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Archive 2016 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M
  
 
Jeff Kott
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M


Steve Spencer wrote:
They all three look very good, but I would rank them 90 AA, 90 Macro Elmar, 90 CV APO, but the differences are small--to my eyes at least. Thanks very much for the test.

Yes, that was my conclusion. The largest I print is 16"x24" and I'm not sure you'd see much difference between them in a print that size.

Clearly, the CV 90/3.5 is a bargain if someone is looking for a small 90 for landscape use.

Also, I feel that any comments about the 90 Macro Elmar and CV 90 not performing well on modern sensors are a bad rap.




Nov 06, 2016 at 10:04 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M


Jeff Kott wrote:
Yes, that was my conclusion. The largest I print is 16"x24" and I'm not sure you'd see much difference between them in a print that size.

Clearly, the CV 90/3.5 is a bargain if someone is looking for a small 90 for landscape use.

Also, I feel that any comments about the 90 Macro Elmar and CV 90 not performing well on modern sensors are a bad rap.



I agree there is a good case for each lens. You can get a remarkable bargain with the CV APO and very nearly the performance of the two more expensive lenses. The 90 macro Elmar is by far the smallest and you get a very competent macro lens to boot. The 90 cron AA has a much faster aperture and the best performance, so even though it is more expensive you get a very versatile lens that does many many things quite well.
Nov 06, 2016 at 10:28 AM
retrofocus
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M


Jeff Kott wrote:
Also, I feel that any comments about the 90 Macro Elmar and CV 90 not performing well on modern sensors are a bad rap.



+1. Another example of the outstanding Leica 90/2.8 version I performance on the Sony A7R sensor. Taken at f/8, 1/160 sec, ISO 400 handheld.

http://martinbluhm.zenfolio.com/img/s12/v179/p333207123-5.jpg



Nov 06, 2016 at 11:34 AM
uhoh7
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M


Jeff Kott wrote:
Yes, that was my conclusion. The largest I print is 16"x24" and I'm not sure you'd see much difference between them in a print that size.

Clearly, the CV 90/3.5 is a bargain if someone is looking for a small 90 for landscape use.

Also, I feel that any comments about the 90 Macro Elmar and CV 90 not performing well on modern sensors are a bad rap.



Nice little test The AA Cron clearly well ahead to me. CV last, without doubt. However it's one test, and we know tiny variations in focus can do things. It's too bad you did not have a 240 handy to shoot them all with the same scene on that body.

I don't hear anyone claiming certain lenses "don't perform well on modern sensors". What I hear is people saying some lenses are working differently on different sensor designs. This is way beyond speculation at this point.

What throws a wrench in the works is the variation, for example between the 50 cron v4, which is quite good on basically all Sonys, and the 50 Lux asph, which is not. We also know that there are multiple aspects of performance affected, especially background render, in the long lenses, by the various sensor designs.

Sony has quite a gamut of sensors though, and while there are differences between them with say, 75 lux, the big issues we see with a ZM 35/2 etc, are consistent. What do they have in common? We know, the thick stack.

That's just life. Optics matter. Both in the lens and in front of the sensor. My own criteria for a good body is simple: be as true to the lens design as possible. But that's only me, and there are lots of things to like about the A7r2, which is a fantastic camera, even if it struggles to be true to the best small lens line we have.
Henning wrote:
I have to qualify my remark about the 50's because I haven't tried all. I have 5 right now, from an old Nickel Elmar through to the 50/1.4 ASPH and a Noctilux f/1. The Noctilux doesn't matter since it's never sharp in the corners anyways, but the 50/1.4 is definitely better on the M240 than the A7Rii, as is the dual range Summicron. As for the 90's: I tested them to my satisfaction, and right now, since I don't have the 90AA anymore, I mostly use the 90 Elmarit-M and the pre-ASPH Summicron (which is of course not close to...Show more →

Does anyone really doubt this is true, in general, at this stage? The Sonys do seem to like the AA 90 quite a bit, but so often it's the biggest heaviest M glass the A7 likes best, 50 cron is exception, I agree.

What's useful and interesting is to see the same lens on a M sensor and the Sony sensor. We should draft Gary, as he has both, and quite a few do. Still going to be variables, be the more we see the better informed we become.

Sure we all have our preferences, but reality is in there somewhere

Here is the CV 90/3.5 on the M9, shot shortly after I found the lens:

L1020030 by unoh7, on Flickr


L1020032 by unoh7, on Flickr

Both at f/8 (could be 5.6) and another:

Sun Valley by unoh7, on Flickr

Now, on a Stock, un-modified A7:

DSC08595 by unoh7, on Flickr


DSC08557 by unoh7, on Flickr

These could be at F/4.

Now M9 at F/3.5:

f/3.5 by unoh7, on Flickr

Frankly I would be shocked if the ME 90 did not kill this lens at F/4 on an M body. Those little trees at a mile or more tell performance pretty well, though focus is still a variable.

Here is better F/4 shot:

L1004739 by unoh7, on Flickr

and now the same CV90 "flat out" at 5.6 on m9:

L1004787 by unoh7, on Flickr

These two shots say to me: Charlie, your copy is fine.

Now, Summarit 90 WO on Stock A7:

DSC08449 by unoh7, on Flickr

The Summarit should also be a good benchmark to judge the CV 90 and ME 90 against. F/8 on the M9 now:

L1004481 by unoh7, on Flickr

Again the long distance and clear air bring out everything. Shorten the reach and the lens appears flawless:

L1004511 by unoh7, on Flickr

No single shot should be the basis for opinion. But many long shots will tell a story pretty clearly. Both the ME 90 ad CV 90, by reputation, should beat the Summarit at f/5.6 or 8. My impression is the Summarit beats the CV 90 always at the same aperture. Now, that may be mistaken

Being wrong or trying to back up a feeling is good inspiration to shoot


Nov 06, 2016 at 01:13 PM
Jeff Kott
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M


uhoh7 wrote:
Nice little test The AA Cron clearly well ahead to me. CV last, without doubt. However it's one test, and we know tiny variations in focus can do things. It's too bad you did not have a 240 handy to shoot them all with the same scene on that body.

I don't hear anyone claiming certain lenses "don't perform well on modern sensors". What I hear is people saying some lenses are working differently on different sensor designs. This is way beyond speculation at this point.


I think if you read up in this thread, you'll see that it was said that the Macro Elmar does not perform well on the A7Rii. I don't have an A7Rii, but on my A7R I feel that the lens performs well, although not quite as well as the Cron AA, but to my eyes the differences in all three lenses are slight. My crops are obviously at 100% magnification, but at 50% magnification (which I feel is more indicative of what I would see in a large print), it's difficult to choose among the three lenses.


Nov 06, 2016 at 02:06 PM
freaklikeme
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M


In case anyone is still looking for this lens, there's one on the bay for a good price ($1332.66)...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-Elmar-M-90mm-f-4-Macro-Lens-/201735288380?hash=item2ef85c363c:g:P1UAAOSwa~BYQJ0R

He's also got the macro adapter with eyes for $225...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-Macro-ADAPT-M-14409-90mm-F-4-Macro-Elmar-/201728459621?hash=item2ef7f40365:g:KYYAAOSwj85YN1sl

I bought his Summicron 75 off of him and he's nice guy with good clean glass.
Dec 04, 2016 at 05:10 PM
nicolab
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M


I have a question for you Leica M 90 macro Elmar v1 owners:
I've found a very good opportunity to buy second hand version 1 Macro Elmar.
Is it possible to use the lens collapsed in combination with the new leica macro adapter?
I wonder if is possible to change aperture when lens is collapsed and I wonder if is possible to focus from ,8 to infinity with the new adapter always in place.

(example on Sony A7 camera)

20287813078_b646e1d7ec by Nicola B., su Flickr
Dec 07, 2016 at 09:02 AM
rscheffler
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M


I have the v1 but not the new macro adapter. My understanding is the v1 lens will work with the adapter and allow 80cm to infinity focus when retracted, just that the aperture ring is smaller in diameter and likely difficult to adjust. The other challenge is that the front of the v1 lens rotates freely when it's retracted. You'll have to extend it to change aperture, then push it back down again.

One tradeoff of the new design's larger aperture ring is that the standard Leica 12575 clip-on hood will not reverse mount over the lens. I'm not sure if it will even if only partially retracted. And this lens does benefit from use of a hood - I highly recommended you use one. It doesn't have to be the Leica one, of course, but make sure it's a fairly deep hood intended for telephoto lenses to get maximum light blocking.
Dec 07, 2016 at 03:04 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M


Jeff Kott wrote:
Yes, that was my conclusion. The largest I print is 16"x24" and I'm not sure you'd see much difference between them in a print that size.

Clearly, the CV 90/3.5 is a bargain if someone is looking for a small 90 for landscape use.

Also, I feel that any comments about the 90 Macro Elmar and CV 90 not performing well on modern sensors are a bad rap.

Thanks for these tests Jeff.
I have tried to swap my 90 AA for smaller lenses but can't because it's so outstanding. It's already great from wide open but starting at f/4, I can't find a lens performing better than at center, mid-zone and extreme corner. (even the SL 90/2 APO)
The colors and micro-contrast and resolution (at 40MP) are the best I've seen in a 85/90mm lens.
Jan 27, 2022 at 01:48 PM
Goodrich
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M


It’s surprisingly good, yes, although I think that there is a tiny bit of colour fringing in extreme circumstances.

I like the macro lens for its lightness and gentle rendering.


Jan 27, 2022 at 02:04 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M


Some 90/4 Macro photos from yesterday. The birds were at around 90-100cm @ f/8 (they move so quickly it's tough to nail exact focus wide open) and images have been cropped a fair amount, probably to about 135mm equivalent. Other images are in the f/8 range too.











I also have the 90AA and use it less frequently. Most of my walkabout photography is stopped down natural and urban landscapes at medium to far distances where I'm not concerned about bokeh character, etc. Therefore the 90 Macro is the preferred daylight lens for its small size and low weight. It's technically not as good as the AA, but on 24MP the differences probably less noticeable. It does have higher CA and IMO looks less 'transparent' than the AA.

But I will bring the AA instead when I think I'll probably do more bokeh-centric work, such as below (with the AA):

I often prefer the AA stopped down to f/2.5 or 2.8.
Jan 27, 2022 at 03:45 PM
RustyBug
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M


Fred Miranda wrote:
I have tried to swap my 90 AA for smaller lenses but can't because it's so outstanding.

I was smitten by this lens about a decade ago, when I first saw it in that old, epic "3D" thread.

Not sure if it'll ever wind up in my bag, but ... pretty sweet stuff, imo. Easy to understand why you hang on to it.


Jan 28, 2022 at 06:46 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M


rscheffler wrote:
Some 90/4 Macro photos from yesterday. The birds were at around 90-100cm @ f/8 (they move so quickly it's tough to nail exact focus wide open) and images have been cropped a fair amount, probably to about 135mm equivalent. Other images are in the f/8 range too.

https://i.postimg.cc/pr0FLJcR/20220126_0052.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/02QSHhrQ/20220126_0069.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/kMw8s7Jz/20220126_0097.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/cLtndYRG/20220126_0130.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/SRQ94vrg/20220126-0140.jpg

I also have the 90AA and use it less frequently. Most of my walkabout photography is stopped down natural and urban landscapes at medium to far distances where I'm not concerned about bokeh character, etc. Therefore the 90 Macro is the preferred daylight lens for its small size and low weight. It's technically...Show more →

Wonderful shots and excellent use of both lenses. I have been debating whether to sell my 90 f/4 macro and get the new Voigtlander 90 f/2.8 APO and your shots are making this decision harder. I also have the 90 f/2.4 Summarit, that I think is definitely going to be sold. I don't use 90mm all that much with my Leica M, so I hate having so much money tied up in the focal length.
Jan 28, 2022 at 09:55 AM
rscheffler
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M


Thanks Steve! Yes, it's not a clear-cut decision. I thought the VM would be another home run release and an easy replacement for most other 90s. But unfortunately its mid-zone weakness makes it a less universal solution, IMO. It's probably ideal if one doesn't prioritize across-frame performance. Since my 90 Macro and AA were bought long ago and are user copies, rather than minty, I'll likely stick with the combo rather than replace with the VM. Who knows, if I need to free up some money, that might still happen, but not for now.
Jan 28, 2022 at 01:39 PM
Desmolicious
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M


Hmm, I haven't used my 90mm F4 Macro in years... it is so small it is forgotten in my bag.
Jan 28, 2022 at 02:39 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M


rscheffler wrote:
Thanks Steve! Yes, it's not a clear-cut decision. I thought the VM would be another home run release and an easy replacement for most other 90s. But unfortunately its mid-zone weakness makes it a less universal solution, IMO. It's probably ideal if one doesn't prioritize across-frame performance. Since my 90 Macro and AA were bought long ago and are user copies, rather than minty, I'll likely stick with the combo rather than replace with the VM. Who knows, if I need to free up some money, that might still happen, but not for now.

How do it compare to the Zeiss 85/4 ZM?
Jan 28, 2022 at 03:45 PM
Jeff Kott
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M


Fred Miranda wrote:
How do it compare to the Zeiss 85/4 ZM?

John Hinkey compared the two. To paraphrase, I think his conclusion was the 85/4 may be “technically” slightly better, but not enough to offset the increase in size, etc.
Jan 28, 2022 at 04:18 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M


Fred Miranda wrote:
How do it compare to the Zeiss 85/4 ZM?


I've only briefly used the ZM and that was about 10 years ago. I have not been able to compare them side by side. As already mentioned, there probably isn't a big optical difference. The Leica does have a bit of noticeable CA but that cleans up in post. It might also have worse veiling flare resistance - I haven't yet used a Leica 90 M that was good in this regard. I do prefer its collapsible design, slightly closer 80cm MFD and general UX.
Jan 28, 2022 at 06:26 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M


Jeff Kott wrote:
John Hinkey compared the two. To paraphrase, I think his conclusion was the 85/4 may be “technically” slightly better, but not enough to offset the increase in size, etc.



---------------------------------------------

rscheffler wrote:
I've only briefly used the ZM and that was about 10 years ago. I have not been able to compare them side by side. As already mentioned, there probably isn't a big optical difference. The Leica does have a bit of noticeable CA but that cleans up in post. It might also have worse veiling flare resistance - I haven't yet used a Leica 90 M that was good in this regard. I do prefer its collapsible design, slightly closer 80cm MFD and general UX.

Thanks for the info on that. I've shot with the ZM 85/4 for many years but only adapted to the Sony.
It's a lens that was able to match the Loxia 85/2.4 in terms of resolution and contrast at f/6.3 and smaller apertures but didn't do quite as good in regards to flare resistance and CA in comparison. I keep hearing great things about the Leica 90/4.
Jan 28, 2022 at 06:33 PM
helimat
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Leica 90/4 Macro-Elmar-M


Steve Spencer wrote:
Wonderful shots and excellent use of both lenses. I have been debating whether to sell my 90 f/4 macro and get the new Voigtlander 90 f/2.8 APO and your shots are making this decision harder. I also have the 90 f/2.4 Summarit, that I think is definitely going to be sold. I don't use 90mm all that much with my Leica M, so I hate having so much money tied up in the focal length.

If you decide to sell a 90, drop me a line.


Jan 29, 2022 at 12:21 PM
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