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Archive 2017 · Question about portraits with M4/3

  
 
bobbytan
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p.4 #1 · Question about portraits with M4/3


I am with you on this. I bought the A7R II with 3 lenses and sold it after only a few months. And I did that twice! The m43 format suits me better - it's just more fun to travel and shoot with. I bought the A7R II for the 3rd time last month, and have maybe shot 20 frames so far. Who knows how long I am going to hang on to the Sony this time around! At the end of the day, a camera that is more fun to shoot with beats a little extra IQ ... to me anyway.

Joseph Marney wrote:
Ultimately, there are positive aspects of either system that cannot be replicated by the other.
Conversely, there are negative aspects of either systems that are not replicated by the other.
More importantly, MOST things can be achieved by either system.

Thankfully, we all get to choose what is most important to ourselves, and save everyone from online pissing matches.

I decided to split the difference - switching the E-M1 II for the A7R II, but keeping my Pen-F and compact primes. Ultimately, the A7R II has superior IQ, but I enjoy the handling and "photographic experience" more with Olympus.





Apr 07, 2017 at 12:47 PM
savingspaces
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p.4 #2 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Makten wrote:
Butthurt much?


Just the truth - I know it hurts those with big egos. But what can you do right?



Apr 07, 2017 at 02:23 PM
Makten
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p.4 #3 · Question about portraits with M4/3


savingspaces wrote:
Just the truth - I know it hurts those with big egos. But what can you do right?


Well, the truth is that smaller formats struggle with less collected light at the same exposure. Which means the manufacturers want to even things out, by weakening the CFA. This gives lower noise, but also less true colors because of greater overlap between R, G and B.
That's a fact. Physics. You just can't get the same low noise AND the same color accuracy between different sensor sizes.

Now, I'm happy for you if you like the MFT format. I really, really wanted to like it. I loved the lenses and the handling of the cameras. But I'm very picky about IQ, and mostly colors and acutance, not resolution.

Also, we're obviously shooting different things. Take a minute to compare our Flickr stuff. Your conclusion is not the same as mine, and that's fine. We have different goals and different cravings.



Apr 07, 2017 at 03:33 PM
Jorgen Udvang
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p.4 #4 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Makten wrote:
Well, the truth is that smaller formats struggle with less collected light at the same exposure. Which means the manufacturers want to even things out, by weakening the CFA. This gives lower noise, but also less true colors because of greater overlap between R, G and B.
That's a fact. Physics. You just can't get the same low noise AND the same color accuracy between different sensor sizes.

Now, I'm happy for you if you like the MFT format. I really, really wanted to like it. I loved the lenses and the handling of the cameras. But I'm very picky about
...Show more

With all due respect, here's why your comparison doesn't hold for real life photography:
When I changed from Nikon D810 to Panasonic GX8 a year or so ago, it was mainly to save money and to save weight and bulk. I expected the image quality to be worse. The D810 is capable of some amazing image quality, particularly at low ISO.

For practical reasons, I use a combination of zoom lenses an one or two primes, but for this example, I'll only talk about the zooms that would cover my day-to-day use.

To get full advantage of the D810 image quality, I would need to use a 24-70mm f/2.8 and the 70-200mm f/2.8. Those are great lenses, but there's a big downside; they're very big and very heavy. The total setup weighs 3,600 grams or thereabouts. I could save half a kilogram using the 70-200 f/4, but then I have to compensate using higher ISO in low light, taking away some of the full frame advantage.

In reality I used the Nikkor 24-120mm f/4, bringing the weight down to 1,600 grams. The 24-120mm, like most of its brothers and sisters, is a fine lens, but the 5x zoom range takes its toll. There's less micro contrast and more CA to mention a couple, and although CA is easy to correct in post, that too lowers the image quality.

So after a short stint with an E-M1 and some of the best Zuiko lenses, the 40-150mm f/2.8 among them, I decided to go all small with the GX8 plus 12-35mm and 35-100mm f/2.8, giving me the same range as the big, heavy Nikon combo, but a 2 stop theoretical light gathering disadvantage.The combo weighs in at 1,200 grams. Adding a second body for backup and to avoid changing lenses would bring the weight up to 1,700 grams, roughly the weight of the small Nikon combo.

To start with the image quality, I can safely say that I have never shot with zoom lenses that are better than these two. Colours, contrast, distortion, detail rendering... you name it. It's all great. Post processing is quick and easy. There's simply not much to correct. Sharpness is on par with most primes I've tried, bokeh is just the way I like it, soft and beautiful with excellent transitions between in focus and out of focus areas.

Then there's the small sensor and its lack of light gathering properties. It's true of course. However, with dual IS, I gain at least one stop back compared to Nikon's VR for stationary subjects, and compared to the already inferior 24-120mm, I'm on level with light gathering and way ahead when it comes to total image quality except for DR in contrasty scenes. However, even DR is much better than expected, and many "lost" highlights and deep shadows can be recovered in ACR, even with the GX8.

The end result for me is that the image quality compared with the full frame Nikon gear that I actually brought with me is at least as high using the Panasonic. When I add to that the advantages of articulated LCD, tilting EVF, 4K video and ergonomics that in many areas better those of Nikon, the choice is very easy. I simply take better photos with the Panasonic, technically because of the excellent lenses and artistically because the camera is easier to handle and much less intrusive.

If I want even better subject isolation/shallow DOF, there are countless f/0.95 and f/1.2 lenses available in m4/3 mount. In addition, I can use full frame or APS-C lenses with a Speed Booster. I recently bought a Samyang 135mm f/2 in F-mount to use partly on my F6 and partly with the GX8 with or without a Speed Booster. For around $500 plus the booster that gives me 270mm (eqv.) reach at f/2 or 192mm (eqv.) at f/1.4. The closest to that I can come with a Nikkor is the $5,000 200mm f/2 at four times the weight or the above mentioned 70-200. Yes, it's an apples to bananas comparison, but you'll struggle to see that in the images.

There are no equivalents, and all systems are different, as are photographers' needs. However, as technology improves, we are reaching a point where it hardly matters what we shoot with as long as we choose the best lenses available for each system. For me, the quality of what I currently use far exceeds my needs. If I have an urge to carry something big and bulky, there are a couple of GX680 bodies with lenses to match in my dry cabinets. Those 8x6 cm negatives do make a difference and make the comparison between m4/3 and "full frame" seem rather mundane.



Apr 07, 2017 at 06:22 PM
savingspaces
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p.4 #5 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Joseph Marney wrote:
Ultimately, there are positive aspects of either system that cannot be replicated by the other.
Conversely, there are negative aspects of either systems that are not replicated by the other.
More importantly, MOST things can be achieved by either system.

Thankfully, we all get to choose what is most important to ourselves, and save everyone from online pissing matches.

I decided to split the difference - switching the E-M1 II for the A7R II, but keeping my Pen-F and compact primes. Ultimately, the A7R II has superior IQ, but I enjoy the handling and "photographic experience" more with Olympus.


I wish the lighting was the same. Nice shots though.



Apr 07, 2017 at 09:33 PM
savingspaces
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p.4 #6 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Makten wrote:
Well, the truth is that smaller formats struggle with less collected light at the same exposure. Which means the manufacturers want to even things out, by weakening the CFA. This gives lower noise, but also less true colors because of greater overlap between R, G and B.
That's a fact. Physics. You just can't get the same low noise AND the same color accuracy between different sensor sizes.

Now, I'm happy for you if you like the MFT format. I really, really wanted to like it. I loved the lenses and the handling of the cameras. But I'm very picky about
...Show more

Looking at your flickr feed after a few years, it is clear that you have improved as much as I have. . We are both still snapshot shooters. With that said, all I can do is laugh at that you think somehow you are superior to others as far as quality is concerned. Of course you have every right to feel any way you want to , but I would focus on trying to produce winner shots, because no matter how "perfect" colors maybe in a particular shot, a snap is a snap no matter what gear was used. Content, light, impact etc... what makes a winning shot. Not to mention, that if you were to compare your FF gear against MF, the MF is superior. So my question is this: why not use medium format? Surly the "differences" you claim between M4//3 and FF is also there between FF and MF.

I like to challenge people who make claims like yours is to give 1 example that bests Kwalsh's landscape or BobbyTan's shots made with M4/3. I mean produce a photo that has better color and acutance than the results from these two exceptional photographers. Don't matter what it is of.

Because I sincerely believe that who is behind the viewfinder is much more important than the gear. And the differences are not as big as you claim - read the other reply from Jorgen. Sounds more realistic than your claim.

I'll be waiting for your examples. Should be easy since you see the difference.



Apr 07, 2017 at 10:11 PM
Jman13
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p.4 #7 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Wow has this thread gone off the rails ..


Apr 07, 2017 at 10:28 PM
savingspaces
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p.4 #8 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Jman13 wrote:
Wow has this thread gone off the rails ..


I think we are still on topic. People are making big claims so it is natural to want to see some proof. And don't think for a second that I believe that M4/3 as good as FF - it is not, but I don't feel that the difference as big as some snappers claim. It is like some other forums with their nikon canon battles. You know, that one about the sensor's DR. Yet when you look at them side by side, nobody can really pick which is which.



Apr 07, 2017 at 10:40 PM
Makten
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p.4 #9 · Question about portraits with M4/3


savingspaces wrote:
Looking at your flickr feed after a few years, it is clear that you have improved as much as I have. . We are both still snapshot shooters. With that said, all I can do is laugh at that you think somehow you are superior to others as far as quality is concerned. Of course you have every right to feel any way you want to , but I would focus on trying to produce winner shots, because no matter how "perfect" colors maybe in a particular shot, a snap is a snap no matter what gear was used. Content,
...Show more

You have obviously not understood a word of what I have written. Over and out, I have better things to do than argue with people that don't understand that we have different wants and needs, and that small differences can be enough reason to prefer one system over an other.



Apr 08, 2017 at 05:47 AM
millsart
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p.4 #10 · Question about portraits with M4/3


I'm a pretty poor hack of a guitar player (but I do enjoy it as a hobby)

I just got a Fender David Gilmour custom shop 'black strat", which is about as close to perfection (for that style of guitar) as you can get.

I sure as heck can't play "Comfortably Numb" as well as Mr. Gilmour himself, or even a bunch of people posting Youtube videos

The guitar doesn't make me a better player, and the guitar doesn't hold me back either

It was simply a choice to buy it, because I wanted it. There is no your not good enough so you shouldn't have or need that guitar rule. There is no "you only play at home for fun, you only need a $299 Squier strat"

If one wants to plink away poorly on a custom shop instrument, more power to them.

No one will hear a difference in my playing, but I enjoy owning it.

I'm happy, I paid for it, all the more there is to it.


Cameras are the same way really, I shoot a Leica, I shoot m43 and I shoot my iPhone (more than anything).

I like having choices in the tools I use, and I don't have to justify what I've bought to anyone except myself (just like no one else does either)

Way too much concern with over what other people are using, or not using in this world....

I also own a carbon fiber racing bike, though I'm a recreational rider. I get a lot of "nice bike, do you compete?" questions when out riding it.

I ride in shorts and a t-shirt, I don't wear a replica team racing jersey, I'm not trying to look a part or present an image. I simply enjoyed how the bike performed, and while I can admit its overkill for my needs, I enjoy it.

The fact some people I pass on a trail feel the need to make complements or cast judgement on me is really all upon them, and has nothing to do with me.


I'm just a guy who's enjoying riding my bike. If they want to see me as anything more than that, its all on them. Shame really they let their focus be taken off enjoying their own time riding because they are judging my choices......






Apr 08, 2017 at 11:33 AM
savingspaces
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p.4 #11 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Makten wrote:
You have obviously not understood a word of what I have written. Over and out, I have better things to do than argue with people that don't understand that we have different wants and needs, and that small differences can be enough reason to prefer one system over an other.


I sure have. And what you have written in your last post is how it should have been written. Not in your usual condescending style. If m4/3 is good enough gear for nat geo, surely m4/3 is good enough. And I am saying that if you make a claim like yours about color etc... the least you can do is produce an example for all of us to learn from, because unless you are not keeping those special examples on your Flickr feed, your snaps look like it could have been taken with any camera. Isn't interesting that the replies either completely ignore the request, or you are called an idiot when one is asked to provide proof? I understand that there are people out there who have a need to feel special and or superior to others, but in your case at least hide your pictures from the rest of us. Because between looking at your snaps and the claims you make you have zero credibility. But lets say you are right and I'm wrong and I really just don t understand it. I asked you to provide at least one example so that at least I can learn something new. What was your response to that? That you are out of here. I thank you for that.

Edited on Apr 08, 2017 at 04:51 PM · View previous versions



Apr 08, 2017 at 11:52 AM
savingspaces
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p.4 #12 · Question about portraits with M4/3


millsart wrote:
I'm a pretty poor hack of a guitar player (but I do enjoy it as a hobby)

I just got a Fender David Gilmour custom shop 'black strat", which is about as close to perfection (for that style of guitar) as you can get.

I sure as heck can't play "Comfortably Numb" as well as Mr. Gilmour himself, or even a bunch of people posting Youtube videos

The guitar doesn't make me a better player, and the guitar doesn't hold me back either

It was simply a choice to buy it, because I wanted it. There is no your not good enough so you
...Show more

If you are directing your post towards me, i never meant to imply that one should not buy what ever they want - after all they are not using my money, so I could care less. I just have a soft spot for people who are condescending and feel superior to others. Now, if you can produce, I will give credit. But usually these are snap shot shooters and all they do is yack. He has been doing this for years.

Otherwise I agree 100% with your post - it is your money, spend and use what ever pleases you.

The end product is ALL that matters to me. No matter the equipment. All one needs to do is look at the top rated IPPA award winners.

Those IPhone shots are superior to what I could ever hack up, no matter how much $$$ I would throw at the gear.

PS: I love David Gilmour's music



Apr 08, 2017 at 04:48 PM
Makten
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p.4 #13 · Question about portraits with M4/3


savingspaces wrote:
...your snaps look like it could have been taken with any camera.


That really came from the right mouth.



Apr 09, 2017 at 06:47 AM
savingspaces
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p.4 #14 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Makten wrote:
That really came from the right mouth.


Indeed - let's see just one shot that backs your claim. I have an open mind. Here to learn.



Apr 09, 2017 at 09:30 AM
Makten
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p.4 #15 · Question about portraits with M4/3


savingspaces wrote:
Indeed - let's see just one shot that backs your claim. I have an open mind. Here to learn.


What claim? That I can see a difference between colors of different sensors?

First of all; why would I want to "help" someone repeatedly acting like a dickhead, trying to insult people that offer their opinion on a topic started by a third person? It's very clear that you don't want to learn. You already know that you can't see any difference and then projecting your own shallow mind onto others.
Second; there are links to several tests in this thread that shows a significant difference in colors between sensors. If that's not enough, nothing will be.

Now go out and practice with that camera of yours. Because you seriously have a lot to learn.



Apr 09, 2017 at 11:50 AM
savingspaces
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p.4 #16 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Makten wrote:
What claim? That I can see a difference between colors of different sensors?

First of all; why would I want to "help" someone repeatedly acting like a dickhead, trying to insult people that offer their opinion on a topic started by a third person? It's very clear that you don't want to learn. You already know that you can't see any difference and then projecting your own shallow mind onto others.
Second; there are links to several tests in this thread that shows a significant difference in colors between sensors. If that's not enough, nothing will be.

Now go out and
...Show more

So that is your answer to me asking you to provide examples? I maybe a dickhead to you, but you are a condescending narcissist, who is clearly a snap shot shooter. And you are telling me that I need practice?

Provide 1 example that has better colors from your camera, than ANY of BobbyTan's results. You may think that I don't want to learn, but you should still provide some proof. Because so far that is ALL you have ever done. Show me your better colors from your sony cameras. How hard is that? Why are you avoiding it? You could shut me up.

This is the issue - you are making claims like you are all that. Talk is cheap. Produce a decent picture. That is photography - gear head talk never made anyone a great photographer.

While we agree on "ME" needing more practice, but that YOU would tell someone that is extremely funny. Do you really believe that your snap shots are any good?

You would make a great comedian. You are making me laugh.



Apr 09, 2017 at 02:13 PM
MAubrey
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p.4 #17 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Time to close up guys.


Apr 09, 2017 at 04:11 PM
ajamils
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p.4 #18 · Question about portraits with M4/3


Savingspaces, you need to chill out and please stop posting on this thread. We all get it, you love m43 format and will defend it no matter what. Unfortunately, that is pretty typical of m43 users. They think that m43 is the holy grail of systems and if anyone disagrees they become aggressive. A common occurrence on DPr forums.

The purpose of this thread wasn't whether one format can take good pictures or not. All current cameras can take excellent pictures. Even the 1" RX cameras can take pictures that will put m43 or APS-C to shame but that's beside the point.

Pleae read my original post again and understand what this thread was about.



Apr 09, 2017 at 05:08 PM
pr4photos
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p.4 #19 · Question about portraits with M4/3


I have a GX8, and also a Nikon D800 and D750

In practical terms for me, as a professional photographer, I love using the GX8, and if the iso is kept low, the quality is good enough for my clients. I love the size of it, I love the small lenses, and I love the articulating rear screen.
The downside of m43 is that is can't cope with higher iso's. Yes, I am spoilt by having a D750 that can produce images at 12800 that are useable by my clients, but thats where I need to go sometimes, and when I head in that direction the GX8 cannot go past about 2500iso and be useable for me or my clients - good enough for social media but not for printed output against any of my competitors



Apr 09, 2017 at 05:33 PM
savingspaces
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p.4 #20 · Question about portraits with M4/3


ajamils wrote:
Savingspaces, you need to chill out and please stop posting on this thread. We all get it, you love m43 format and will defend it no matter what. Unfortunately, that is pretty typical of m43 users. They think that m43 is the holy grail of systems and if anyone disagrees they become aggressive. A common occurrence on DPr forums.

The purpose of this thread wasn't whether one format can take good pictures or not. All current cameras can take excellent pictures. Even the 1" RX cameras can take pictures that will put m43 or APS-C to shame but that's beside
...Show more

You are misreading what I am saying. I am not "defending" M4/3. Who would ever think "that m43 is the holy grail of systems". That is funny. My issue is that those who put the system "down" like it isn't good enough for them, are always snap shot shooters. The gear is not the weak link. All one needs to do is look at their pictures. Instead of complaining about the gear, they need to look at their lack of skills. And I am going to include you in that group as well. While I have only seen that one picture you posted, it was clear to me that it isn't M4/3 in your case. What I find interesting is that none of you are man enough to admit that you are the weak link. I have named 2 names - "kwalsh" and "BobbyTan". If the system is capable of producing results like theirs, it should take a rocket scientist to figure out what is going on. And lastly, and I can only speak for myself, I don't give a rat's ass what anyone else is using. All I care about is the end result. But when I see BS I tend to point it out. Of course nobody wants to admit being wrong.



Apr 09, 2017 at 06:52 PM
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