p.61 #1 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
fishjump wrote:
Harry, 70% of my sales are B&W, of which most are long exposure desert/seascapes. Although I doubt my customers can see the subtle differences, I can.
If I was doing this as a hobby, I may well have a different view.
Tell me about your printing process for your B&W work. I find the image processing and printing having a much higher impact on the final print than the original captured image.
Jan 27, 2017 at 01:48 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.61 #2 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
Matt Grum wrote:
When talking about dynamic range it's important to distinguish between DR at base ISO and DR in low light.
DR in low light is determined by sensitivity. In theory sensitivity (and thus low light DR) increases with sensor size in a predictable way but that assumes you use the same f-stop. The problem is medium format lenses are not available in the same f-stops (and require stopping down further to maintain DOF) so it is very difficult to realise this advantage (unless you are able to adapt lenses designed for 35mm, which remains to be seen).
DR at base ISO is determined by FWC and read noise. Unlike with sensitivity there is no simple rule of thumb you can apply to relate it to sensor size, it is more strongly related to the sensor technology. If you think forward to the end of 2017 I would certainly expect there to be something new from Sony or Nikon that could beat the GFX for [sensor] resolution, dynamic range or both....Show more →
So, the Nikon has a small advantage over the Sony and Pentax K1 in max DR, but the Pentax 645Z has about that same advantage over the Nikon D810. The Canon clearly lags far behind. The Canon does, however, have basically the same resolution as the Pentax 645Z, and a small resolution advantage over the Sony and a bit bigger one over the Pentax K1 and the Nikon. This site seems to be taking a legitimate approach to measuring DR, but I could be missing something and would really like to hear your views about it.
Together I think these data support my contention above. I am sure at some point the FF 35mm sensors will pull ahead of the 51MP Sony sensor in all these miniMF cameras, but I am also sure that there will be new miniMF sensors that will again best those 35mm FF sensors.
p.61 #4 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
Well if those DR numbers are real...then from my viewpoint the 11.xx values are basically the same as we'd be splitting hairs to tell any differences in real world photos. Then it comes down to MP where the miniMF sensor has an advantage over the Sony / Nikon offerings.
The next Sony ( A7R3 ) would be interesting as I'm sure the MP will be increased and it's anyone's guess where the DR will fall.
p.61 #5 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
fishjump wrote:
Harry, I use Nevada Print Works out go LV for all my client work.
Do you have any images posted taken with the Pentax. Would love to see the quality. I know its totally different viewing a small image versus a large print, but it might provide some info on the difference between the Pentax images and one from the A7R2.
They rate what they call Photo DR at base ISO (or max DR) as follows:
Pentax 645Z - 11.75
Nikon D810 - 11.53
Sony A7rII - 11.38
Pentax K1 - 11.36
Canon 5DsR - 9.79
These look accurate from what I've seen.
The gap between 11.36 and 11.75 is just over 1/3 a stop difference. That's basically the manufacturing variation that could exist among 100 copies of the exact same sensor (and in fact, since the k1 and the Nikon basically have the same sensor, well...).
I haven't had chance to look at their methodology, but the numbers are plausible. There's no definitive measure of dynamic range, as it's defined in terms of the darkest thing you can record, but there are different thresholds for when something is so dark it is indistinguishable from the noise floor.
Steve Spencer wrote:
I am sure at some point the FF 35mm sensors will pull ahead of the 51MP Sony sensor in all these miniMF cameras, but I am also sure that there will be new miniMF sensors that will again best those 35mm FF sensors.
I'm pretty sure we'll see a new 35mm sensor from Sony this year, whilst the GFX 50s isn't even out yet, and I can't see them replacing it within 2 years. So it's possible that 35mm sensors are two generations ahead before it's replaced.
p.61 #8 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
fishjump wrote:
Steve, exactly.
I see better gradation on my larger prints from the 645z to my A7RII. Is it enough for me to go back to the Pentax? Based on size and portability, probably not (I am exclusively a landscape photographer, and travel a lot). However, this Fuji piques my interest.
I agree. I feel having the larger pixel size is more important as to the rendering and look of images. I have mentioned in a number of threads, that the A7s has superb tonality and graduation, albeit 12MP. Often with the high MP's, there is excellent sharpness and often I do see a difference in the graduation of subtle tones as compared with larger pixels sized sensors. The caveat is that we are comparing sensors within current time lines. I often look at the larger pixel sized sensors balancing it with the MP resolution needed. For this reason I have both the D750 and D810 for FF.
As mentioned, for many there is no need to move away from FF/35mm, but I am sure for many there will be a strong following for the GFX.
Jan 27, 2017 at 07:16 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.61 #9 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
Matt Grum wrote:
I haven't had chance to look at their methodology, but the numbers are plausible. There's no definitive measure of dynamic range, as it's defined in terms of the darkest thing you can record, but there are different thresholds for when something is so dark it is indistinguishable from the noise floor.
I'm pretty sure we'll see a new 35mm sensor from Sony this year, whilst the GFX 50s isn't even out yet, and I can't see them replacing it within 2 years. So it's possible that 35mm sensors are two generations ahead before it's replaced.
I don't know about when the next Fuji miniMF camera will come out. It will be interesting to see what they do. They have 3 APS-C cameras with essentially the same sensor. I would not be shocked to see them introduce a bit of a different style of camera and perhaps a new sensor by let's say Photokina 2018. It would even be consistent with their heritage to develop a rangefinder style miniMF camera. Imagine perhaps a Texas Leica style camera with a miniMF sensor. That would be kinda cool. Then to increase market share they drop the price of the GFX below $5,000. That could be a good strategy. You have to think that Pentax will be bugging Sony for a new sensor soon too. The 645Z is now a couple years old, so I wouldn't be surprised if both Pentax and Fuji had a new miniMF sensor that leapfrogs in 2018 whatever Sony does this year. Of course we won't know until then and at this point it is all speculation.
p.61 #10 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
charles.K wrote:
I agree. I feel having the larger pixel size is more important as to the rendering and look of images. I have mentioned in a number of threads, that the A7s has superb tonality and graduation, albeit 12MP. Often with the high MP's, there is excellent sharpness and often I do see a difference in the graduation of subtle tones as compared with larger pixels sized sensors. The caveat is that we are comparing sensors within current time lines. I often look at the larger pixel sized sensors balancing it with the MP resolution needed. For this reason I have both the D750 and D810 for FF.
As mentioned, for many there is no need to move away from FF/35mm, but I am sure for many there will be a strong following for the GFX.
I'd love to see the same image shot with both the GFX and A7R2 and compare the gradation. I'd also love to see an print made from both these images and see if I could tell them apart.
What I've seen of the GFX examples so far has been quite harsh...colours are very saturated, and the images had a lot of heavy post processing applied to them. I guess that is what marketing is all about.
I guess we'll have to wait until members have them in their hands and do some side by side comparisons...until then I'll stay skeptical.
p.61 #11 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
Steve Spencer wrote:
I don't know about when the next Fuji miniMF camera will come out. It will be interesting to see what they do. They have 3 APS-C cameras with essentially the same sensor. I would not be shocked to see them introduce a bit of a different style of camera and perhaps a new sensor by let's say Photokina 2018. It would even be consistent with their heritage to develop a rangefinder style miniMF camera. Imagine perhaps a Texas Leica style camera with a miniMF sensor. That would be kinda cool. Then to increase market share they drop the price of the GFX below $5,000. That could be a good strategy. You have to think that Pentax will be bugging Sony for a new sensor soon too. The 645Z is now a couple years old, so I wouldn't be surprised if both Pentax and Fuji had a new miniMF sensor that leapfrogs in 2018 whatever Sony does this year. Of course we won't know until then and at this point it is all speculation. ...Show more →
I read somewhere on a forum that the sensor and it's electronics are 80% of the cost of the GFX. I don't think there is much room to drop the price of the camera.
Jan 27, 2017 at 07:42 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.61 #12 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
chez wrote:
I read somewhere on a forum that the sensor and it's electronics are 80% of the cost of the GFX. I don't think there is much room to drop the price of the camera.
But that may change by Fall of next year and especially so, if Sony makes the next generation of miniMF sensors and the volume of the sensors increases with the new cameras from Fuji and Hasselblad (if they actually are able to deliver the camera).
p.61 #13 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
Steve Spencer wrote:
But that may change by Fall of next year and especially so, if Sony makes the next generation of miniMF sensors and the volume of the sensors increases with the new cameras from Fuji and Hasselblad (if they actually are able to deliver the camera).
Sure...but what volumes are we talking about here? Surely it must be a magnitude less than their full frame sensors. I feel the GFX and Hassy are niche cameras that won't sell in volumes.
Jan 27, 2017 at 08:16 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.61 #14 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
chez wrote:
Sure...but what volumes are we talking about here? Surely it must be a magnitude less than their full frame sensors. I feel the GFX and Hassy are niche cameras that won't sell in volumes.
I think the Hassy is designed as a camera for people who already shoot medium format and want to take that shooting on the go. It is a very cool looking camera and may sell some just based on that, but probably won't sell in huge volume. The Fuji may. Fuji has a pretty decent base of APS-C shooters and some of them may well migrate up. Others I suppose like me may want it for particular types of shooting. We'll see but I think it is hard to predict the sales volume at this point.
p.61 #15 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
Steve Spencer wrote:
I think the Hassy is designed as a camera for people who already shoot medium format and want to take that shooting on the go. It is a very cool looking camera and may sell some just based on that, but probably won't sell in huge volume. The Fuji may. Fuji has a pretty decent base of APS-C shooters and some of them may well migrate up. Others I suppose like me may want it for particular types of shooting. We'll see but I think it is hard to predict the sales volume at this point.
The price tag to get into this system will have a huge impact. It's a niche camera at a high price tag. Just cannot see any it sell at any kinds of numbers. I'd love to see this camera slip below $5,000...but I just see it happening unless sales are not meeting projections.
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.61 #18 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
wayne seltzer wrote:
Wondering how the L-bracket will be designed for this camera with the battery door and card slot on the left side?
That is an interesting question.There many be room for a short bracket for the portrait position under the battery door and that is what they might do, but a sliding design where the top part covering the battery door slides down into the bottom part would be preferable. I expect that RRS will come up with a really nice design.
p.61 #19 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)
chez wrote:
The price tag to get into this system will have a huge impact. It's a niche camera at a high price tag. Just cannot see any it sell at any kinds of numbers. I'd love to see this camera slip below $5,000...but I just see it happening unless sales are not meeting projections.
+1 @ not going to be a high volume item. Kinda reminds me of the Mamiya 7 concept ... larger than 35mm, highly portable for its film size and easy to grip. While we all know it isn't a true MF, it still is larger than FF and compared to the likes of the S2 system ... well, it's in reach for a whole lot more folks, even if it isn't gonna be for everyone.
