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Archive 2017 · Pre-order: Sony A9

Matt Grum
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p.59 #1 · p.59 #1 · Pre-order: Sony A9

Bespoked wrote:
Has anyone had a chance to measure the sensor read rate?

I know it's fast, but I know it's not going to be instantaneous, it's probably too early to tell as no one with the camera will test it this way, but thought I'd ask in case I missed it.

I ask this because I'm worried about banding at certain shutter speeds when shooting high frame rates, I use my A6xxx series for the fast frame rate stuff (A7RII for low speed, high resolution), I was hoping to ditch the APS-C and use A9's for almost all of the work for events...Show more →

To my knowledge no-one has measured it but reviewers have reported being told a scan time of 1/160s. That would make it very close to the Canon 6D (1/180s), so given the absence of threads complaining about 6D banding issues it should be ok, of course people are going to go looking for banding problems with the electronic shutter so I'm sure they'll find some.

May 17, 2017 at 09:36 AM

SoundHound
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p.59 #2 · p.59 #2 · Pre-order: Sony A9

Compared to what? I have two D5s. The A9 is substantially cheap(er) than the D5 even with the (for me mandatory) battery grip. I do 75% of my work with the 23-70 F2.8 so I ordered this too.

The virtual full frame AF areas allow filling the frame with a human subject (eye/face focus) which allows more, effective mP in post. Compared to the D5 I would estimate the results of a27 mP sensor. This should allow for full figure framing and cropping to ECUs in the same capture.

There are some venues where any shutter noise will get you thrown out (various acoustic live music, Motion Picture/TV sets, etc.). As for the longest lenses the silent shutter is not so important but a no blackout VF is.

Likely there are some problems with such a new design but I preordered-earliest. However I don't have any plans to sell my D5s soon.

May 17, 2017 at 10:08 AM

mttran
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p.59 #3 · p.59 #3 · Pre-order: Sony A9

Safer to direct hard earned money to latest technology mfg. Better DR, smarter and most stable AE/AF engineering system always be the right precision platform for our photography needs.

May 17, 2017 at 02:53 PM

GMPhotography
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p.59 #4 · p.59 #4 · Pre-order: Sony A9

Well I for one want one really bad. I see the value in it very much.

May 17, 2017 at 04:40 PM

k-h.a.w
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p.59 #5 · p.59 #5 · Pre-order: Sony A9

I am hoping my pre-ordered A9 arrives later this month.

That would let me keep my fingers on the pulse of camera technology development.
Also compare it, for example, with the Olympus E-M1.2.
And of course the A9 let's me snap pictures.

Isn't it great to have all these choices Sony, Olympus, Nikon, Leica for me and Fuji, Canon, and others?

K-H.

May 17, 2017 at 06:28 PM

rico
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p.59 #6 · p.59 #6 · Pre-order: Sony A9

For me, the most exciting part of Alpha 7 is lens selection, and I couldn't say that two years ago! The speed of development, optical performance, and price range is breathtaking. Kudos to Sony for creating the open FE ecosystem. I have a less sanguine view of the bodies, and belong to the camp that wants a bigger body—maybe not D3X big.

Obviously impossible, but I only wish the FE lens family could shared with A mount. The A99ii has that bigger body, big buttons, better LCD articulation, and batteries with 50% more capacity. Sigh.

May 17, 2017 at 06:58 PM

joelRichards
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p.59 #7 · p.59 #7 · Pre-order: Sony A9

k-h.a.w wrote:
I am hoping my pre-ordered A9 arrives later this month.

That would let me keep my fingers on the pulse of camera technology development.
Also compare it, for example, with the Olympus E-M1.2.
And of course the A9 let's me snap pictures.

Lately I have been using the mechanical shutter to shoot Hummingbirds with the A7r.2 and E-M1.2.
Indeed that avoids the distortions caused by the silent shutter in both cameras.
We'll see if the silent shutter readout in the A9 is fast enough to avoid those distortions.
Otherwise one has to fall back onto the mechanical shutter for...Show more →
A Dutch reviewer recently shot a prop plan taking off and landing with the A9. The distortion was there is you knew what to look for but it appears to be on another level than existing large sensor cameras. I suspect even with hummingbirds it will be a none issue.

May 17, 2017 at 08:14 PM

k-h.a.w
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p.59 #8 · p.59 #8 · Pre-order: Sony A9

joelRichards wrote:
A Dutch reviewer recently shot a prop plan taking off and landing with the A9. The distortion was there is you knew what to look for but it appears to be on another level than existing large sensor cameras. I suspect even with hummingbirds it will be a none issue.

Thanks Joel. I saw that review. https://www.cameraland.nl/blog/review-sony-a9-the-beast/213#.WR0lrTOZPVv

https://www.cameraland.nl/images2/BLOG/sony/a9/resize/36.jpg
https://www.cameraland.nl/images2/BLOG/sony/a9/resize/37.jpg

You may well be right. I certainly hope so. In any case using the mechanical shutter would work just fine with Hummingbirds.
Also, not having long teles isn't really an impedement for shooting Hummingbirds.
As Robert Capa pointed out: “If your photos aren’t good enough, you’re not close enough.”
Well, this image I shot within about 2 feet.
https://winklers.smugmug.com/KHW/Pics-by-Date/2015-09-08-A7r29028-FE-OSS/i-HPmLpq4/0/O/_DSC5899_C1_240_0.4_0%2C8_Crop_1840x1472_v2_1500x1228.jpg
A7r.2 + FE 90/2.8 Macro G OSS @ f/2.8, ISO 320, 1/2000 s

K-H.

May 17, 2017 at 11:54 PM

Stoffer
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p.59 #9 · p.59 #9 · Pre-order: Sony A9

GMPhotography wrote:
Well I for one want one really bad. I see the value in it very much.

Hi Guy, are we going to see a rolling review of the A9 once you get it? I think it is time the do these with a camera too, those rolling lens reviews have been a real treat!

May 18, 2017 at 02:04 AM

GMPhotography
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p.59 #10 · p.59 #10 · Pre-order: Sony A9

I hope so. Still working out the money.

May 18, 2017 at 04:15 AM

rico
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p.59 #11 · p.59 #11 · Pre-order: Sony A9

Kickstarter.

May 18, 2017 at 04:52 AM

artur5
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p.59 #12 · p.59 #12 · Pre-order: Sony A9

Matt Grum wrote:
To my knowledge no-one has measured it but reviewers have reported being told a scan time of 1/160s. That would make it very close to the Canon 6D (1/180s), so given the absence of threads complaining about 6D banding issues it should be ok, of course people are going to go looking for banding problems with the electronic shutter so I'm sure they'll find some.

The "readout time" of mechanical shutters is not the flash sync speed. It has to be considerably shorter. Once the first curtain has reached the bottom of the frame, the second curtain shouldn't start for at least 1/300" or 1/400", because this is the lightning time of many big flashes at fullpower. For the Canon 6D, a a flash sync of 1/180" means that the curtains take aprox. 1/300" to travel from top to bottom (or viceversa). For cameras with a sync of 1/250" the curtains must travel in 1/500" or less. I suspect though that Sony and other manufacturers limit the lightning time of dedicated flashes in order to raise the sync.speed for marketing purposes Proof is that when using manual flashes the speed goes down from 1/250" to 1/160-1/200".
Anyway, back on topic, if it's true that the readout of the A9 is 1/160" then it's still slower by some margin than the speed of most mechanical shutters. Sony claimed in the press release that the A9 is 20 faster than their former models The slowest of the A7 series is the A7rII at 1/12". That would mean 1/240" for the A9 ?.
It's easy to test it with an analog oscilloscope. I did with my A7rII and it's certainly 1/12".
I also tested the speed of the mech.shutter and its around 1/300-1/320", so with manual flashes near at full output, you can't use 1/250". Even 1/200"·is quite tight.

Edited on May 18, 2017 at 07:33 AM · View previous versions

May 18, 2017 at 05:52 AM

MJKoski
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p.59 #13 · p.59 #13 · Pre-order: Sony A9

Did you already have a look at this: https://www.dpreview.com/articles/7266455439/sony-a9-real-world-iso-invariance-and-dynamic-range

"This indicates that even the 14-bit Raws have at most 12 EV of dynamic range at the pixel level, placing our estimates of base ISO dynamic range almost a full stop behind the a7, and likely further behind the a7R II at equivalent viewing size (normalized)."

Maybe expected, maybe not. But that article points the camera purely to FPS activities. A7r2 output is far cleaner not even counting downsampling to 24MP. So, for post capabilities you have an old Canon in your hands.

May 18, 2017 at 08:16 AM

Matt Grum
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p.59 #14 · p.59 #14 · Pre-order: Sony A9

artur5 wrote:
The "readout time" of mechanical shutters is not the flash sync speed. It has to be considerably shorter.... For cameras with a sync of 1/250" the curtains must travel in 1/500" or less.

I mentioned earlier in the thread that mechanical shutter transit times are faster the sync speed, but I don't think the difference is as great as you suggest. Sync speeds are quite aggressive, the t0.5 duration of an SB800 on full power is 1/1500s, so at full power you could juuust sync at 1/250s with a 1/300s transit shutter, though some of the frame would catch more of the tail, so 1/320s would be safer.

If the A9 scan time is indeed 1/160s then it's probably around half a stop slower than the 6D (transit time 1/200 - 1/220s).

artur5 wrote:
It's easy to test it with an analog oscilloscope. I did with my A7rII and it's certainly 1/12". I also tested the speed of the mech.shutter and its around 1/300-1/320", so with manual flashes near at full output, you can't use 1/250". Even 1/200"·is quite tight.

Did you test any other manufacturer's mechanical shutters? I imagine the consumer models would be similar.

Edited on May 18, 2017 at 09:27 AM · View previous versions

May 18, 2017 at 09:11 AM

MJKoski
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p.59 #15 · p.59 #15 · Pre-order: Sony A9

Bespoked wrote:
The A9 is designed for shooting fast, at high sensitivities (ISO640 and up, that's high for film guys like me who like to shoot at ISO100).

It's a great camera doing what no other camera can do and is designed to be used for specific purposes, i.e. sports, weddings etc. where you'll be shooting moving subjects with fast shutter speeds and sometimes in low light.

Comparing the A9 to the 7RII is like comparing the D5 to the D810.

Churches and other building where weddings take place (may) be dimly lit. So, maybe not so shiny situation after all. Suppose you take A9 and A7R2 as a hi-res option where you need to go shoot, then you must remember that A9 must be exposed differently compared to A7R2.

A9 was marketed with class-leading DR and speed once again, that DR part dropped off from that now. Some Canon folks switched to Sony for better IQ, now they shall have Canon A9 in hands considering IQ.

May 18, 2017 at 09:23 AM

Matt Grum
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p.59 #16 · p.59 #16 · Pre-order: Sony A9

MJKoski wrote:
Churches and other building where weddings take place (may) be dimly lit. So, maybe not so shiny situation after all. Suppose you take A9 and A7R2 as a hi-res option where you need to go shoot, then you must remember that A9 must be exposed differently compared to A7R2.

Actually above ISO640 it becomes much more invariant, so in dimly lit areas like churches you would expose just like the A7RII.

The issue comes when you want to pull up the shadows or protect the highlights in good light, so for shooting landscapes and sunsets it's not ideal. But in sports you would rarely pull up the shadows, or push the image around a lot in post.

MJKoski wrote:
A9 was marketed with class-leading DR and speed once again, that DR part dropped off from that now. Some Canon folks switched to Sony for better IQ, now they shall have Canon A9 in hands considering IQ.

I admit it's ironic that Canon is now the leader, ahead of both Sony and Nikon in the DR stakes (for high fps cameras)!

May 18, 2017 at 09:32 AM

MJKoski
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p.59 #17 · p.59 #17 · Pre-order: Sony A9

This was from A9 announcement: https://www.dpreview.com/news/1308959313/the-sony-a9-is-a-24mp-sports-shooting-powerhouse

"High Sensitivity and Wide Dynamic Range

The unique design of the α9 image sensor represents the pinnacle of Sony device technology. The 24.2 MP 2 full-frame stacked CMOS sensor is back-illuminated, allowing to capture maximum light and produce outstanding, true-to-life image quality. The sensor also enables the diverse ISO range of 100 – 51200, expandable to 50 – 20480014, ensuring optimum image quality with minimum noise at all settings.

The enhanced BIONZ X processor plays a large part in image quality as well, as it helps to minimize noise in the higher sensitivity range while also reducing the need to limit ISO sensitivity in situations where the highest quality image is required.

The new α9 also supports uncompressed 14-bit RAW, ensuring users can get the most out of the wide dynamic range of the sensor."

According to the new article 14-bit RAW gives no benefits with A9. So that went a bit south.

May 18, 2017 at 10:05 AM

snapsy
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p.59 #18 · p.59 #18 · Pre-order: Sony A9

artur5 wrote:
The "readout time" of mechanical shutters is not the flash sync speed. It has to be considerably shorter. Once the first curtain has reached the bottom of the frame, the second curtain shouldn't start for at least 1/300" or 1/400", because this is the lightning time of many big flashes at fullpower. For the Canon 6D, a a flash sync of 1/180" means that the curtains take aprox. 1/300" to travel from top to bottom (or viceversa). For cameras with a sync of 1/250" the curtains must travel in 1/500" or less. I suspect though that Sony and other manufacturers...Show more →

The 20x readout claim was relative to the A7II, per the footnote of the claim in Sony's press release.

May 18, 2017 at 10:29 AM

Matt Grum
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p.59 #19 · p.59 #19 · Pre-order: Sony A9

MJKoski wrote:
This was from A9 announcement: https://www.dpreview.com/news/1308959313/the-sony-a9-is-a-24mp-sports-shooting-powerhouse

"High Sensitivity and Wide Dynamic Range

The unique design of the α9 image sensor represents the pinnacle of Sony device technology. The 24.2 MP 2 full-frame stacked CMOS sensor is back-illuminated, allowing to capture maximum light and produce outstanding, true-to-life image quality. The sensor also enables the diverse ISO range of 100 – 51200, expandable to 50 – 20480014, ensuring optimum image quality with minimum noise at all settings.

The enhanced BIONZ X processor plays a large part in image quality as well, as it helps to minimize noise in the higher sensitivity range while also reducing...Show more →

And Hasselblad claim their medium format system gives shallower depth of field, which it doesn't (because of their slow lenses), and Canon claimed for years to offer "high dynamic range" when they were three stops behind the competition.

Marketing = lies. That applies to all camera manufacturers.

May 18, 2017 at 11:11 AM

artur5
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p.59 #20 · p.59 #20 · Pre-order: Sony A9

Matt Grum wrote:
I mentioned earlier in the thread that mechanical shutter transit times are faster the sync speed, but I don't think the difference is as great as you suggest. Sync speeds are quite aggressive, the t0.5 duration of an SB800 on full power is 1/1500s, so at full power you could juuust sync at 1/250s with a 1/300s transit shutter, though some of the frame would catch more of the tail, so 1/320s would be safer.
If the A9 scan time is indeed 1/160s then it's probably around half a stop slower than the 6D (transit time 1/200 - 1/220s).

Did you...Show more →
I suppose that most manufacturers are optimistic with the sync speed. They expect that people use dedicated flashes, which rarely fire at full power, unless pushed to the limits.
I tried the A7rII with a Metz 45CT4. According to Metz, at full power the flash duration is 1/300". At 1/2 power is 1/1000" and at 1/4 power is 1/2500"
Shooting at 1/250" and flash at full power, there's a distinct black strip on top of the frame. At 1/2 power there's still a black strip but narrower. It disappears with the flash at 1/4.
Shooting at 1/200" with the flash a full output, I see no black strip but a very tiny part of the upper side is slightly and gradually darkened. No ill effect at all with the flash at 1/2 power.
I conclude that if you shoot in normal conditions, 1/250" is perfectly usable but if you approach the limits of the flash range better lower the sync speed to 1/200".
This, of course, with non dedicated flashes. No problem at all when the camera and the flash 'talk' properly.

May 18, 2017 at 11:13 AM

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