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Archive 2017 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)

  
 
gdanmitchell
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p.38 #1 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


rbf_ wrote:
Most likely or could've been in DR200 mode maybe.



That "200" is not an ISO value, but a percentage — it alters the way that DR is handled in jpg files to give the effect of better handling source images with a lot of image information near the ends of the scale.



Sep 24, 2016 at 10:55 AM
rbf_
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p.38 #2 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


gdanmitchell wrote:
That "200" is not an ISO value, but a percentage — it alters the way that DR is handled in jpg files to give the effect of better handling source images with a lot of image information near the ends of the scale.


Yeah but DR200 will boost the ISO one stop and underexpose the raw file, 400 is two stops. So if it were in DR200 and as it appears the dial is set to A your ISO would be 200. With the XP2 in DR200 you will be at 400 in A ISO. It'll also do some stuff to the jpg's if you're shooting them as well.



Sep 24, 2016 at 10:57 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.38 #3 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


rbf_ wrote:
Yeah but DR200 will boost the ISO one stop and underexpose the raw file, 400 is two stops. So if it were in DR200 and as it appears the dial is set to A your ISO would be 200. With the XP2 in DR200 you will be at 400 in A ISO. It'll also do some stuff to the jpg's if you're shooting them as well.


At least on the existing x-trans cameras, that is not my understanding of what it does. It doesn't "boost the ISO," but rather it changes the exposure and then alters the response curve in jpg files in ways that tend to maintain detail near the margins of the dynamic range.

In raw, which I'm convinced is how most (though not quite all) serious photographers will shoot the x-trans cameras and how even more will use the new miniMF camera, you'll still simply get the file from the exposure you choose and then you'll massage the scene data in post.

Dan



Sep 24, 2016 at 11:13 AM
rbf_
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p.38 #4 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


gdanmitchell wrote:
At least on the existing x-trans cameras, that is not my understanding of what it does. It doesn't "boost the ISO," but rather it changes the exposure and then alters the response curve in jpg files in ways that tend to maintain detail near the margins of the dynamic range.

In raw, which I'm convinced is how most (though not quite all) serious photographers will shoot the x-trans cameras and how even more will use the new miniMF camera, you'll still simply get the file from the exposure you choose and then you'll massage the scene data in post.

Dan


If you have the ISO in auto mode and DR set to 200% it will boost the ISO one stop for your exposure on existing camera's whether it's raw or jpeg. And that might explain why the camera was showing an ISO value of 200 as it appears to be in auto ISO mode. I'm not really sure how different photographer's shoot with regard to file format but I always record both since getting the XP2. I try to shoot daily and often share photos with friends on social media at different points in the day and would almost never have time to stop do a raw conversion first. I find since getting the XP2 and shooting like this I'm shooting much more often and attribute that to having files ready to share and a wifi connection as a sort of incentive to shoot more. I personally save all the raw's to develop shots I really like when I have time, which is at most a couple hours a week. I've heard Wedding photographer's also shoot jpeg these days but haven't really been around that myself in a long time so I don't really know. I'd imagine if they did it would mostly be for candid's but not sure what the common practice is these days.



Sep 24, 2016 at 11:22 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.38 #5 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


rbf_ wrote:
I'm just saying that if you have the ISO in auto mode and DR set to 200% it will boost the ISO one stop for your exposure on existing camera's whether it's raw or not. And that might explain why the camera was showing an ISO value of 200. I'm not really sure how different photographer's shoot with regard to file format but I always record both since getting the XP2. I try to shoot daily and often share photos with friends on social media at different points in the day and would almost never have time to stop do
...Show more

I don't believe it "boosts the ISO." It uses what the ISO is and alters the exposure and then the curve applied to it.

the purpose of these modes is not to give you "higher ISO," but rather to retain detail near the ends of the usable dynamic range. In essence, the camera is doing the sort of thing that a careful photographer, previsualizing the output, might do at the time of exposure if faced with a similar issue.

Let's say that I'm shooting at what ever ISO I'm using — let's make it ISO 200. I'm photographing a scene with a relatively conservative dynamic range and no particularly challenges at the dark or bright ends of the luminosity scale. I probably expose for the average of the scene, so say it in a simple way, without too much concern about the extremes.

Let's say that I'm shooting a different scene, also at ISO 200. But this time there are a lot of very bright values, and I want to retain the subtle differentiation among them in my final image. I may reduce the exposure just a bit in order to "protect the highlights" and provide a bit more headroom for adjustments in post, where I may steepen the luminosity curve in the brightest tones.

Let's say I'm shooting a third scene, also at ISO 200. This time let's say that the dynamic range is extremely wide, and that the scene includes interesting details in both the shadows and in the very bright areas. I'll likely take care to avoid blowing the highlights, with the expectation that I'll need to do some work in post both to increase the curve steepness in the bright tones and bring up the shadow low luminosity areas in post. Here, again, I'll possibly "under-expose" a bit, knowing that this will give me the best balance of scene detail to work with in post.

When shooting raw with these methods in mind, I can do some very sophisticated things in post, including planning to adjust different areas of the image in different ways — perhaps applying some processes only to bright areas and others only to dark areas, while keeping them away from middle tones.

When you choose one of the modes you mention on the x-trans Fujifilm cameras, the camera is attempting (with surprising success) to automate the process of doing something similar in-camera rather than waiting for you to do it in post. Again, to the best of my knowledge, the ISO does not change here either. Instead, exposure is altered, and different curves are applied to the conversion in order to expand the highlight (and probably shadow) details at the potential expense of some mid-tone values, though I expect that the camera's algorithms make some beneficial adjustments even there.

Dan



Sep 24, 2016 at 12:14 PM
rbf_
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p.38 #6 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


gdanmitchell wrote:
I don't believe it "boosts the ISO." It uses what the ISO is and alters the exposure and then the curve applied to it.

the purpose of these modes is not to give you "higher ISO," but rather to retain detail near the ends of the usable dynamic range. In essence, the camera is doing the sort of thing that a careful photographer, previsualizing the output, might do at the time of exposure if faced with a similar issue.

Let's say that I'm shooting at what ever ISO I'm using — let's make it ISO 200. I'm photographing a scene with a
...Show more

It is trying to protect highlights by underexposing. I think they expect the typical use case to be someone who has DR and ISO both set to auto and it tries to detect high DR scenes and protect the highlights by underexposing one or two stops.

If you explicitly choose the ISO I'm not sure that it does anything, I just tried and it set it to DR100 which I think is just normal. But if you have it in one of the auto ISO modes it will bump the ISO one stop for DR200 and 2 stops for DR400, I think it's also applying some sophisticated processing to the jpeg's as well. You can try it yourself we both have the XP2, put ISO to A and set DR explicitly to 200% and the lowest ISO value it will choose for the exposure will be 400 with the XP2, if you set DR to 400% it will choose not lower than 800. The GFX camera in the picture appears to have the ISO dial set to A so I think this is the reason it's ISO was at 200.

If you have the ISO manually set to 200 it will turn off the DR mode (set to 100) and gray out the options for selecting DR200 or DR400. So I'm not sure it does anything out of the ordinary at DR100 or ISO 200.

Here's another way to describe the behavior of DR mode, ISO and auto ISO.

If you have auto ISO set to a range of 200 - 1600.

1) If DR is set to 100% your ISO range will be 200 - 1600, normal.
2) If DR is set to 200% your available ISO range will be 400 - 1600.
3) If DR is set to 400% your available ISO range will be 800 - 1600.
4) If DR is on auto it will try and detect the setting on it's own.

If ISO is manually set to 200, DR200 and DR400 are disabled.

If ISO is manually set to 400, DR200 is available and DR400 is disabled.

If ISO is manually set to 800, DR200 and DR400 are both available.

This came up on another forum before and it's fairly non obvious behavior that I don't think gets described anywhere very well.


EDIT: I think these two articles help to explain how this feature is protecting highlights, why it seems so counterintuitive and what the effect is on both raw files and jpeg's.

http://adambonn.com/my-love-affair-with-the-fujifilm-x-pro1/xp1-eleven/

http://www.clarkvision.com/articles/iso/





Sep 24, 2016 at 12:31 PM
freaklikeme
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p.38 #7 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


Does anyone know what the "C" stands for on the ISO dial? I get A being auto, but is C custom?


Sep 24, 2016 at 03:24 PM
rbf_
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p.38 #8 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


freaklikeme wrote:
Does anyone know what the "C" stands for on the ISO dial? I get A being auto, but is C custom?


Yeah it allows you to assign those settings to any of the customizable function buttons.



Sep 24, 2016 at 03:28 PM
freaklikeme
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p.38 #9 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


Thanks!


Sep 24, 2016 at 04:03 PM
Jman13
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p.38 #10 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


The best way to think of the DR modes is that they shoot underexposed by 1 stop for 200, 2 stops for 400 and 3 stops for 800, and then boost the underexposed image back to the correct brightness in post. This is tagged in the RAW files too, so your underexposed image in LR will be boosted by a stop or two (depending on the setting) when you import it. This preserves an extra stop, 2 stops and 3 stops of highlight detail at the expense of shadow noise. It works fairly well, actually, and for JPEG shooting it can be really nice, as ISO 400 JPEGs from Fuji show very little noise. You can push Fuji shadows a LOT, but highlight headroom is generally only around 1.5 stops, so doing this sort of automates a sort of centering of the RAW data, taking away a stop of shadow headroom and giving it back in the highlights.


Sep 24, 2016 at 04:49 PM
rbf_
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p.38 #11 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


Jman13 wrote:
The best way to think of the DR modes is that they shoot underexposed by 1 stop for 200, 2 stops for 400 and 3 stops for 800, and then boost the underexposed image back to the correct brightness in post. This is tagged in the RAW files too, so your underexposed image in LR will be boosted by a stop or two (depending on the setting) when you import it. This preserves an extra stop, 2 stops and 3 stops of highlight detail at the expense of shadow noise. It works fairly well, actually, and for JPEG shooting it
...Show more

This is a very good description, I can't describe how flummoxed I was that time when I couldn't figure why my auto ISO program would never choose a value below 800. I literally thought it was bugged It was hard to find info on exactly what it was doing



Sep 24, 2016 at 08:24 PM
alundeb
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p.38 #12 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


Jman13 wrote:
The best way to think of the DR modes is that they shoot underexposed by 1 stop for 200, 2 stops for 400 and 3 stops for 800, and then boost the underexposed image back to the correct brightness in post. This is tagged in the RAW files too, so your underexposed image in LR will be boosted by a stop or two (depending on the setting) when you import it. This preserves an extra stop, 2 stops and 3 stops of highlight detail at the expense of shadow noise. It works fairly well, actually, and for JPEG shooting it
...Show more

But does DR200 mode in ISO 200 use a different exposure (aperture and exposure time) than DR100 mode in ISO 200? I don't think so.

There are two fundamentally different ways to implement a DR mode that increases highlight recovery.

One way is to just underexpose at the same hardware ISO, tag the underexposure, and automatically compensate for in-camera jpg and in raw conversion software. That would give a true underexposure.

The other way is to keep the same exposure, but adjust the hardware ISO down and then underexpose relative to the saturation of the hardware ISO used. It will keep the same exposure in the common meaning of "exposure", but in a sense you can call it underexposure becuase it gives a lower signal relative to the hardware saturation point.

The fundamental difference between the two approaches, is that in the first case you get more photon shot noise, as if the image was shot at higher ISO. In the second case you get the same photon shot noie, but more highlight recovery and more read noise.

I don't think you actually mean that Fuji does it as in the first case, but it does sound like it if you only explain it as underexposure without saying that that the hardware uses a lower ISO.

In order to not cause confusion about what ISO was used, the image that was actually taken at hardware ISO 100 will be tagged as ISO 200 in the files. This is why you don't see the cahnge of hardware ISO by just examining the files. It is also the only alternative that actually explains why the lowest ISO settings are not avaialble in DR200, DR400 and DR 800 modes.



Sep 25, 2016 at 02:28 AM
Jman13
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p.38 #13 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


Set to ISO 200 at DR200, the camera is actually shooting at ISO 100 and boosting the exposure to the equivalent ISO 200 output by pushing the RAW file, so it's the second case.


Sep 25, 2016 at 10:59 AM
rbf_
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p.38 #14 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


Jman13 wrote:
Set to ISO 200 at DR200, the camera is actually shooting at ISO 100 and boosting the exposure to the equivalent ISO 200 output by pushing the RAW file, so it's the second case.


You mentioned a DR800 mode, do you actually have access to a preproduction unit?



Sep 25, 2016 at 11:08 AM
RustyBug
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p.38 #15 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


Jman13 wrote:

the camera is actually shooting at ISO 100 .


Can this be manually set (menu options, etc.) to simply shoot @ 100 without the corresponding PUSH being made by the camera ... thereby allowing those decisions to be made @ external PP?




Sep 25, 2016 at 11:46 AM
rbf_
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p.38 #16 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


RustyBug wrote:
Can this be manually set (menu options, etc.) to simply shoot @ 100 without the corresponding PUSH being made by the camera ... thereby allowing those decisions to be made @ external PP?



If you set the DR mode to DR100 it is effectively off. Also if you set the ISO manually to the base ISO, in this case 100 it disables DR mode altogether even it was on.



Sep 25, 2016 at 11:51 AM
Jman13
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p.38 #17 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


rbf_ wrote:
You mentioned a DR800 mode, do you actually have access to a preproduction unit?


No, but the reports I've seen show a DR800 mode on the GFX. The DR200 and 400 modes are on existing Fuji cameras, so I have experience with them.



Sep 25, 2016 at 11:54 AM
Jman13
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p.38 #18 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


RustyBug wrote:
Can this be manually set (menu options, etc.) to simply shoot @ 100 without the corresponding PUSH being made by the camera ... thereby allowing those decisions to be made @ external PP?



No...but you can always shoot at ISO 100 with EC set -1 below where you're typically meter, which is exactly what the camera does.



Sep 25, 2016 at 11:56 AM
flash
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p.38 #19 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


Does anyone know how Fuji intend to handle long exposures and dark frame subtraction on the miniMF camera? Although it's somewhat bulky, the Pentax 645Z does essentially unlimited exposure times (battery dependant. the longest I've done so far is 22 minutes), it has selectable dark frame subtraction and it has a *native* ISO 50 (it's a pull but Pentax say with no difference in DR??). The Pentax batteries also seem to last several decades on a single charge.

The Fuji is incredibly interesting because of its size/weight and the advantages of an EVF. However I've realised that as much as I like the concept, if long exposures are limited or come with mandatory dark frame subtraction then I'm probably not interested, as those have become features I've really come to depend on. I also wonder how long a mirrorless battery is going to last on that sensor size running all the time for live view. The mandatory dark frame is also the major reason i don't use my A7R2 or Leica S for landscape photography. It actually really bugs me when it's mandatory rather than optional.

What I really need/want is for Pentax to release the two new D zooms they've been promising for a couple of years. Especially the 80-160 replacement. However it's more likely that Fuji will have released every lens on their roadmap before that happens....

Gordon



Sep 26, 2016 at 01:40 AM
Orestis.Ch
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p.38 #20 · Pre-order: Fujifilm GFX 50S Medium Format body ($6,499)


It would be really nice if they had made the mount a bit larger. Just enough to accommodate the largest sensors available in medium format (like the 100mp sensor in PhaseOne XF). Now, since i doubt their lenses will be able to cover a larger circle, they will always be stuck in that size (which is as much larger as GFX is from FF)


Sep 26, 2016 at 01:55 AM
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