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Archive 2018 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5

  
 
philip_pj
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p.5 #1 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5


Bokeh and fade character are well-executed. I would not attempt this kind of image with many lenses. The Heliar does this smooth soften to still distinct content in the back of the image. Colours are a signature of this one, as with the other Vintage lenses from Cosina. Detail is impressive.






Edited on Sep 24, 2023 at 05:21 PM · View previous versions



Sep 24, 2023 at 02:33 AM
philip_pj
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p.5 #2 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5


Riverside at sunset - demonstration of: bokeh type, focus fade front/back of the focal plane, bokeh ball transitions by distance, soft treatment of spiky plants.




f3.5




Sep 24, 2023 at 05:21 PM
philip_pj
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p.5 #3 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5


f8 in full mountain light. Colours are rich and appealing while lacking APO tone scaling. Technical performance belies the age of the design (around one hundred years). Scenes have a dynamic appearance and provide a sound basis for post-processing choices. Files are highly manipulable with a high hit rate, due in part to the fine off-plane bokeh. Neutral tones remain very natural. (a7r2 used here, on Novoflex adapter).




f8-f9




Sep 24, 2023 at 05:37 PM
philip_pj
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p.5 #4 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5


..







Sep 27, 2023 at 04:38 PM
philip_pj
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p.5 #5 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5


.. We had over 2000mm of rain last year, 690mm in just 8 weeks. It presented a once in a lifetime chance to photograph the water courses of the Snowy Mountains as they had never run, in living memory. This snow-melt fed river is just 8 kilometers from its source creek, after a weak snow season. But the ground cover and trees are in fabulous condition.







Sep 28, 2023 at 01:42 AM
Knut.
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p.5 #6 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5


philip_pj wrote:
f8 in full mountain light. Colours are rich and appealing while lacking APO tone scaling. Technical performance belies the age of the design (around one hundred years). Scenes have a dynamic appearance and provide a sound basis for post-processing choices. Files are highly manipulable with a high hit rate, due in part to the fine off-plane bokeh. Neutral tones remain very natural. (a7r2 used here, on Novoflex adapter).


To understand your statement, I have a a short question:

What do you mean by APO tone scaling?
(i imagine it refers to some aspect of rendering?)



Sep 28, 2023 at 04:21 AM
Malabito
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p.5 #7 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5


APO tone scaling?

Knut. wrote:
To understand your statement, I have a a short question:

What do you mean by APO tone scaling?
(i imagine it refers to some aspect of rendering?)




Sep 28, 2023 at 05:46 AM
philip_pj
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p.5 #8 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5


A long answer to a short question, apologies in advance.

I shoot most everything travel with 2-3 cameras/lens pairs. Or when bushwalking, I revisit the same compositions with 2-3 different lenses. I've been doing this for many years. It's why I am so keen on people getting their lens comparisons right, so they can properly evaluate what is coming from each one.

I shoot several CV 'Vintage' lenses side-by-side with the 35mm and 50mm CV APOs in this way. Much of what I shoot and post does double duty as guides for future off-track walking. Walkers crossing tough terrain in my country need to form accurate pictures of the terrain features: bushes, heath, sedges, sphagnum, trees, rocks, lichen, even water. We do this - often unconsciously - by seeing both 'brightness tone' and 'colour tone' as well as detail. You can see which plants are young, healthy or not, which are wet, safe to tread on, etc.

As you can imagine, walking across gnarly ground even in a light mist in low light is very hard to do, it's like seeing a B&W image. So it is a very desirable feature to be able to perceive fine differences in these tones, to identify the lie of the land, the best routes to take, the dangerous places, the depth of rivers (from rocks and sand under the stream's flow).

Back to lenses, those that better show you these qualities are ones that best portray the scene by capturing 'distance cues' in various ground cover. It leads to an appreciation of lenses that do this best. In my experience, they happen to be the APOs and Zeiss CY and Loxias, some other CVs are also very good. Flat fields and cross-frame quality are very important too.

Depth perception is also very important to us. It even includes the type and extent of out-of-focus and bokeh - it's no accident CV/Zeiss lenses retain motifs inside the focus fade more than say, Sony or Leica lenses. And they also better show grades of detail at different distances inside the bokeh. Edward Teller's images comparing the new CV 50/1 with the Summilux 50/1.4 asph (at common apertures) illustrates this effect well:

p.6 #13 on this page:
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1741370/5

Fred sometimes shows crops of the trademark CV bokeh effect in his reviews, and much of it it looks ugly at 100%! But smooth bokeh does not help my needs, as outlined above. By the way, we all carry imprints of the countryside we inhabit as children - Nordics see snow and ice tones better, Irish famously see more green tones, etc. The better colour performance of APOs might be a by-product of their greater detail but the colour model is equally critical - Leica APOs do not match the characteristics discussed here, in my experience.
So those are the whys and wherefores from this 3D maven. ;-)



Sep 28, 2023 at 04:57 PM
philip_pj
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p.5 #9 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5


Here is an example that hopefully shows some of what APO lenses can bring to this kind of photography. f10, so deep into diffraction but fine detail still. CV 35/2 APO (E).




f10 - ISO 800 - 1/160s (handheld)




Sep 28, 2023 at 05:03 PM
philip_pj
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p.5 #10 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5


From the 50/3.5 Heliar (on Sony a7r):




..






..






..









Apr 16, 2024 at 08:34 PM
mudlake
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p.5 #11 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5


Phillip - what are your thoughts on the new 50/3.5 APO? It looks like a winner.


Apr 17, 2024 at 12:20 AM
brick33308
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p.5 #12 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5


how does this lens compare to the (hopefully) soon to be released Voigtlander 50mm f/3.5 APO-Lanthar?


Aug 18, 2024 at 11:17 AM
philip_pj
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p.5 #13 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5


Sorry, ML, I missed your post in 4/24. For what I do in general, it's the best option. Fred's reviews and images tell the story. I had hoped for a similar rendering with elevated CA protection (the Heliar needs a little clean up at times on water) and the same IQ as the 50/2 APO in most respects, better in some.

But keeping that ultra high 'see through' transparency and colour intensity the Heliar 50/3.5 has as it main features. And they did it, and added high IQ close focus, more settled bokeh, kept the weight the same (T2 black, the T1 also).

I can't help but wonder what is responsible for the 'digital look' that has many here using film and looking for remedies in profiles. Designers just love aspherics, but that 'too perfect' look that high asph lenses have might be a two-edged sword, if they are not handled carefully in the relentless urge to perfect images. The Nikon forum has a very interesting thread about the 40/2 and the 50/1.8 lenses:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1821301/

Is popular taste also changing in the wake of phone image market saturation, acting as an unconscious influence? Image rendering must serve public tastes so we might see a reversion to what used to be mainstream values in photos.

The 50/1.8 S has as many asph elements as it does ED elements. I can't find a bad word about aspherics in the literature and that makes me suspicious. I see asph as a kind of optical rocket fuel, needed for the very fast and APO lenses; and zooms of course, the major beneficiaries.

50mm is close the centre focal length of my landscapes. The longer walk/travel opportunities are dramatically taken care of by the very light VM 75/1.5. I also just bought an Ultron 28/2. I forgive them each for their one asph element, placed at the rear, just like the Otuses. So I am finally 'there' for the long walks where very low weight is a necessity.

In the new 50/3.5 APOs (and 50/2.2), Cosina has aimed these lenses squarely at the traditional photographer demographic - people who look past the odd shapes and ring designs. It's too high a bar for most people, they would not be seen outdoors with such lenses.

You would even have trouble marketing an 'f2.2' lens, lol, let alone a one ring 50/3.5. So they feel they can really let rip on these old design lines. The people they want to reach will really like the direction they are taking optically.

I now see their move back into home territory (M-mount) as an expression of disappointment at how modern photography is going. Maybe that is why they made the mirrorless mounts 75/1.5 and 50/1 lenses large and heavy. 'If this is what you want, here it is'.

Even their images of the Z/RF/E versions of the 75/1.5 are so dark you can barely see them, it's same in Dustin Abbott's review. But the VM lenses are well lit!

The Nikon page banner has a frosty snow scene, cold and unfriendly. The sad women in the RF/E pages look like they are asking: 'why?' But the VM page is a warm toned wall, and the woman is walking towards the light. It all gets chosen carefully.

https://www.cosina.co.jp/voigtlander/en/rf-mount-lenses/nokton-75mm-f1-5-aspherical/
https://www.cosina.co.jp/voigtlander/en/e-mount/nokton-75mm-f1-5-aspherical/
https://www.cosina.co.jp/voigtlander/en/z-mount/nokton-75mm-f1-5-aspherical/
https://dustinabbott.net/2024/07/voigtlander-nokton-75mm-f1-5-review/#google_vignette

(Life can be hard for noticers.)




'reach out and touch' level of color accuracy






one of the better tracks, most are more like rock climbing






easy to see why people think the Tasmanian Tiger still lives



Edited on Aug 19, 2024 at 05:54 PM · View previous versions



Aug 18, 2024 at 05:37 PM
philip_pj
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p.5 #14 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5


At this early stage of learning, 'how does this lens compare to the (hopefully) soon to be released Voigtlander 50mm f/3.5 APO-Lanthar?' is too difficult to do other than speculate about. Fred is looking at each aspect in turn and no one else has one, at least what is seen online. So we only know the broad brush terms - infinity performance, flare, distortion, colour, general bokeh. It passed with flying colours, so to speak. (interesting numbers you have).


Aug 18, 2024 at 05:44 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.5 #15 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5


Philip,
Now that you got the new CV 50/3.5 APO, are you keeping the Heliar?



Sep 05, 2024 at 11:27 AM
philip_pj
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p.5 #16 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5


Keeping the Heliar? I expect so, I really like what it does and Australia is a very small market. Although there are many Leica M enthusiasts around. Selling lenses is much harder here so I have tended to accumulate them over the years, too many of them. They each become a kind of talisman, so I have to be careful buying. You've been the greatest help!

Our snow season ends in early October so I'll take both 50/3.5s along in one or two trips this year, before snake season and heat comes along in mid-December. So after 5-6 weeks I'll then be able to post some comparos, as some have requested. The Kolari UT of the a7rII appeared on the doorstep this week, so I am looking forward to it as well. One less factor getting in the way.

I also bought a demo Ultron 28/2 from the distributor last week. For what and how I shoot in the Snowy Mountains, a 28/50 will cover enough, and good to keep a light pack for the longer walks.

While being the same basic configuration, the two 50/3.5s are two very different designs, so I am guessing they will be quite different in several respects. Much depends on the weather, the strong sun (same latitude as San Francisco, but 2000m) can take the gloss off many lenses, and blow highlight detail. We'll see.



Sep 06, 2024 at 12:19 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.5 #17 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5


philip_pj wrote:
Keeping the Heliar? I expect so, I really like what it does and Australia is a very small market. Although there are many Leica M enthusiasts around. Selling lenses is much harder here so I have tended to accumulate them over the years, too many of them. They each become a kind of talisman, so I have to be careful buying. You've been the greatest help!

Our snow season ends in early October so I'll take both 50/3.5s along in one or two trips this year, before snake season and heat comes along in mid-December. So after 5-6 weeks I'll then
...Show more

The Voigtlander 50mm f/3.5 Heliar is a unique lens that's probably worth keeping, especially since it's now discontinued. Made of brass and incredibly well-crafted, it's hard to distinguish from the new APO version aside from the different curvature shape. The Heliar is also an f/3.5 lens and is well-corrected for longitudinal chromatic aberration.

Despite its brass construction, it weighs only 187 grams and features the legendary Heliar optical design.

I'm glad you got your "UT." Don't forget to tweak the white balance. If you find a better setting, please let me know. I'm shipping my brand new A7CR to Kolari today.



Sep 06, 2024 at 10:23 AM
philip_pj
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p.5 #18 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5


Thanks for the reminder, I almost forgot. I'll save it right off the bat.


Sep 06, 2024 at 05:20 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.5 #19 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5


philip_pj wrote:
Thanks for the reminder, I almost forgot. I'll save it right off the bat.


Tomorrow, I'll spend more time tweaking my settings further, as they still seem too warm with the previous settings I posted.

Here's how to adjust it to match the regular Sony cover glass temperature and tint:

Set the camera to Custom WB and take a picture of a gray card with the UT camera (outdoors on a sunny day).
Take another picture using the Daylight preset.
Import both images into Lightroom and compare their "temperature" and "tint" values.
Adjust the temperature and tint settings to make the Daylight preset image match the gray card image as closely as possible.
Note the differences before and after the adjustments.
For every 100 points you change the temperature, this translates to 0.5 points on the Sony WB tweak tool. For every 3 points you change the tint, this translates to 0.25 points on the Sony WB tweak tool.

Today, I used a different method, referencing the Daylight WB from an unmodded A7CR instead of using a Custom WB from a gray card. Try it out and let me know your thoughts.

Here are the settings I got:

A-B: B5
G-M: G2.5







Sep 06, 2024 at 10:54 PM
philip_pj
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p.5 #20 · Voigtlander Heliar 50mm f/3.5


Just curious - how would WB be affected if I accepted what appeared using Auto WB as per standard, and then tuned it to suit in post-processing software? Is it really off and does it have an impact on performance?


Sep 07, 2024 at 06:16 PM
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