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Archive 2016 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

Fred Miranda
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

It looks like the Zeiss Batis 18mm f/2.8 lens (just like the Batis 85/1.8) was designed by Tamron. The lens design looks identical. See here:

http://egami.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2016-11-07

Top (Tamron Patent) | Bottom (Batis 18/2.8)

Top (Tamron Patent) | Bottom (Batis 18/2.8)

Nov 11, 2016 at 10:55 AM

GMPhotography
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

Kind of weird in a way. You would think designed by Zeiss built by Tamron because the have AF capabilities that Zeiss does not have.

So I would assume than Zeiss makes the optics and Tamron does the production because it has Zeiss name plate. Given the technology today with production facilities it really does not matter exactly where it is built.

Nov 11, 2016 at 11:13 AM

mogul
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

Tamron, Zeiss, and Sony are all in bed together, sort of like GM and their different car lines. I wouldn't be surprised if Cosina is lying at the foot of the bed.

Nov 11, 2016 at 11:24 AM

MJKoski
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

Nasty Pentax, where is Tamron 18/2.8 Zeiss for my K-1? They already rebadged Tamron 15-30 zooms as Pentax.

Nov 11, 2016 at 11:30 AM

bjornthun
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

MJKoski wrote:
Nasty Pentax, where is Tamron 18/2.8 Zeiss for my K-1? They already rebadged Tamron 15-30 zooms as Pentax.

The Batis 18/2.8 has a short back focal distance and can't be used on a DSLR.

Nov 11, 2016 at 11:32 AM

AGeoJO
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

That the Batis 18mm was a Tamron designed and manufactured by Tamron doesn't bother me much, if anything. But it would piss me off and immensely at that if Tamron sells their own brand of the exact same lens for 50% off

Nov 11, 2016 at 11:38 AM

GMPhotography
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

mogul wrote:
Tamron, Zeiss, and Sony are all in bed together, sort of like GM and their different car lines. I wouldn't be surprised if Cosina is lying at the foot of the bed.

In todays world with all the high tech production and computer design it all means very little. To me what really counts is the glass itself and the coatings

Nov 11, 2016 at 11:46 AM

Parariss
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

I'm less surprised by this than I am that there are so many designs for each given lens focal length/aperture in the first place.

Seems like there would be one, computer-generated optimum combination of lens elements that yielded the best results (with a slight difference on the back end for mount type; plus, maybe some specialty versions like extra low coma (at the expense of something else) astrophotography models). I do understand that there are some design priorities that have to be balanced, but even considering that the number of market-viable possibilities seems rather finite. The fact that after all these decades they keep coming up with new designs that do basically the same thing yet are somehow sufficiently different that they can patent them is to me the surprising part.

But what do I know; it also astonishes me that even with today's computer-controlled manufacturing technology we still have so much copy-to-copy variance.

Tamron... Zeiss... Whatever -- if it's good, I'll shoot it!

Nov 11, 2016 at 11:56 AM

ecarlino
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

GMPhotography wrote:
Kind of weird in a way. You would think designed by Zeiss built by Tamron because the have AF capabilities that Zeiss does not have.

So I would assume than Zeiss makes the optics and Tamron does the production because it has Zeiss name plate. Given the technology today with production facilities it really does not matter exactly where it is built.

i don't think it's weird at all - what i think is weird is that somehow people thought the Germans were some sort of magicians - it really comes down to a corporation making a marketing decision and who their target audience is and how much they want to charge.

it's sort of like that movie THE RIGHT STUFF - great line: "NO, Mr. President, OUR Germans are better than their Germans". Tamron didn't release lower IQ lenses b/c their engineers sucked, it was because that was the customer and price point niche they sought to target.

Zeiss has focused on the high end and probably doesn't have the resources to design (all / any?) lenses and simply puts together a list of specifications that they want out of a lens and have someone else design it - not a big deal - it's all computer driven now anyhow - so it's probably just taking advantage of the infrastructure / excess capacity that Tamron has.

Perhaps 100 yrs ago there was some sort of edge that Zeiss had internally, but my guess is now that there are few 'advances' as far as lens formula other than using software to optimize for performance and cost. Certainly there have been advances in coatings and machining (e.g. GM) - but as far as designing a new lens, i think it's probably a fairly standardized industry at this point and it's really just about figuring out how to balance performance, size, weight and $$ and the computer does most of that work. in fact, without knowing anything really about how it's done, my guess is that most of the advances have actually been in the software to develop / optimize lenses and if Tamron has some advanced software they invested in, it would make sense for them to farm that out to help cover those costs - who knows, Zeiss may have even invested in it or paid for part of the cost committed to using Tamron so Tamron felt good making the investment.

zeiss is really a marketing company more than anything.

it's sort of like Ford vs Mercedes - i'm 100% sure Ford could make a car as nice as Mercedes - it's not like the engineers in Germany are that much better than Detroit - but the companies are focused on 2 different market segments.

Nov 11, 2016 at 11:57 AM

GMPhotography
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

One thing we have to remember if that lens says made in Germany than their is a certain percentage of the work that is done in Germany. Now if it says made in Japan with a Zeiss name on it all bets are off but from memory their is a law in Germany about made in Germany and a certain percentage has to be made in Germany. I think its 60 percent. But from my Leica days i knew this to be true

Nov 11, 2016 at 12:14 PM

MJKoski
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

AGeoJO wrote:
That the Batis 18mm was a Tamron designed and manufactured by Tamron doesn't bother me much, if anything. But it would piss me off and immensely at that if Tamron sells their own brand of the exact same lens for 50% off

Hehehe, That is exactly what Ricoh did with Tamron. Tamron zooms with Pentax-logo cost over 50% more here in Finland. Welcome to the club

Nov 11, 2016 at 12:54 PM

MrTMan
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

GMPhotography wrote:
In todays world with all the high tech production and computer design it all means very little. To me what really counts is the glass itself and the coatings

Exactly. All I care about is that the Batis 18 is a great lens that takes great pictures. Doesn't really matter to me who designed it. I do value the Zeiss badge, though, as I presume it still means something, as far as a minimum level of quality that's inherent in the glass or coatings -- and also because I know that Zeiss-branded lenses seem to have good build quality and quality control, supported by great customer service.

Nov 11, 2016 at 12:54 PM

azenis
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

Zeiss hardly manufactures anything by itself (Germany) anymore, at least in the 35mm field. The last MiG Zeiss lens for 35mm I believe was the ZM 85mm F2 and that's discontinued.

So, it's not surprising that they bought a good design off Tamron.

Nov 11, 2016 at 01:04 PM

CBokeh
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

When I look at the Batis vs. Tamron 85s, I see 11 v. 13 elements in 8 v. 9 groups. Other than the first lens group, the two designs seem pretty different. Tamron may be building the Batis, and it may even be a Tamron design, but the lens diagrams published by the manufacturers display differing solutions.

I realize too that the Batis is designed for mirrorless and the Tamron for cameras with mirror boxes, so I'm not sure if that's why the diagrams are so different. I am not a lens expert by any means, but I remember someone who was an expert stating that even when designs look similar at a glance, small differences can have fairly large effects in output.

I looked at many examples on Flickr made by the Tamron and the Batis. In the end, I felt the Batis had a drawing style that more appealed to me, particularly for portraits. Nothing against the Tamron, I just felt there was a visible difference in rendering.

Nov 11, 2016 at 04:46 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

CBokeh wrote:
When I look at the Batis vs. Tamron 85s, I see 11 v. 13 elements in 8 v. 9 groups. Other than the first lens group, the two designs seem pretty different. Tamron may be building the Batis, and it may even be a Tamron design, but the lens diagrams published by the manufacturers display differing solutions.

I realize too that the Batis is designed for mirrorless and the Tamron for cameras with mirror boxes, so I'm not sure if that's why the diagrams are so different. I am not a lens expert by any means, but I remember someone...Show more →

The Batis 85/1.8 (Mirrorless) and Tamron 85/1.8 Di (DSLR) optical designs are completely different. My comment was related to the existing Tamron patent displaying the exact same Batis 85/1.8 formula.

See below: Tamron patent (top), Batis 85 (bottom)

Nov 11, 2016 at 05:13 PM

realVivek
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

I am convinced that the blue label is slapped on most lenses to increase the price tag.

It is all Cosina or Tamron or XYZ.

Nov 11, 2016 at 05:19 PM

DavidBM
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

realVivek wrote:
I am convinced that the blue label is slapped on most lenses to increase the price tag.

It is all Cosina or Tamron or XYZ.

Depends what you mean.
The blue label has the effect of making people believe in the possibility of the lens being genuinely premium.
This means you can allow production costs to go up a bit with better build, better glass, etc and charge enough extra with smaller unit sales to make a profit.

I'm sure Tamron or Cosina-Voigtlander or whoever could easily design and manufacture lenses as good as Zeiss. But they might not get the sales to make it profitable, so they aim at larger markets (complicated zooms that sell well, or slightly less premium primes). Branding as Zeiss makes niche primes that some of us love commercially possible.

Nov 11, 2016 at 07:05 PM

DavidBM
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

freaklikeme wrote:
Cool. Then maybe we'll get one of these guys as the next Batis.

Please give us a 180 with close focus that's smaller than a 70-200!
I guess that means no 1:1 please as that would increase the size a lot over 1:2...

Nov 11, 2016 at 07:08 PM

realVivek
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

DavidBM wrote:
Depends what you mean.
The blue label has the effect of making people believe in the possibility of the lens being genuinely premium.
This means you can allow production costs to go up a bit with better build, better glass, etc and charge enough extra with smaller unit sales to make a profit.

I'm sure Tamron or Cosina-Voigtlander or whoever could easily design and manufacture lenses as good as Zeiss. But they might not get the sales to make it profitable, so they aim at larger markets (complicated zooms that sell well, or slightly less premium primes). Branding as Zeiss makes niche primes...Show more →

Semantics. Slice it as you wish, it still isn't the real thing but costs the same.

Nov 11, 2016 at 07:47 PM

DavidBM
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Batis 18mm f/2.8 designed by Tamron?

realVivek wrote:
Semantics. Slice it as you wish, it still isn't the real thing but costs the same.

The real thing is the performance and the build. The 18 performs better than any other 18. You got value for your dollar. What more do you want? I want Zeiss to give me the best performance I can afford - and I don't care where they build it or where the ray traces are done (so long as the workers get treated fairly)

Nov 11, 2016 at 10:48 PM

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