Fred Miranda wrote:
Makes sense David. Still, I'm stubborn and want to see real world tests with these filters.
I will throw in the Zeiss 28/2 ZF into the mix when comparing the ZM with filter and no filter.
There is no perfect 28mm prime for the A7RII and any solution has to blow away what I get with my 16-35/4@ 28mm, which is flat-field and actually very good at f/6.3 across the field. I'm hoping the ZM 28/2.8 will be at least a little better with more micro-contrast for a very small 28mm prime alternative.
Hi Fred,
The Leica R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2 may be about the best 28mm lens to get sharp into the corners of an A7r or an A7rII. I am keeping mine.
Below are 2 images taken with my a7r and the lens set to f16, not to get the focus into the corners but to hold focus to the rear of the images. Even getting into diffraction the lens holds up well.
Yea question is it's not exactly a good cheap test to try. I think it's 2200.00 but I was thinking Leica to. If I spent that much , I would just go for the R 28mm 2.8. I just read Phillips or Bastian review of the Ultron it does have some big field curvature but he liked it. I actually wanted to try it for a long time. Maybe once I get my filter I could rent it for a test. Not sure the same ZM 35 filter would work but might be worth a test.
Steve Spencer wrote:
I think the best bet for a small lens might be the Leica M 28 elmarit that has been redesigned for digital. That lens like the ZM 35 f/1.4 already is pretty good without a front end filter as Fred's tests showed earlier. That lens also has 10 aperture blades so it ought to have nice sunstars that rival the ZM and Loxia lenses.
I also think that the 28 lux ASPH is even better and in my tests looks awfully good from about f/4 without any filter, but that lens is in a whole different price category. If I remember rightly the Leica M 28 cron did not do quite as well without a front end filter in Fred's tests, so the one to think about may be the new M 28 elmarit....Show more →
I've rented the latest Leica Elmarit-M 28mm f/2.8 (optimized for digital) and tested on the A7RII. Field curvature at infinity made it impractical for landscapes even stepped down.
I'm really hoping the ZM 28/2.8+filter could be the answer and will be optimum between f/5.6 and f/8. It is just as small and well-built as the Sonnar 50/1.5C. I will test it with the Proxar 1m, PCX 1.5m and PCX 1.5m reversed.
According to @HaruhikoT 's simulation, the PCX 1.5 reversed is like a 1.3m filter. (So, 1m, 1.3m and 1.5m)
If the front end filter can do wonders on astigmatism and make it look similar or better to the above at f/6.3, f/7.1 or f/8, I'm happy because I really like the rendering.
The Leica R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2 may be about the best 28mm lens to get sharp into the corners of an A7r or an A7rII. I am keeping mine.
Below are 2 images taken with my a7r and the lens set to f16, not to get the focus into the corners but to hold focus to the rear of the images. Even getting into diffraction the lens holds up well.
Rich
Thanks for the samples Rich. I'm trying to resist the Elmarit-R 28/2.8 but you don't help!
Interesting approach correcting the ray angle problem via an element in front of the lens. Seems like something that could turn into a product. Custom made for best performance for specific lenses.
GMPhotography wrote:
There is a ZM 25mm as well . Let's see 12,18,25,35. That works. Lol
Not sure which one is better the 25 or 28
The ZM 25 is a technically better lens across the frame at wider apertures (on a Leica). I've briefly shot it and the 28. I thought the 28 had good Zeiss character but was a bit disappointing for technical applications unless well stopped down. Being that I'm an RF shooter and not Sony, these results with the ZM 28 (the 28 Ultron was weaker, lower contrast and exhibited focus shift), put my focus on Leica's 28s. These all seem very good on the M cameras, but as we know, are suboptimal on Sonys. If the ZM 28 doesn't improve with the PC lens, then I'd probably look at SLR mount 28s instead, unless willing to spend the money on a Leica M 28. It would be interesting to see if the PC lens can also fix the problems with Leica's M 28s on Sony...
rscheffler wrote:
The ZM 25 is a technically better lens across the frame at wider apertures (on a Leica). I've briefly shot it and the 28. I thought the 28 had good Zeiss character but was a bit disappointing for technical applications unless well stopped down. Being that I'm an RF shooter and not Sony, these results with the ZM 28 (the 28 Ultron was weaker, lower contrast and exhibited focus shift), put my focus on Leica's 28s. These all seem very good on the M cameras, but as we know, are suboptimal on Sonys. If the ZM 28 doesn't improve with the PC lens, then I'd probably look at SLR mount 28s instead, unless willing to spend the money on a Leica M 28. It would be interesting to see if the PC lens can also fix the problems with Leica's M 28s on Sony......Show more →
That's exactly my plan Ron.
I will test the ZM 28 with PCX filter against the 28/2 ZF.
If I really wanted a high performing 25 lens for the A7RII, my choice would be the Batis 25/2.
Interesting approach correcting the ray angle problem via an element in front of the lens. Seems like something that could turn into a product. Custom made for best performance for specific lenses.
-Tim
Looks good Tim. The Pentax 28/3.5 is also great choice. Is that my copy? I remember it had very good edges but not so great mid-field.
No, I still have your copy though. This one is slightly better, at least by my tests. Believe it or not, I paid $37 for this one and it was in mint condition.
I know you're looking for something that will have good sharpness across the frame at wider apertures. I really do hope that Zeiss comes through with a Loxia. A Loxia 28 to pair with my 21 would be a dream come true.
-Tim
Fred Miranda wrote:
Looks good Tim. The Pentax 28/3.5 is also great choice. Is that my copy? I remember it had very good edges but not so great mid-field.
tsdevine wrote:
No, I still have your copy though. This one is slightly better, at least by my tests. Believe it or not, I paid $37 for this one and it was in mint condition.
I know you're looking for something that will have good sharpness across the frame at wider apertures. I really do hope that Zeiss comes through with a Loxia. A Loxia 28 to pair with my 21 would be a dream come true.
-Tim
Wow, the copy I sold you was perfectly centered. I agree on the Loxia 28, it would be a great addition.
What is it about the 28mm focal length that seems to make it challenging to get really good lenses? There are readily available 21mm lenses that are stellar and 35mm lenses that are great, but precious few great 28mm lenses. Is it a hard focal length to design for some reason? I like the Leica 28 lux a lot (tho not its price) on the Sony but even its MTF is hardly the equal of many lenses at wider and narrower focal lengths. The Otus is likely best, but it is a monster in size and also pricey.
Luvwine wrote:
What is it about the 28mm focal length that seems to make it challenging to get really good lenses? There are readily available 21mm lenses that are stellar and 35mm lenses that are great, but precious few great 28mm lenses. Is it a hard focal length to design for some reason? I like the Leica 28 lux a lot (tho not its price) on the Sony but even its MTF is hardly the equal of many lenses at wider and narrower focal lengths. The Otus is likely best, but it is a monster in size and also pricey.
Nothing about the focal length that's difficult.
I think it's just that it's whack in the middle of most mid range AND wide range zooms where they do well, so its a harder sell as a prime. People will pay for a standard prime like a 35 or 50, or an extreme focal length, or a longer one wher they value speed. But a 28 is a harder sell, and there are no modern premium ones except Otus (and the recent Leica that doesn't play well on Sony). Other than that there are premium but old designs (e.g. ZE) or new budget (FE or Nikon G).
DavidBM wrote:
Nothing about the focal length that's difficult.
I think it's just that it's whack in the middle of most mid range AND wide range zooms where they do well, so its a harder sell as a prime. People will pay for a standard prime like a 35 or 50, or an extreme focal length, or a longer one wher they value speed. But a 28 is a harder sell, and there are no modern premium ones except Otus (and the recent Leica that doesn't play well on Sony). Other than that there are premium but old designs (e.g. ZE) or new budget (FE or Nikon G).
The 28/2 Leica does not play well on Sony, but the 28/1.4 Leica does and it is a modern design and a "premium" lens...Agreed that a Loxia 28 would be a great addition.
Luvwine wrote:
The 28/2 Leica does not play well on Sony, but the 28/1.4 Leica does and it is a modern design and a "premium" lens...Agreed that a Loxia 28 would be a great addition.
Interesting, I hadn't seen that it plays well on Sony. Cool. But maybe it's not premium: it's ultra premium or luxury! If Lloyd Chambers is to be believed, it has worse colour correction than Otus. But that's not surprising given their relatives sizes, which is partly but not wholly explained by flange distance.
But I think what most of us hanging out for a premium 28 option are looking for is something a bit slower; f2-2.8 with an up to date design with no compromises stopped down and an excellent central area wide open. I for one would trade size for wide open corners, but the Astro crowd won't, so not everyone can win....
Steve Spencer wrote:
I think that is a lot to expect. I think a more reasonable expectation is the ZM 35 f/1.4 will be optimal at f/5.6 and the ZM 28 f/2.8 will be as good at f/8 as it is in your samples at f/10, which I don't really see as optimal. For me I would settle for the filters just primarily working in closer in shooting, say 10m or less and getting performance in these close shots that rivals the lens on a Leica M240. Now that looks totally possible and that combined with good performance from f/5.6 or even f/6.3 as it is now leaves it as a much stronger lens....Show more →
Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic, but I'm taking in consideration the results posted by @HaruhikoT
Well, I'm now finally off work for 10 days for Christmas break here in Great Britain, and hope to have an opportunity to do a before and after comparison regards Zeiss 18, 25 & 28mm ZM lenses, and there proxar/ planoconvex correction lenses on and off. With all the talk about the ZM 28mm lately, I fell compelled now to test this one especially, so you can get a preview of what it will be like with the filter on/ off.
I will do two tests, infinite landscape with the camera tilted at a 30 degree angle (similar to how Fred posts his sample photos) and a close up set testing bokeh. I will try to do a field curvature test if I have the opportunity also.
Apologies this has not happened sooner, I simmply am at work throughout the week, and when I get off work, it's dark already. On the weekends, I usually am doing things with my wife and two young children, so getting time to do sample photos has been a challenge.
I've heard the weather will be nice on Boxing Day here in England, so I may try to get out to the park on that date with my tripod and lenses, and do some proper tests.
I have a website, and shall try to post full res samples on my smugmug webpage for everyone to digest.
And to top it off, I will try to get another video done, of this time me opening up the ZM 28mm lens in good light, so others can follow on to doing this if needed. It literllly takes less then half minute 😉
Very easy to undo if needed also.
So all this isn't a promise it will happen, but a statement saying I will try my best to do this for the community during my holiday break.
BTW, everyone have a happy holidays and merry christmas! 😇
candreyo wrote:
And to top it off, I will try to get another video done, of this time me opening up the ZM 28mm lens in good light, so others can follow on to doing this if needed. It literllly takes less then half minute 😉
Very easy to undo if needed also.
BTW, everyone have a happy holidays and merry christmas! 😇
Would be great if you could also manage to slide in a video for the ZM 35 1.4, camera spanner will arrive next week
