe Zeiss/Cosina had some effects similar to what I've heard about the Leica/Minolta partnership in the 70s.
Edit: And to get back on topic - I won't be able to justify owning the ZX-1, but our industry needs some sort of "answer" to smartphones. Maybe the ZX-1 is a first step in that direction.
But as with many firsts, I'm afraid the weight, stark design and complexity of the on-board software will probably lead to a muted reception. All that said, I'm excited to try it out some day!
Mar 05, 2020 at 05:15 PM
p.28 #16Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
lora_to wrote
My guess is that < 2% of Zeiss revenue is from photography optics This saddens me, but they found more lucrative segments and seem to do photography as a "hobby".
I heard their revenue from photography optics funds the annual employee Christmas party.
So unless they want to give up that perk, I doubt that they will drop out of the photo market.
My guess is that < 2% of Zeiss revenue is from photography optics
This saddens me, but they found more lucrative segments and seem to do photography as a "hobby".I heard their revenue from photography optics funds the annual employee Christmas party.
So unless they want to give up that perk, I doubt that they will drop out of the photo market.
Mar 05, 2020 at 05:39 PM
p.28 #17Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Zeiss don't rely on photography glass sales, but it's far, far more than 2% of total revenue.
I have a friend that works for them.
Zeiss just don't have the ability to beat the Japanese in that area so they're concentrating on other areas, most of the income is, as I'm told, microscopes etc. for research and medicine.
I have a friend that works for them.
Zeiss just don't have the ability to beat the Japanese in that area so they're concentrating on other areas, most of the income is, as I'm told, microscopes etc. for research and medicine.
Mar 06, 2020 at 02:49 AM
p.28 #18Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Zeiss group results in 2018/2019 € m was of 6.428 , the consumer business (eyeglass, binoculars, cine and camera lenses) was 1.211
I don't have more detailed reports on the consurmer buiness.
I don't have more detailed reports on the consurmer buiness.
Mar 06, 2020 at 04:28 AM
p.28 #19Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
The Zeiss ZX1 was launched 20 months ago and yet it’s not here.
It's been so long that this thread got archived!!!
It's been so long that this thread got archived!!!
Jun 04, 2020 at 08:48 PM
p.28 #20Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Surely no-one still believes that the ZX1 will actually ever be released.
Jun 05, 2020 at 06:16 AM